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The way forward for LC2021

History Queen

I'm interested in the views of other teachers as to what should happen to assess the work of LC2021 students. With growing calls for cancellation of the exams and predicted grades, I fear we are sleep walking in to a repeat of last year's debacle.

My personal view is the exams should go ahead as scheduled but perhaps a further review of papers to allow for more choice should happen, suggestions submitted from subject associations maybe?

As regards projects/orals/practicals I can only speak to my own subjects. In History I feel the project should go ahead as planned.

What do others think?

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Dickie10

Hi everyine, history teacher here, slightly confused. The LC RSR, students that are not intending to sit the exam, are still required to do the RSR , I am right in this?

km79

Dickie10 wrote: »

Hi everyine, history teacher here, slightly confused. The LC RSR, students that are not intending to sit the exam, are still required to do the RSR , I am right in this?

If they are not sitting exam they do not have to complete coursework

rainbowtrout

Treppen wrote: »

Thanks for correcting.

Given the recent simplification then predicted grades have to rise in tandem.

Treppen

I'm out of maths teaching for a while and a relative was asking what's the best thing for daughter to study for paper O level. She said she only has to do 4 section A and Two section B.

They're very week and failed a good few recent tests!
I think it could be damage reduction at this stage. I'll be giving her a hand next week on Paper 2 over zoom so gotta make it easy... Maybe just basic intro to each topic like coordinate geometry of circle .I'll Probably avoid stuff like proofs and probability/confidence intervals as she's week on English (dyslexic).

Any suggestions?

Dickie10

km79 wrote: »

If they are not sitting exam they do not have to complete coursework

I have been told the dept guidelines is that all project work is submitted by due date either way.

am_zarathustra

Treppen wrote: »

I'm out of maths teaching for a while and a relative was asking what's the best thing for daughter to study for paper O level. She said she only has to do 4 section A and Two section B.

They're very week and failed a good few recent tests!
I think it could be damage reduction at this stage. I'll be giving her a hand next week on Paper 2 over zoom so gotta make it easy... Maybe just basic intro to each topic like coordinate geometry of circle .I'll Probably avoid stuff like proofs and probability/confidence intervals as she's week on English (dyslexic).

Any suggestions?

For paper 2 the big hitters are Trig and Stats, you'd assume a long Qs on both and maybe one or two short for your trouble. Then circle and line fill the rest in.

Stats is repetitive, make sure she knows how to use the calculator for mean and SD, basics of null hypothesis, central tendencies and graphing.

Circle is more predictable than the line (don't forget area of triangle here with transformation) but you could train to pick the right formula by looking for particular words and then subbing in, you'll comfortably pass most questions with that.

Paper one, algebra and calculas, at OL you can nearly predict the questions so again you can make quick progress and it's essentially guaranteed as a long and short and probably more

Make sure she can graph, you'd be surprised

Wombatman

The easier exams means marks are going to coalesce towards the higher end. It's going to be very difficult to identify a students true ability. Applying the curve could see a big shift where there might only be a couple of marks between students. You could see a cases where higher, middle and lower H1s become H1s, H2s and H3s.

Detailed precise marking schemes will be very important to help separate the wheat from the chaff.

Grind schools must be $hitting themselves because their higher performing students will have no real way of differentiating themselves because of the limited test base. They won't be able to rely on historic school performance either.

No way will exam performance impact on the standardisation of accredited grades or vice versa.

Wombatman

Treppen wrote: »

Thanks for correcting.

Given the recent simplification then predicted grades have to rise in tandem.

Not true. Remember you are predicting based on the 2021 exam and a national standardisation process.
If the standardisation process is carried out correctly, the distribution of grades should be the same as other years.

Whether it can justly categorizes individual students based on their ability is another question altogether.

Wombatman

Strangely enough I would argue that this year, accredited grades will probably be a more accurate measure, than the exam itself.

rainbowtrout

Dickie10 wrote: »

I have been told the dept guidelines is that all project work is submitted by due date either way.

A principal's opinion on what they'd like to do does not supersede the guidelines. If a student has opted out of doing the exam and is taking the predicted grade only they do not have to submit project work.

https://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2021-press-releases/PR21-02-17.html

The Minister’s strongly held view is that students must be afforded the choice as to whether to sit the examinations, including the oral and coursework components, as it would be entirely unfair to students to require them to participate in these elements, given the disruption in learning which has occurred. The oral and coursework components of the examinations will not form part of the Accredited Grade process.

You can advise them to complete the coursework for you, but you can't force them to do it.

jimmytwotimes 2013

rainbowtrout wrote: »

You can advise them to complete the coursework for you, but you can't force them to do it.

Students not being given an option on this by some schools.

Dickie10

My problem is I need to stick to the school script and just repeat the mantra. Do i just let them hand me anything at all in on April 23rd or nothing , if not doing the exam.

History Queen

Dickie10 wrote: »

My problem is I need to stick to the school script and just repeat the mantra. Do i just let them hand me anything at all in on April 23rd or nothing , if not doing the exam.

You need to have that discussion with your principal. The guidelines are clear.

Edit: that being said, if they don't hand it in by the deadline, just move on.

Leftwaffe

Im hearing this morning that even if students opted for a predicated grade in the portal (thus no oral required) they can now sit the oral next week incase they change their mind about sitting the exam when the portal reopens at a later date.

Can anyone confirm this?

This would change scheduling & lists, etc. (A list which I haven't got yet from the Dept. mind you!)

km79

Leftwaffe wrote: »

Im hearing this morning that even if students opted for a predicated grade in the portal (thus no oral required) they can now sit the oral next week incase they change their mind about sitting the exam when the portal reopens at a later date.

Can anyone confirm this?

This would change scheduling & lists, etc. (A list which I haven't got yet from the Dept. mind you!)

Oh
My
God

km79

Leftwaffe wrote: »

Bit of panic here this morning over this. I haven't seen anything official but a member of management has this info.

If this doesn’t end up being a total shambles then once again like everything else it will be purely down to school staff going over and above .

Wombatman

Leftwaffe wrote: »

Bit of panic here this morning over this. I haven't seen anything official but a member of management has this info.

Don't know where it is coming from. Instructions very clear.

However, as some important examination events will be completed by then (the Orals in Irish and the Modern Foreign Language subjects and many of the completion dates for coursework) it is really important that you understand the consequences of your decision making. For example, if you opt for an Accredited Grade in a language subject now but you do not opt for the examination, you will not be taking the Oral test when they take place between 26 March and 15 April. If you then change your mind and decide you want to sit the examination you will have lost the opportunity to take the Oral test. While you might go on to take the written examination in the subject, you will not be able to achieve full marks as you will forfeit the marks for the Oral test.

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/306f8-leaving-certificate-candidate-self-service-portal-2021-before-you-start-guide/

Treppen

Wombatman wrote: »

Not true. Remember you are predicting based on the 2021 exam and a national standardisation process.
If the standardisation process is carried out correctly, the distribution of grades should be the same as other years.

Whether it can justly categorizes individual students based on their ability is another question altogether.

True that, it should be interesting to see how they bump down all the teachers marks though.

There's a bit of an incongruity there too:

"If the standardisation process is carried out correctly, the distribution of grades should be the same as other years. "

...Because written exams this year can't be the same as results in other years (because of simplification and extra time to do questions) they'll have to shoot up. And you simply can't push >10% of students getting H1s in subjects down to H2s if there's no wrong answers on their exam!!

So are accredited grades truly standardised to what students would get if they had sat this year OR other years? Documentation says that it's how they would perform this year.

True/False : The 2 bell curves this year should be the same as each other?

rainbowtrout

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Students not being given an option on this by some schools.

It’s not up to schools to decide and make up their own rules

Leftwaffe

Wombatman wrote: »

Don't know where it is coming from. Instructions very clear.

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/306f8-leaving-certificate-candidate-self-service-portal-2021-before-you-start-guide/

So it’s not the case? Surely our member of management has got word about this from somewhere?

History Queen

Leftwaffe wrote: »

So it’s not the case? Surely our member of management has got word about this from somewhere?

Ask them directly. Its the only way of knowing.

Wombatman

Treppen wrote: »

True that, it should be interesting to see how they bump down all the teachers marks though.

There's a bit of an incongruity there too:

...Because written exams this year can't be the same as results in other years (because of simplification and extra time to do questions) they'll have to shoot up. And you simply can't push >10% of students getting H1s in subjects down to H2s if there's no wrong answers on their exam!!

So are accredited grades truly standardised to what students would get if they had sat this year OR other years? Documentation says that it's how they would perform this year.

True/False : The 2 bell curves this year should be the same as each other?

True. The distribution of marks should follow the same pattern of previous years. This could involve big shifts based on only a couple of marks because of the narrow test base this year.

Simple example:
If 20% of sitting students of are given got a H3 in years gone by, give or take 1-2%, then for AG marks and exam marks, 20% of students should get a H3 give or take a couple of %.

This could still result in an individual student a getting an exam grade of H4 and an AG grade of H2 but that's a different story.

Leftwaffe

History Queen wrote: »

Ask them directly. Its the only way of knowing.

I have. They seem confident but I’m still to see a document for this.

Wombatman

Leftwaffe wrote: »

So it’s not the case? Surely our member of management has got word about this from somewhere?

...........or they could be smoking crack.

Leftwaffe

There is a line in the 'SEC Oral guidance to school management' which states the following:

"If candidates want to present for interview and who are not listed on the roll, the examination aide must write their name, examination number and date of birth on the blank page of the roll"

Would this suggest they can still show up and do the oral despite opting for an accredited grade?

History Queen

Leftwaffe wrote: »

I have. They seem confident but I’m still to see a document for this.

Did they say what they were basing it on?

deiseindublin

I don't see how stats from previous years can be used this year.

When you give more choice, and less question, results have to improve. It's ridiculous to expect same bell curve, unless SEC intend on forcing a bell curve.

Purefrank128

Treppen wrote: »

True/False : The 2 bell curves this year should be the same as each other?

FALSE!

There is no reason to think that the cohort taking the exams will have the same ability as the cohort taking accredited grades.

Everyone - or almost - everyone is going to get an accredited grade. I think it's safe to assume that most students who sit the exams are at the top end - they think their exam result could improve their grade and they don't mind doing the work to show that.

The grade distribution of the group sitting exams should be better than that of the group getting an accredited grade (i.e. everyone), which should be better than that of the group getting an accredited grade only.

But none of these grade distributions should be like those produced by exams in 2019 and previously.

Wombatman

deiseindublin wrote: »

I don't see how stats from previous years can be used this year.

When you give more choice, and less question, results have to improve. It's ridiculous to expect same bell curve, unless SEC intend on forcing a bell curve.

They force it every year. That's the whole point of standardisation.

Take the Leaving Cert exam in Higher level English as an example.

The proportion of students who achieved a H1 (90 to 100 per cent) in 2019 was 2.9 per cent; the equivalent figure for 2018 was 2.9 per cent; in 2017 it was 2.9 per cent.

The pattern is repeated further down the grades.

The proportion of students who achieved a H2 (80 to 90 per cent) in 2019 was 10 per cent; in 2018 it was 10 per cent; and in 2017 it was 10.7 per cent.

Similarly, the proportion of students who achieved a H3 (70 to 80 per cent) in 2019 was 20.4 per cent; in 2018 it was 20.6 per cent.

Normally they standardise using adjusted making schemes relative to emerging trends that year. How they do it this year is anybody's guess.

deiseindublin

I understand the bell curve, but the reason other year stats are the same is because the exam is supposed to be of equal difficulty. It's not equal this year, so grades SHOULD go up if similar standard of answers is required.