nav[aria-label="Primary Navigation"] { padding: 0; & ul { list-style: none; width: 100%; display: flex; flex-direction: row; justify-content: start; align-items: start; gap: 30px; padding: 0; & li { margin: 0; } & ul li { list-style: none; } } }

Child Item

United Ireland....... Persuade the unionists.....

martinedwards

Ok instead of the usual, yellow numberplate/petrol bomb as soon as you cross the border/Derry girls are easy thread......

Boards seems to be a strongly Pro united Ireland community

Ok, lets say that there is a border poll.

Having a minority with strong anti ruler views has historically not been the most peaceful system in the North.

so,

how would you persuade the folk that are terrified of all the things that they PERCEIVE to be against them in an all island Irish nation?

and lets be honest, "Suck it up, my auntie Brigit was spat on by a brit soldier in 1972" isn't going to persuade the likes of Sammy Wilson that it's a good idea.

Discuss!

Find more posts tagged with

Quick Links

Comments

Edgware

bilbot79 wrote: »

The answer is to give every single unionist' in the north a 50k relocation bonus to move to the UK. The British and Irish governments split the bill. Everybody wins.

Why should we subsidise Winston and Norman to buy houses in Glasgow?

antgal23

Five Eighth wrote: »

Fair enough. Understand why you would take that view. There have been and are a number of threads discussing Northern Ireland and it's place in the modern world. From what I can gather, posters who take a similar position to your goodself don't ever mention any acknowledgement of responsibility to those of our fellow Irish men and women who live in the six counties. It's always about the Unionist community and their hardline attitude towards a UI. If a majority in the NI vote for a UI, is there any duty upon us Irish to welcome our fellow Irish people 'home'?

No one in the South has a monopoly on being Irish so no need to " welcome" anyone

For a new Ireland to work it won't be a UI as one recognises today. It might be an island of 4 provinces, where some powers are devolved, of course there'll be a national parliament regional identities should be promoted.

antgal23

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The North needs to sort out it's social and economic crap before it should be allowed into the Republic. It simply has far too much nasty baggage, and the Unionists are only part of that. The Republicans are just as bad, and are highly unlikely to calmly settle down to play good citizens in Ireland.

I think the threat of a United Ireland would get me off my arse, and willing to publicly campaign against it. Unification would fck this country up for decades (if not longer) due having to deal with all that ****e.

Thanks very much for sharing your opinion

It's well thought out, balanced, educated and shows a deep understanding of the 6 counties

StevenToast

A confederate united Ireland...leave the 6 counties in the commonwealth...its a token thing...

Once elizabeth windsor dies and charles takes over...the monarchy will lose its "appeal"...

Give unionists a few token gestures and that will quieten them after a few years...

Capt'n Midnight

Room1o1 wrote: »

If a united Ireland did happen would it mean a new state and a new constitution? Would need to think about that alot first

What would need to be changed ?

Maybe we could roll back Articles 2 and 3 :pac:
But there'd be no need. So it's not going to happen, no need to think about it.

Politically FF and/or FG will horse trade all night with the DUP in preference to SF. At this stage I'm not sure the Green party would deal with SF if there was another option. And the parties of the left coming together as a rival bloc ? Dream on.

Might be interesting to see how the balance between the UUP and DUP goes.

The SDLP and FF might merge.

It would be interesting. But whatever the combination any new government would be centre right

Del2005

Renno123 wrote: »

Sorry I don't understand the first paragraph. The red cross in the union jack flag is the red cross of St Patrick, which makes up the Irish connection.
My point was that even though this is on the flag, Irish people do not associate that flag with Ireland, the same way the tri colour is not seen by unionism to represent them.

That's my point. We'll never agree on what our new flag or national anthem will be. How will we deal with the difficult bits? The vote is the easy bit, what we vote for is what will kill this united Ireland social media hype.

Leave it a few decades and demographics will give us a United Republic of Ireland or vote in a few years for some bastard State that neither side is happy with..

VinLieger

Renno123 wrote: »

Yes that is exactly my point. The orange on the tri colour represents unionism/protestantism/orangism as you said.
But that community do not associate the tri colour with that. It is associated with republicanism.
It is like how Irish people do not look at a union jack and feel represented even though Ireland is represented on the flag.
A new flag would be needed, one which all sides can feel represents them.

Fair enough but i honestly believe if this is all discussed correctly prior to a reunification poll in the south where the specifics of how and what would begin happening if both votes succeeded then i dont think it would pass here.

I do not believe the vast majority of those who say they would vote yes have ever considered the idea of a new flag let alone a new anthem and the hundreds of other changes that would be required to appease unionists.

Renno123

Del2005 wrote: »

The Tri colour with the Union Flag, we aren't a boat, inset in the neutral section and The Soldiers Song as our national anthem. We are now fully inclusive for the flag and anthem.

With Scotland looking more and more likely to leave the union shouldn't an option in the vote be a merger of Northern Ireland and Scotland?

Sorry I don't understand the first paragraph. The red cross in the union jack flag is the red cross of St Patrick, which makes up the Irish connection.
My point was that even though this is on the flag, Irish people do not associate that flag with Ireland, the same way the tri colour is not seen by unionism to represent them.

Renno123

VinLieger wrote: »

Emm you know the orange on the tricolour is intended to represent the protestants in NI?

If a new flag is required i would absolutely vote against reunification.

Yes that is exactly my point. The orange on the tri colour represents unionism/protestantism/orangism as you said.
But that community do not associate the tri colour with that. It is associated with republicanism.
It is like how Irish people do not look at a union jack and feel represented even though Ireland is represented on the flag.
A new flag would be needed, one which all sides can feel represents them.

Del2005

Renno123 wrote: »

The union jack flag is also inclusive. Ireland is still represented on this flag, yet we don't see it as a representation of our people. This is the same reason there will be a new Irish flag in a U.I

The Tri colour with the Union Flag, we aren't a boat, inset in the neutral section and The Soldiers Song as our national anthem. We are now fully inclusive for the flag and anthem.

With Scotland looking more and more likely to leave the union shouldn't an option in the vote be a merger of Northern Ireland and Scotland?

ShatterAlan

martinedwards wrote: »

Ok instead of the usual, yellow numberplate/petrol bomb as soon as you cross the border/Derry girls are easy thread......

Boards seems to be a strongly Pro united Ireland community

Ok, lets say that there is a border poll.

Having a minority with strong anti ruler views has historically not been the most peaceful system in the North.

so,

how would you persuade the folk that are terrified of all the things that they PERCEIVE to be against them in an all island Irish nation?

and lets be honest, "Suck it up, my auntie Brigit was spat on by a brit soldier in 1972" isn't going to persuade the likes of Sammy Wilson that it's a good idea.

Discuss!

"Discuss"

What is this a bloody exam question?

[Deleted User]

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Fair bang of Judenfrei off these sort of attitudes.

Not sure why you are quoting my post, it’s pretty clear I’m referring to those unionists who couldn’t stomach a united ireland.

VinLieger

Renno123 wrote: »

The union jack flag is also inclusive. Ireland is still represented on this flag, yet we don't see it as a representation of our people. This is the same reason there will be a new Irish flag in a U.I

Emm you know the orange on the tricolour is intended to represent the protestants in NI?

If a new flag is required i would absolutely vote against reunification.

Zebra3

Renno123 wrote: »

The union jack flag is also inclusive. Ireland is still represented on this flag, yet we don't see it as a representation of our people. This is the same reason there will be a new Irish flag in a U.I

The Union Jack is not inclusive.

It claims jurisdiction over all of Ireland.

The flag was altered in 1801 to reflect that but was never realtered in 1922 to reflect the new reality.

Renno123

Del2005 wrote: »

Why do we need to change our already inclusive flag to another inclusive flag? Look at the still ongoing hatred of Ireland's Call to see how people will react. to changing our anthem.

The union jack flag is also inclusive. Ireland is still represented on this flag, yet we don't see it as a representation of our people. This is the same reason there will be a new Irish flag in a U.I

[Deleted User]

Democracy will have to win. If a majority in both jurisdictions vote for a UI it just has to happen, and, while it is very unfortunate that one generation has to deal with the fallout, that's how it is. Unfortunately there's not going to be a consensus, more chance of Gerry Adams becoming head of the commonwealth. There's a need to start planning right now for a unionist minority in a united Ireland. The political establishment doesn't want to know, but it is imminent.

trixi001

VinLieger wrote: »

Those polls should be taken with a grain of salt, they are done without any details being put to them like the massive economic and security implications not to mention the very real question and possibility of needing to change our flag and national anthem and possibly a lot more to appease the unionists.

Your attitude by the way is exactly the same as the bexiteers, any poll on such a divisive and massive change in the status quo should never require a simple majority of 50.1%.

Simply ignoring the wishes and concerns of a large proportion of people North and South of the border so you can masturbate over your united Ireland fantasy becoming a reality will not lead to a successful reunification.

I have never understood this argument - Democracy means accepting the will of the majority - if 50.1% of people vote for something, why should the minority actually win the vote via nothing changing?

I can understand that a small majority means things are more difficult, but it doesn't mean the majority should not be respected

The Nationalists in the North have had to live as per Democracy for years as the majority in NI were in favour it being part of the UK, but the tide is turning. and in the not too distant future 50%+1 may be in favour of a United & Free Ireland, why should the small majority matter..its still a majority, refusing to accept it is refusing democracy to the same people that have had to accept the democratic will of the people for 100 years before!

As for how it will work from an Irish perspective - it is the opportunity to create a "New" Ireland - perhaps consider decentralising power - give each province some form of super council.
Consider the how good elements of the North could be rolled out throughout Ireland (NHS?)

It will not simply be a matter of the North joining the South, it will be the 2 states merging to create a new state.

And yes, the unionists will need to be considered, as even in a UI they still form a sizeable majority (Roughly half of the North is unionist - they will be about 14% of the overall Irish population) - and considering how often there is currently a coalition government they may form part of the government some terms.
The unionist traditions are already honoured in Donegal - an orange order parade in Rossnowlagh is held every year without any problems.

For the sake of Long Term Peace Ireland should be united - yes in the short term there may be problems but with the support of the UK, EU, & USA (and i do believe there will be significant support - financial and otherwise) these can be sorted.

Look through history - Irish "Troubles" kick off roughly every 30-50 years
1798
1848 - Young Irelanders
1867 - Fenian Rising
1916 - Easter Rising, Then Civil War
1940's - Northern Campaign
1970's - 2000 - Troubles

Once the older generations die, and the actual reality of war/revolution are forgotten, there is always a possibility of violence restarting in the North

The North has seen sustained periods of violence since partition, the South (other than the immediate period after partition) has seen little or none despite there being people of a unionist mindset living in it for a long number of years - i would said very few people in the South now want to join the UK.
The same didn't happen in the North, those not wanting to live in the UK, never forgot they are Irish, their Children won't forget - its an Island, it will always be strange for one part of the Island to belong to another Island - and this will lead to simmering tensions for years to come with the possibility for significant violence

For the sake of my children and their children i really hope for a united Ireland in the not too distant future

VinLieger

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Fair bang of Judenfrei off these sort of attitudes.

What do you think Tiocfaidh ár lá actually means to a sizeable number of republicans?

For Forks Sake

Deleted User wrote: »

If we could unify and then fast forward 20 years things would be great.

Arlene herself said she would leave if unity happened. Hopefully the hardcore would move to Scotland or England if they really couldn’t stomach a UI. Maybe the British and EU and maybe even the US could provide grants to relocate them.

PokeHerKing wrote: »

If the majority on the island vote for a UI, once we've the Irish army on the streets of the six counties we can start to round up all the Sammy Wilsons and have the container ship waiting to sail them all back to Scotland.

85603 wrote: »

Wouldn't be arsed pandering to them.

I'd offer them re-partition, as what good are they to us? Just going to be trouble.
Give them a little Israel up in Antrim.

If I was a unionist I'd take that offer since time is not on their side.

Fair bang of Judenfrei off these sort of attitudes.

astrofool

We'll need to do whatever gets the "for" vote in the republic to about 55%, if it's a landslide in the republic, the sacrifices we're making (e.g. flag, anthem, language declarations and on and on) won't have gone far enough to get the North onside.

Mad_maxx

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Getting the majority of unionists on board is a bit of a nonsense, sadly there's no way that's going to happen in time, partition will almost certainly end first. Even the likes of Varadkar and M Martin know this is the case.

It's true that there is more conservatism in the north, especially among Protestants. But the divide is so strong that DUP supporters won't come over to nationalism.

im not in favour of pandering to unionists at all and i take the view that nothing has ever been expected of unionism , from the media down here most of all , unionism has never been once asked to atone for their behaviour down the years

i dont view joining the commonwealth as pandering but i dont believe we need more than a proper majority to proceed either , this " we must wait until unionists are ready " could mean anything and is spectacularly vague

[Deleted User]

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Not everyone views abortion and " LGBT " issues as hugely important

I would not be relying on those to gather support amongst young unionists

Both sides up North are considerably more socially conservative than we are down here

No coincidence that SF are less ashamed of being socially conservative up north

Getting the majority of unionists on board is a bit of a nonsense, sadly there's no way that's going to happen in time, partition will almost certainly end first. Even the likes of Varadkar and M Martin know this is the case.

It's true that there is more conservatism in the north, especially among Protestants. But the divide is so strong that DUP supporters won't come over to nationalism.

Mad_maxx

going to get hammered for this but im fully in favour of a united ireland but im not typical of most people in favour

1. id never vote SF or any far left political party

2. i believe we can afford unification and that the international markets would cheer on reunification

3. i believe we here in the south should rejoin the commonwealth today , its a harmless club of nations but would be a positive gesture towards unionists now and also post unification , allow them their little bit of nostalgia which they cherish so much , i view that a costless exercise

4. those down here who say No seem to believe opting out of a United Ireland is like opting out of a fancier spec new car , whenever the mainland of the UK decide they are sick of the North , they will let it go and its up to us to deal with it , along with a sufficient number of voters in favour of reunification , i fully expect this to happen inside twenty five years at most

[Deleted User]

VinLieger wrote: »

Not willing to confront a difficult reality? You are throwing off genuine pragmatic concerns about security and economics as greed...

Also while completely ignoring the very real conversation that will have to be had about flags, anthems and a host of other things that haven't been in anyway considered by people like yourself who are obsessed with achieving something and really don't care how you get there or who you step on.

I would argue you and people like you are actually the greedy ones unwilling to confront the difficult reality of what a UI might actually have to look like instead of the green tinted, shamrock covered version you've been obsessing over for decades.

Woe horsey!
I’m not obsessing at all, I spend a bit of time in both jurisdictions but I can easily live with the status quo.
My point is that people who want partition to continue are going to have a hard time arguing for, without sounding very self interested. Wanting partition to continue will sound very like wanting to cut off Northern Catholics once again, due to selfishness. Plus not wanting to change the anthem/flag will seem very petty.
An nationalist majority is coming in the North, the South does need to get ready for that. Partition is going to dominate politics in the south very soon. It is already more significant in the North for the last five years, because all sides can see an end to it.

Mad_maxx

dd973 wrote: »

Progressive pro independence Scots find them an embarrassing throwback and view the Orange/Rangers F.C types through the same prism as we do, sectarian fools stuck in the 19th Century.

Young middle class Protestants up there outside of Belfast and the traditionally staunch towns like Larne and Portadown are surprisingly socially liberal and are where to look in terms of offering a E.U country with legalised abortion, LGBT marriage and so on.

Not everyone views abortion and " LGBT " issues as hugely important

I would not be relying on those to gather support amongst young unionists

Both sides up North are considerably more socially conservative than we are down here

No coincidence that SF are less ashamed of being socially conservative up north

Mad_maxx

Speedline wrote: »

Which is odd seeing as 100 years ago they called themselves irish. The English would call them irish too.

They only refer to themselves as Irish in a geographical sense , certainly not or never political sense

Del2005

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Why?

If every poll ever on the question is any indication, then those opposed to unification in the south are a small minority that can safely be ignored as a referendum on the question would easily pass with overwhelming support.

Do you want a united Ireland? Yes or No, of course people will say Yes.

Do you want to change our flag and national anthem, completely change our constitution and join the commonwealth for a united Ireland? Yes or No, I don't think that there will be a massive yes to this question

When the polls ask the 2nd question we'll see the true support for a united Ireland.

The other issue is will nationalists in the North who want to join the Republic of Ireland vote to join a Federal Ireland in the commonwealth? Because that's not what they have wanted for generations

VinLieger

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

I think it’s be very interesting to hear an anti UI campaign in the South. It’s be so hard to make it sound like anything other than being about greed or not willing to confront a difficult reality.
Not a hope it’s be successful, but it’s still be interesting.

Not willing to confront a difficult reality? You are throwing off genuine pragmatic concerns about security and economics as greed...

Also while completely ignoring the very real conversation that will have to be had about flags, anthems and a host of other things that haven't been in anyway considered by people like yourself who are obsessed with achieving something and really don't care how you get there or who you step on.

I would argue you and people like you are actually the greedy ones unwilling to confront the difficult reality of what a UI might actually have to look like instead of the green tinted, shamrock covered version you've been obsessing over for decades.

Del2005

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

I think it’s be very interesting to hear an anti UI campaign in the South. It’s be so hard to make it sound like anything other than being about greed or not willing to confront a difficult reality.
Not a hope it’s be successful, but it’s still be interesting.

Currently the vast majority of people don't care about a united Ireland and any that do think it'll be a united Republic of Ireland. When people find out that we'll loose our flag and national anthem, change our constitution to pander to a bigoted community you will see people start to oppose it.

Saying that its greed is reducing people's genuine objections to completely changing our country to join another country is resorting Trump/Brexit levels of debate.

Why do we need to change our already inclusive flag to another inclusive flag? Look at the still ongoing hatred of Ireland's Call to see how people will react. to changing our anthem.

[Deleted User]

I think it’s be very interesting to hear an anti UI campaign in the South. It’s be so hard to make it sound like anything other than being about greed or not willing to confront a difficult reality.
Not a hope it’s be successful, but it’s still be interesting.