Irish_rat wrote: » Surprised no one is talking about UNI, top 8 now. I bet many cursing themselves selling that airdrop :pac:
Room1o1 wrote: » I can't understand how bitcoin is compared to gold constantly. I understand it's a store of value based on proof of work and is limited so protected against inflation but to me it's still more similar to a fiat currency in that it requires peoples confidence in it to hold its value. Maybe for investors and speculators it's similar to gold in the short term but gold will still be gold in a couple hunder years where's I doubt bitcoin will be around in 500 years. I'm I thinking about this the wrong way. Why are alot of people thinking it will hold its value forever or are they just speculators in it for the ride to the top before jumping out which could next week or next decade or longer.
Timmaay wrote: » Surely you can say the very same about gold, to me anyways a gold billet is nothing more than a heavy shiny lump of metal that I cannot really do much at all with, other than hope that everyone's belief in it is higher the day I sell against the day I bought it. Bitcoin certainly has a much shorter and more volatile history than gold, but otherwise it's not much different, it's simple a digital version of gold, limited supply and it certainly cannot be manipulated in the same manner a central bank can print fiat currencies if they want. Do I believe that it will hold its value forever, unlikely, however I know for a fact that a fiat currency in 20years time will be guaranteed to be worth less than it is today. Does that mean I want to put all my cash into BTC, hell no, however I will happily use it as a store of part my wealth in a well diversified portfolio of mine, that will also include fiat, shares and property alongside other assets.
connie147 wrote: » As a newcomer to the crypto game, (2 months actually is a complete newbie), I just want to say that I love seeing a post by an experienced player recommending a specific coin along with a few lines about why its worth considering. (I presume a brief explanation of why a coin looks a good investment means more to the likes of me than it does to the experienced poster). I've been learning as much as I can about doing DD, so I use that info to start me off on a search of a project. Somebody came on here and called Boards a "cess-pit". i don't agree at all. I have learned so much from the various posters here its hard to explain. We are all in here for the same reason i guess, and that is to make some €s from investing in cryptos. (well the likes of me are also in here to learn). If we can help each other, that's great for the boards crypto community. And I speak for all the newbies when I express my gratitude for the free advice and helpful posts that appear on the forum. basically, I just want to say that not everyone thinks its a cesspit round here.
cnocbui wrote: » Gold mining is potentially highly toxic, often involving considerable quantities of arsenic and it's not remotely CO2 neutral to mine and purify. After that it's ok. I'm very happy with my share of tulips. That's the thing with etherium and it's ilk - very soon now someone is bound to want some for something.
Room1o1 wrote: » I can't understand how bitcoin is compared to gold constantly. I understand it's a store of value based on proof of work and is limited so protected against inflation but to me it's still more similar to a fiat currency in that it requires peoples confidence in it to hold its value.
Maybe for investors and speculators it's similar to gold in the short term but gold will still be gold in a couple hunder years where's I doubt bitcoin will be around in 500 years.
Why are alot of people thinking it will hold its value forever or are they just speculators in it for the ride to the top before jumping out which could next week or next decade or longer.
Room1o1 wrote: » Gold is a physical element (Au) with great properties and uses including as a store of value
Mellor wrote: » Pretty much every store of wealth requires confidence. If there's no confidence, there's no trade, if there's no trade there's no value. BTC and Gold could both exist in 500. BTC can exist in hardcopy. Existence has nothing to do with value. Who mentioned holding value forever? A rock in a field is a physical and is worthless. We are surrounded by elements that hold no value. Gold had physical properties. As do all elements. Being a store of value is not a physical property. It's a decision that people made centuries ago. It's stable, as it's been a standard for a long time. But it there is no real reason for it.
Rob2D wrote: » The whole "Bitcoin is harming the environment" thing is a pretty weak argument IMO. You can mine Bitcoin solely on renewable energy. In fact, it will have no choice but to go that way. Which actually opens the door to many developing countries or remote places to have a go at it. It's one of those rare cases where you can actually bring the work to the energy. Can't do that with Gold.
Room1o1 wrote: » Ture the proof of work can be in a hard copy but then it's not on a Blockchain and could be copied. The Blockchain declares the owner.
Maybe I am looking at its comparison with gold it the wrong way as gold isn't really brought either but certifcates of gold which could be compared to certificate of proof of work.
Gold though can't be superseded unless material science has some kind of breakthrough or if a famine happend then you would happily give up gold for a few seeds.
Rob2D wrote: » The whole "Bitcoin is harming the environment" thing is a pretty weak argument IMO. You can mine Bitcoin solely on renewable energy.
Room1o1 wrote: » It's not my argument though just saw news articles in the last few weeks about the network using as much power as the Netherlands
Room1o1 wrote: » I can't understand how bitcoin is compared to gold constantly.
Room1o1 wrote: » I understand it's a store of value based on proof of work and is limited so protected against inflation but to me it's still more similar to a fiat currency in that it requires peoples confidence in it to hold its value.
Room1o1 wrote: » Maybe for investors and speculators it's similar to gold in the short term but gold will still be gold in a couple hunder years where's I doubt bitcoin will be around in 500 years.
Room1o1 wrote: » I'm I thinking about this the wrong way. Why are alot of people thinking it will hold its value forever or are they just speculators in it for the ride to the top before jumping out which could next week or next decade or longer.
Room1o1 wrote: » Fiat will definitely suffer inflation over the years
Room1o1 wrote: » Gold is a physical element (Au) with great properties and uses including as a store of value which is also why it's worth so much through history. geology.com/minerals/gold/uses-of-gold.shtml
Room1o1 wrote: » Bitcoin is proof that a very hard calculation was done and the answer is put on a Blockchain and sold based on what people believe it to be worth similar to fiat.
Room1o1 wrote: » Using bitcoin in a diversified portfolio is good right now but is it actually worth anything to anyone other than speculators/investors?
Room1o1 wrote: » Personally I think bitcoin has quite a high cost to the environment
Room1o1 wrote: » and will eventually become too costly to keep the network running
Room1o1 wrote: » plus will receive very bad press soon from the eco crowd.
Room1o1 wrote: » When the 24 million calculations are completed where's the incentive to keep turning on the computers than run the network?
Room1o1 wrote: » Gold just sits there not rusting or polluting.
Room1o1 wrote: » Other cryptos have improved on these issues where bitcoin can't.
Room1o1 wrote: » Smart contracts will be so useful very soon.
Room1o1 wrote: » I would compare them to tulips.
Room1o1 wrote: » Once the noise on this type of thing starts it doesn't go away.
Room1o1 wrote: » Other crypto use far less energy and bitcoin could be considered the fossil fuel of crypto not the renewable of cryptos.
Room1o1 wrote: » Btw renewable engery costs money too
Mellor wrote: » That's a pretty weak defence. Even if BYC was mined 100% with renewables. The energy is consumed, and not available for something else that is using fossil fuels. Until the worlds energy supply is 100% renewable and unlimited, energy use is an issue.
makeorbrake wrote: » Firstly, this critique for the most part stems from folk who can't see any tangible utility in bitcoin. If that is how someone sets out in their consideration of bitcoin energy use, then it is no surprise of the conclusion they arrrive at - ultimately.
Finally, if btc used both stranded and renewable energy that couldn't be repurposed (because its harnessed in the back of beyond where there is no other use case for it), would you still have an issue with btc mining?
Mellor wrote: » I was referring to a hardcopy wallet. It wouldn't be hard to preserve and address pair for centuries. tHe arguement hat it won't last 500 years doesn't seam to hold water. If locked away in a wallet somewhere yeah it does still exists but it wouldn't be used so couldn't see a demand for it in that case. I think you are look at gold the wrong way it's self. The value of gold is not an inherent property of god. Just something we decided. I can't agree, gold is very important for lots of applications. Why can't it be superseded. What is stopping that happening? What other element has exactly 79 electtons and hence the properties that go with that election configuration?........ There's a question that I'm not sure of the answer to. But I think it's pretty critical. Does mining BTC use so much energy because;It's fundamentally required to use exactly as much as it does, or It is so lucrative to mine BTC that, there are many people competing in the space. I've never looked into it. But it's something I've thought of when people are wheeling out the energy argument. But I imagine it's closer to B than A. If 50% of the worlds miners quit tomorrow, the block chain would continue, and the energy drops dramatically.
Room1o1 wrote: » If 50% of miners quite tomorrow not many would compare bitcoin to gold, actually they would start the tulip compassion.
It appears the bitcoin = gold is coming from people invested in bitcoin They will not consider that it can be replaced. As an example smart contract cryptos actually have much more uses (see programable money and IOT) they also use far less power, can be mined on cpu's not gpu's.
It's not right to compared bitcoin to an atom of gold with a unique structure which if recreated in that configuration is still gold and very useful.
Bitcoin has a use but not an unique one! It can be copied and bettered which has already happened in terms to technology
Room1o1 wrote: » It appears the bitcoin = gold is coming from people invested in bitcoin
Room1o1 wrote: » they also use far less power, can be mined on cpu's not gpu's.
Room1o1 wrote: » It's not right to compared bitcoin to an atom of gold with a unique structure which if recreated in that configuration is still gold and very useful.
Room1o1 wrote: » Bitcoin has a use but not an unique one! It can be copied and bettered which has already happened in terms to technology, finance hasn't caught up yet due to people been heavily invested in bitcoin that's the main reason for its price right now. Not it's properties or uniqueness but it's buy in value by investors like tulips once.
Room1o1 wrote: » They will not consider that it can be replaced. As an example smart contract cryptos actually have much more uses (see programable money and IOT) they also use far less power, can be mined on cpu's not gpu's.
Mellor wrote: » I don't see how that's the slightest part relevant to my question. Which was entirely about the energy use. It's relevant to my questions about bitcoin been compared to gold. That's what my point is. It's not comparable to gold. It's a bad comparison But lets run with your answer. Why would 50% of the miners quitting (or beign wiped out in a flood ) turn it into tulips? Care to explain that one. If 50% of miners left the market tomorrow I don't think that would have a good effect of the price or confidence in bitcoin. People will panic and move their money Bitcoin isn't mined in GPUs anymore. FWIT. Bitcoin is only mined in gpu's other cryptos can be mined on cpu's. Look it up and also read my post. I said other cryptos The comparison with gold had nothing to do with its atomic structure. As above, you appear to mistakenly believe that golds value is an intrinsic property. It isn't. This was in relation to the point on gold been superseded with something else. It can be replaced an application (cheap material but at a compromise. No other element can copy it without becoming it (we know all the stable elements already) FWIW Gold's use is not unique either.
pioneerpro wrote: » TBH the Bitcoin thing is down to first mover advantage and a bit of Gresham's law. Asides from that, comparisons to fiat-pegged stuff become a little strained when you're trying to compare like with like. Given the massive media focus on power consumption going forward, the recent rolling brownouts caused by government seized mining in Iran, and the capital flight from developing countries to hedge against hyper-inflation, I'd see some regulatory blockers coming into play to put up barriers to entry or otherwise 'license' mining and DeFi in general. Recent developments in India are probably a taste of whats to come:https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-03-19/bitcoin-ban-proposed-in-india-is-a-bad-ideahttps://www.indiatoday.in/business/story/govt-mulls-blocking-ip-addresses-of-cryptocurrency-exchanges-report-1782207-2021-03-22 That said, the whole proof-of-work and other similar arguments for Bitcoin are kind of rendered null and void in the medium-term if regulation doesn't rear its ugly head -> Bitcoin using more The 'last block mined' is in the region of 2140 at current viability projections, but in the next ~15 years one of the following is likely to happen imo: * Quantum Computer based Integer factorisation will be viable and Shor's Algorithm will be implementable - meaning that everything from RSA to proof-of-work in hash-cash style implementations are trivially solved. * Some derivative of parallel processing of relevant workloads will be viable using Digital Annelears; massively speeding up the process and reducing block complexity * Some other novel way of bruteforcing the nonce will be discoveredhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shor%27s_algorithmhttps://www.linkedin.com/pulse/when-can-quantum-computer-destroy-bitcoin-anastasia-marchenkova/https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1711/1711.04235.pdf
Room1o1 wrote: » If 50% of miners quite tomorrow not many would compare bitcoin to gold, actually they would start the tulip compassion. It appears the bitcoin = gold is coming from people invested in bitcoin They will not consider that it can be replaced. As an example smart contract cryptos actually have much more uses (see programable money and IOT) they also use far less power, can be mined on cpu's not gpu's. It's not right to compared bitcoin to an atom of gold with a unique structure which if recreated in that configuration is still gold and very useful. Bitcoin has a use but not an unique one! It can be copied and bettered which has already happened in terms to technology, finance hasn't caught up yet due to people been heavily invested in bitcoin that's the main reason for its price right now. Not it's properties or uniqueness but it's buy in value by investors like tulips once.
Harari describes money as a “collective fiction.” He notes that the total value of money worldwide is $60 trillion dollars, of which a mere $6 trillion is in cash or coins. This means 90 percent of all money is nothing more than entries in a computer server. Money, says Harari, is a “faith based object,” whose value is derived by the shared narrative about its worth.
Where could Bitcoin be in another seven or so years? The report notes the advantage of Bitcoin in global payments, including its decentralized design, lack of foreign exchange exposure, fast (and potentially cheaper) money movements, secure payment channels, and traceability. These attributes combined with Bitcoin's global reach and neutrality could spur it to become the currency of choice for international trade. There are a host of risks and obstacles that stand in the way of Bitcoin progress. But weighing these potential hurdles against the opportunities leads to the conclusion that Bitcoin is at a tipping point and we could be at the start of massive transformation of cryptocurrency into the mainstream.
Room1o1 wrote: » On the above, very clear points on the future of this crypto. This is why I'm concerned with people comparing bitcoin to gold (that's fine for investors but lay people think it's really safe due to this comparison). They should be careful with this comparison and only speculate if you can afford to. People are betting on it going up and up which is fine they know it's a gamble. Buying gold won't increase in value like bitcoin can.
Room1o1 wrote: » On the above, very clear points on the future of this crypto.
Room1o1 wrote: » This is why I'm concerned with people comparing bitcoin to gold (that's fine for investors but lay people think it's really safe due to this comparison).
Room1o1 wrote: » . People are betting on it going up and up which is fine they know it's a gamble. Buying gold won't increase in value like bitcoin can.
Room1o1 wrote: » It is in certain applications
cnocbui wrote: » Do you think all the money supply of the world exists as physical paper notes and coins and is held in vast vaults? No that goes back to the gold standard. That became possible with fiat money and factional reserve banking. Most of the worlds money is in the form of made up ones and zeros on bank hard drives and has never been in physical form and never will be. never? What about the gold standard before fiat. Who changed the us dolar to fiat and when?https://www.ngpf.org/blog/uncategorized/question-percentage-money-supply-physical-coins-currency/ Bitcoin is as good as physical gold compared to that nonsense. It's more secure, it's verifiable and traceable, the knowledge is always public and it is rigidly constrained in quantity. You heard of the Emperor's new clothes tale - well that's fiat currency for you. Have you ever heard of Citi Bank? It's the 13th largest bank in the world with well over a trillion in assets. Here's what they had to say very recently:https://ir.citi.com/_tpHpW8MfaZ1QXwGmP1JGMGXXI95qXm3IMJzUJScLMb6XIjtOls6EbDehXMR3B_o9Opi7mdc5tQ%3D
