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Justice League Spoilers from post 980 onward

larchielads

We've had the avengers i want the justice league!!!!!!!
Just sayin is all..........................but wouldnt we just love it!!!!!!

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feargantae

Brief_Lives wrote: »

How much is a sky contract, they will be having all the rugby next year aswell...

You can get 2 months of "Entertainment" on NowTV for a tenner at the minute. Same offer for Sky Cinema. Usually they're €15/pm each.

Snake Plisken

feargantae wrote: »

Any legal ways to get the 4K version? I'm not interested in watching in 720p on Now.

Vpn to the US setup a US gmail address I could link my PayPal to the american playstore download the hbo max app from playstore and set up an account and subscribe $14.99 a month.
You will then need vpn or dns service running on your firestick or in my case nvidia shield with the hbo max app installed.
If you have an apple tv box think it's easier again setup a US apple account again you would need a vpn or dns service running, buy a $20 itunes gift card and top up your US itunes account and sign up on the hbo max app billed via itunes.
I watched it in 4K HDR/Dolby Vision & Dolby Atmos.
It's a great streaming service as lots of content for around €13 a month

senordingdong

Anybody any experience using rakuten?
Wikipedia says that rakuten France will have it in 4k. Vpn to France might be easier.

The Phantom Pain

Sometimes it's good to be wrong.

My expectations for this film were super low. MOS was a disappointment and BvS was absolutely appalling and ruined Henry Cavill’s Superman for good.

I went in expecting this to be better than the 2017 output but to still be a disaster. Happy to say I really enjoyed this.

In fact, I enjoyed it so much that it's made me wonder how much the faults of Snyder’s previous DCEU films were on him or and how much were on WB.
One of my issues with MOS is how rushed and poorly edited it was with Superman having no character development. BvS (even the UE) is also poorly edited and yet overstuffed, trying to do in one movie what it took Marvel about 8 years to do at the time. Aquaman and Suicide Squad have the same problems – erratic editing and, in the former’s case, way overstuffed (Black Manta was a glorified toy advert). So this is a running theme with the DCEU and the common denominator is WB.

Snyder’s Justice League actually feels like a film and not a studio mandated checklist of dos and donts. It has actual SCENES, not just filler racing to get to the next action set piece. Scenes are given time to breathe, things are properly explained, character motivations make sense, dialogue is decent. There was actual character development in the form of Victor/Cyborg who is the heart of the movie. Mostly, I was surprised at how heartfelt, sincere and earnest it was even in small moments. It didn’t feel dark for the sake of being dark; it felt earned and hopeful throughout. Snyder is known for his visual flare so the more emotional elements took me by surprise.

My only negatives is I still don’t like Ezra Miller’s Flash but he’s more tolerable than in the Josstice version. Also, the score music did not do it for me. I think Junkie XL’s ego got the better of him. Say what you want about MOS and BvS but the score music was superb.

I can see why it’s called ‘Zack Snyder’s Justice League’ and not ‘The Snyder Cut’. A ‘cut’ implies it’s the same movie with a director’s edit. This is an entirely different film. No wonder why the cast was so keen to get it seen. All that work left on the cutting room floor. Insane. Here is the problem though: There was no way WB could have ever released this back in 2017.

They would have had to cut it down to 2 hours and a half which would not be enough time to fully flesh out characters that have had no set up in previous films. And that is kind of the problem with the whole direction of the DCEU in general – racing to get to the Justice League before establishing the characters in solo films first. Avengers does not need 3 hours plus because all the character work had been done in the standalone films. Justice League was dead on arrival.

senordingdong

The Phantom Pain wrote: »

They would have had to cut it down to 2 hours and a half which would not be enough time to fully flesh out characters that have had no set up in previous films. And that is kind of the problem with the whole direction of the DCEU in general – racing to get to the Justice League before establishing the characters in solo films first. Avengers does not need 3 hours plus because all the character work had been done in the standalone films. Justice League was dead on arrival.

I always found the worst issue with the theatrical cut was that two main characters and the villain had to be introduced from scratch.
While it's great that these characters are properly fleshed out in ZSJL, but doing so is what ads to the bloat.

techdiver

Having slept on it here are my thoughts.

First and foremost, I have to ask why?? Based on what I saw last night WB, basically destroyed a very good movie to change it to what? The same core movie with most of the depth, levity and heart removed. I've ranted in the past about my opinion of Hollywood execs being absolutely useless but this just copper fasten this opinion.

So to the actual movie.

To start, every character was improved and given room to breath, especially Victor. It really is his movie and one of the best sequences in the movie was

the single mother sequence

. It really added to the development of his character and gave the movie unbelievable heart. People accuse Snyder of being a good visual director with no sense of subtlety but that scene alone dispelled that idea to me. It is just one example of many scenes lifted in this version. Some are just subtle tweaks but work so well. The emotional heart to Victors character was completely thrown away in the theatrical version. No wonder Fisher was pissed off.

Flash was done way better also. Once again subtle changes in character development and no stupid

boob face plants

. His involvement in the finale is just 1000% better than the theatrical version also. To think what his character was reduced to doing in the theatrical version is even more maddening when I think about it.

Bruce was so much better. None of the obvious re-shoots (they were just so obvious as Affleck had gained so much weight between shooting with Snyder and Whedon). Gone are the forced softening and dumb jokes that Bruce was landed with in the Whedon version. Yes, his character had softened between BvS and this but it happens much more organically and is earned.

One scenes that is changed massively by tone and soundtrack etc is

the London terrorist scene. It puts across a much darker and perilous tone.

. And one of the things that once again got me angry was the scene

where Diana talks to the little girl following the incident

. Like why cut that 10 second scene from the theatrical version when it added so much emotion to the story??? It seemed to be a trend.

Steppenwolf was much improved also. Everything from his look, to the voice to his expanded character development and motivation added to the story. Even though

Darksied was sonly in a small number of scenes his presence added to the overall story.

I'm a Superman fan. Since the age of 3 he's been my number 1 and always will be. Whist the movie was a homage to him as a character I still think he's being underused. Don't get me wrong, this portrayal is way better than what Whedon did (Mustache-gate anyone), but I'm left wanting more. He does have one of the best "badass" moments in the movie though.

A few things didn't land for me. The score. Some of it was fantastic but some parts were not. I didn't care for the Amazons theme, it often took me out of the movie as opposed to complementing it. I think Holkenborg tried to re-invent too much of the wheel instead of sticking with tried and trusted themes from Zimmer that already existed. He does use them also, but tries to put his own stamp on them too much. I've listened to the entire soundtrack and as a work of music it is fantastic but some of it just doesnt fit the mood of certain scenes for me. He does stick the landing sometimes. The Justice League theme itself is fantastic though.

Some of the scenes did drag just a little. You could probably cut a 3.5 hour movies out of it. The epilogue did drag a little BUT the second half of the epilogue was cool and enjoyable especially

the interaction between Batman and the Joker. Some fantastic dialog and tension. Leto showed what he could do with the character with different direction. His ability to smile with almost dead eyes was an acting masterclass and I'd love to se him get another shot at it.

There's too much to talk about and I'm going to watch it again but all in all as many people here have said it exceeded my expectations. I don't think I've ever seen another "cut" (probably the wrong word as another poster above said) of essentially the same movie (core story wise) that was so completely different and for the better.

Brief_Lives

good post.

The Phantom Pain

techdiver wrote: »

To start, every character was improved and given room to breath, especially Victor. It really is his movie and one of the best sequences in the movie was
the single mother sequence
.

I also felt that moment was earned because he is shown previously helping out his fellow student by essentially doing the same thing but when he gets his powers as Cyborg he's helping on a wider scale. It was consistent and shows that Victor is fundamentally a good person, not just tortured.

feargantae

Snake Plisken wrote: »

Vpn to the US setup a US gmail address I could link my PayPal to the american playstore download the hbo max app from playstore and set up an account and subscribe $14.99 a month.
You will then need vpn or dns service running on your firestick or in my case nvidia shield with the hbo max app installed.
If you have an apple tv box think it's easier again setup a US apple account again you would need a vpn or dns service running, buy a $20 itunes gift card and top up your US itunes account and sign up on the hbo max app billed via itunes.
I watched it in 4K HDR/Dolby Vision & Dolby Atmos.
It's a great streaming service as lots of content for around €13 a month

Honestly, with going through that amount of hoops it'd be easier to just pirate it.

Cheers tho !

The White Wolf

I know people say the road to JL was rushed and I think Superman was the biggest casualty of that, but the fact the League came together so quickly kind of worked I thought.

Not having the likes of Aquaman, Flash and Cyborg established while the invasion begun added to the stakes and their camaraderie felt earned without any forced banter.

Now yeah 4 hours was needed for that, but who was the blame for that? Warner were the ones who rushed to the JL film so what was Snyder supposed to do in a two hour run time? Warner were the ones that botched this and then botched it even worse when they got cold feet.

ManOfMystery

techdiver wrote: »

Having slept on it here are my thoughts.

First and foremost, I have to ask why?? Based on what I saw last night WB, basically destroyed a very good movie to change it to what? The same core movie with most of the depth, levity and heart removed. I've ranted in the past about my opinion of Hollywood execs being absolutely useless but this just copper fasten this opinion.

So to the actual movie.

To start, every character was improved and given room to breath, especially Victor. It really is his movie and one of the best sequences in the movie was
the single mother sequence
. It really added to the development of his character and gave the movie unbelievable heart. People accuse Snyder of being a good visual director with no sense of subtlety but that scene alone dispelled that idea to me. It is just one example of many scenes lifted in this version. Some are just subtle tweaks but work so well. The emotional heart to Victors character was completely thrown away in the theatrical version. No wonder Fisher was pissed off.

Flash was done way better also. Once again subtle changes in character development and no stupid
boob face plants
. His involvement in the finale is just 1000% better than the theatrical version also. To think what his character was reduced to doing in the theatrical version is even more maddening when I think about it.

Bruce was so much better. None of the obvious re-shoots (they were just so obvious as Affleck had gained so much weight between shooting with Snyder and Whedon). Gone are the forced softening and dumb jokes that Bruce was landed with in the Whedon version. Yes, his character had softened between BvS and this but it happens much more organically and is earned.

One scenes that is changed massively by tone and soundtrack etc is
the London terrorist scene. It puts across a much darker and perilous tone.
. And one of the things that once again got me angry was the scene
where Diana talks to the little girl following the incident
. Like why cut that 10 second scene from the theatrical version when it added so much emotion to the story??? It seemed to be a trend.

Steppenwolf was much improved also. Everything from his look, to the voice to his expanded character development and motivation added to the story. Even though
Darksied was sonly in a small number of scenes his presence added to the overall story.

I'm a Superman fan. Since the age of 3 he's been my number 1 and always will be. Whist the movie was a homage to him as a character I still think he's being underused. Don't get me wrong, this portrayal is way better than what Whedon did (Mustache-gate anyone), but I'm left wanting more. He does have one of the best "badass" moments in the movie though.

A few things didn't land for me. The score. Some of it was fantastic but some parts were not. I didn't care for the Amazons theme, it often took me out of the movie as opposed to complementing it. I think Holkenborg tried to re-invent too much of the wheel instead of sticking with tried and trusted themes from Zimmer that already existed. He does use them also, but tries to put his own stamp on them too much. I've listened to the entire soundtrack and as a work of music it is fantastic but some of it just doesnt fit the mood of certain scenes for me. He does stick the landing sometimes. The Justice League theme itself is fantastic though.

Some of the scenes did drag just a little. You could probably cut a 3.5 hour movies out of it. The epilogue did drag a little BUT the second half of the epilogue was cool and enjoyable especially
the interaction between Batman and the Joker. Some fantastic dialog and tension. Leto showed what he could do with the character with different direction. His ability to smile with almost dead eyes was an acting masterclass and I'd love to se him get another shot at it.

There's too much to talk about and I'm going to watch it again but all in all as many people here have said it exceeded my expectations. I don't think I've ever seen another "cut" (probably the wrong word as another poster above said) of essentially the same movie (core story wise) that was so completely different and for the better.

I think a lot of the things you mentioned here can be attributed to WB's insistence on the run time of the TC being under 2hrs. To achieve that, they basically cut/trimmed absolutely anything that didn't add to the core storyline. However, Whedon then chose to waste some of that time by adding needless stuff like the Russian family save.

Unfortunately this meant that much of the heart of the film and much of the exploration of the characters was lost. The Snyder cut restores all of that and it is a much, much better film for it.

If Snyder's 4hr cut was too much for them in 2017, maybe they should have considered releasing it as a two-parter.

Brief_Lives

is it possible to find out the amount of people that watch this? the numbers will be huge as almost everyone loves this movie, compared to the previous turkey, it was an absulte turkey of a movie.

what a success for Snyder, after such trajedy.

The White Wolf

Brief_Lives wrote: »

is it possible to find out the amount of people that watch this? the numbers will be huge as almost everyone loves this movie, compared to the previous turkey, it was an absulte turkey of a movie.

what a success for Snyder, after such trajedy.

The numbers will be available from HBO Max after a few days, as for other platforms I don't know.

ManOfMystery

There will also be many who have watched it via other means so the official stats are probably going to be on the lower side of accuracy.

Going by Twitter and other social media, the response to it has been overwhelmingly positive. I read through a ton of the trending #Snyder hashtags last night for the move and haven't seen very many negative comments at all.

The White Wolf

ManOfMystery wrote: »

There will also be many who have watched it via other means so the official stats are probably going to be on the lower side of accuracy.

Going by Twitter and other social media, the response to it has been overwhelmingly positive. I read through a ton of the trending #Snyder hashtags last night for the move and haven't seen very many negative comments at all.

Aye...."via other means."

techdiver

ManOfMystery wrote: »

I think a lot of the things you mentioned here can be attributed to WB's insistence on the run time of the TC being under 2hrs. To achieve that, they basically cut/trimmed absolutely anything that didn't add to the core storyline. However, Whedon then chose to waste some of that time by adding needless stuff like the Russian family save.

Unfortunately this meant that much of the heart of the film and much of the exploration of the characters was lost. The Snyder cut restores all of that and it is a much, much better film for it.

If Snyder's 4hr cut was too much for them in 2017, maybe they should have considered releasing it as a two-parter.

That's a big part in bold. You could forgive Whedon the runtime restraints as that was a condition of his hiring, but the stuff he filmed himself was mostly dog****. The only explanation was hubris. There was plenty of runtime in the theatrical cut for some of the character development stuff but instead he filled it with stupid scenes like Aquaman sitting on the lasso and the Russian family stuff. If they wanted a shorter version of the movie they should have just edited down what they had. It would have been bad at 2 hours but better than what Whedon produced. Replace the time spent on the Russian family to Victors story arc. Replace the Aquaman/lasso scene with some more of Barry etc. There are more examples.

The Phantom Pain

ManOfMystery wrote: »

I think a lot of the things you mentioned here can be attributed to WB's insistence on the run time of the TC being under 2hrs. To achieve that, they basically cut/trimmed absolutely anything that didn't add to the core storyline. However, Whedon then chose to waste some of that time by adding needless stuff like the Russian family save.

Unfortunately this meant that much of the heart of the film and much of the exploration of the characters was lost. The Snyder cut restores all of that and it is a much, much better film for it.

If Snyder's 4hr cut was too much for them in 2017, maybe they should have considered releasing it as a two-parter.

Remember, the producers wanted to get rid of Snyder before it had even started filming due to the reception to BvS but the higher ups said no. There was no way they were going to allow a two parter.

johnny_ultimate

The Phantom Pain wrote: »

Remember, the producers wanted to get rid of Snyder before it had even started filming due to the reception to BvS but the higher ups said no. There was no way they were going to allow a two parter.

Precisely. Snyder was on incredibly thin ice with WB after BvS, and the prospect of a four-hour, complete version of this film was willed into existence months/years after the release of the theatrical version.

I think a lot of fans saying 'I can't believe WB never released this in the first place' are perhaps ignoring the reality that they were never, ever going to get this film in the first place. And again, that's not to say their weird hybrid Whedon version was an inevitable outcome either.

ManOfMystery

The Phantom Pain wrote: »

Remember, the producers wanted to get rid of Snyder before it had even started filming due to the reception to BvS but the higher ups said no. There was no way they were going to allow a two parter.

Oh don't get me wrong, I followed the whole thing for years so I know there was never a chance of WB having enough faith in Snyder in 2017 to go with a 4hr version.

My point, they tried to take a less risky approach and it ironically didn't pay off. The film was derided, the CGi moustachegate debacle made it a laughing stock, and it landed flatly on it's face. And this wasn't just another superhero solo outing which they could write off and move on from quickly - it was the first big-budget cinematic ensemble for DC featuring their most famous grouping of heroes, the Justice League.

And here we are now with Snyder's 4hr version, and people by and large are extremely positive about it. Reviews have been good, audience score on RT is phenomenally high. Perhaps studios in future should take a closer look at what exactly they define risk as, because it looks like Snyder's more artistic, lengthy and edgy approach has actually appealed to people. I think it's mediocrity they should have been concerned about; not throwing in Whedon jokes or ass shots of Diana or anything else they deem to have mass appeal.

Penn

ManOfMystery wrote: »

Oh don't get me wrong, I followed the whole thing for years so I know there was never a chance of WB having enough faith in Snyder in 2017 to go with a 4hr version.

My point, they tried to take a less risky approach and it ironically didn't pay off. The film was derided, the CGi moustachegate debacle made it a laughing stock, and it landed flatly on it's face. And this wasn't just another superhero solo outing which they could write off and move on from quickly - it was the first big-budget cinematic ensemble for DC featuring their most famous grouping of heroes, the Justice League.

And here we are now with Snyder's 4hr version, and people by and large are extremely positive about it. Reviews have been good, audience score on RT is phenomenally high. Perhaps studios in future should take a closer look at what exactly they define risk as, because it looks like Snyder's more artistic, lengthy and edgy approach has actually appealed to people. I think it's mediocrity they should have been concerned about; not throwing in Whedon jokes or ass shots of Diana or anything else they deem to have mass appeal.

I think the issue isn't that they tried to take a less-risky approach, but rather they tried to take a less-risky approach after the movie had been filmed. It's very clear having seen Snyder's full version and what he shot that trying to make a more comedic and max. 2-hour version of that was the decision which killed that movie. If they'd gotten rid of Snyder after BvS (as TPP says the producers wanted to do) and got Whedon or whoever to then write a 2-hour less-risky Justice League from scratch, they might have been able to do something decent with it (though a full Marvel-isation of these characters from how they were set up in BvS would have been jarring to say the least).

Drumpot

I like how the film is split into chapters as it does feel like you can take a break or come back to it like a TV show.

If this really is a success I could see a sequel for the HBO platform that might allow Snyder to go full Snyder and have really long movies (or episodic Movies). I think what this movie also shows is that full Snyder is not necessarily a bad thing.

They could leave the individual standalone character movies and let Snyder build the universe on their HBO platform. They could save a fortune in advertisement/promotion and could even semi release Snyder movies into cinema if there an aperitite (I’d go and see this on big screen).

Few thought we would sew the Snyder cut or that it made financial sense but here we are. Huge money is spent on tv series like game of thrones and even lord of the rings with Amazon. If the Snyder cut does really well why wouldn’t they consider giving him a 6 hour slot for the next movie and make it 6 episodes? Marvel are doing something similar, granted with more peripheral hero’s but I think a lot of people would be happy to see the Snyder universe expanded on and this would be a way of making it happen.

SMC92Ian

Well that was near enough the same film just with added bits and drawn out scenes.

CramCycle

SMC92Ian wrote: »

Well that was near enough the same film just with added bits and drawn out scenes.

Not sure what you were watching but not my experience and I hated Justice League when it came out. This is a completely different movie

Positive points:
CGI massively improved although still very dark colour wise it is a massive improvement
The plot makes a huge amount more sense now
I hated Cyborg in the fist version, he was so pointless, seemed poorly acted and effectively a plot piece. He still is a plot piece, like them all I suppose but he is way better, and he can act. Flash is also way more tolerable.

Negative notes:
While the CGI is massively improved, there are a good few scenes where it is bad green screen the like of which I'd just about tolerate from a homemade youtube video, still a million miles better than the original which looked like Wolverines Origins leaked version.
Alot of MacGuffins in there to keep the story ticking over but it is a superhero movie so it is what it is.
I'm not sure why but Wonder Woman comes off worse in this, I think it is the action shots where she seems to stop dead but something seems similar in her acting as well, as in, here is a line I must read, which is surprising as I thought the opposite in WW1 (I had to stop WW84 though as it was awful).
Aquaman also doesn't come off great, apparently the stuff i thought was Whedon was actually in the original shoot.

Overall it really highlights what a poor job Whedon done with his added shots. I am not saying he could have made a decent movie but it could have been on par with this with no reshoots. Instead it really highlights how to make a bad movie. Oddly enough, the bits that were not in Whedons cut out were very Whedon/Marvel like IMO, it certainly isn't as dark in tone as suggested although there are moments.

It did not feel like 4 hours, I did take breaks but it was easy watched. There are issues and out of lockdown it wouldn't get as positive a review from critics I think but it is far superior to the original theatrical release and is an OK movie. It doesn't deserve to get high marks but it certainly deserves decent marks.

silverharp

Whedon seems to getting a bit of heat , optics and all that

https://twitter.com/AustinPlanet/status/1372706400086921216

mikhail

I suppose he should have just cut Superman and Batman out of the movie. Or made it 4 hours long. Both options that were definitely on the table. :rolleyes:

senordingdong

silverharp wrote: »

Whedon seems to getting a bit of heat , optics and all that ]

Ah Jesus, that's harsh.

The Phantom Pain

I don't like Whedon as a person so it provides me with no pleasure to give him the benefit of the doubt.
However, we have to remember he was working under ridiculous constraints. He had to come in to rewrite and direct new scenes with no additional time and make it fit with the material that was already there whilst being expected to make the same release date. Frankly, the fact that Justice League 2017 wasn't a complete turd is testament to his skill as a film maker.

Whilst his personal behaviour and racism towards Ray Fisher is not justifiable and didn't help matters, very few directors could have done a good job under the circumstances. The main villain in this entire drama is WB. It's their movie, their final say. They made every possible bad decision before, during and after.

senordingdong

The Phantom Pain wrote: »

The main villain in this entire drama is WB. It's their movie, their final say. They made every possible bad decision before, during and after.

Not the only bad decision Tsujihara made, I wonder if his not being apart of WB anymore helped this.

Penn

I do (or at least did) like Whedon, but I do think that accusation or implication is harsh. Cyborg has a lot of focus in this movie, which means for Whedon to bring the movie in at 2 hours, Cyborg's role would have had to have been stripped back. That obviously means the roles of his parents stripped back too. It's a pretty reasonable knock-on effect.

Ryan Choi's scenes added nothing and probably would have been mostly cut even if Snyder himself was trying to edit it down to a 3 hour movie for theatrical release (like with Jena Malone's scenes in BvS), and Iris West's car crash not only adds very little but is also the worst scene in the entire movie imo.

That car crash made no goddamn sense even by the metric of aliens and mother boxes. Her car was about 50m from the junction. She was driving slowly. The garbage man not looking where he was going because he was trying to pick his burger off the floor of his truck was irrelevant considering she crashed into the back of him because after 40m of pulling out from her parking spot and driving slowly past the pet shop checking out Barry, her car took off like a goddamn rocket ship in the last 10m even with her trying to brake, hitting the garbage truck with enough force that her car barrel-rolls about 100m down the street and explodes. I mean whatever about the music of the scene which was horrible, or the IMAX slow-mo shot of a f*cking sesame seed... that car crash was ludicrous. Almost 2 days after seeing the movie and it's still the part I think about the most. So Whedon cutting that scene... Yup. That was a good move.

I think there is definitely a lot to criticise Whedon for, especially if the general accusations of the cast (particularly Ray Fisher) are correct. But to try make a 2-hour movie out of what Snyder had done, I can see the reasons behind reducing or cutting some of those roles.

The White Wolf

Yeah look what Whedon did made sense even if it was absolutely fcuking awful; making Superman the heart of the film was the perfect out to cutting the film down to 2 hours. That's why most of the reshoots involved Superman clearly going by how horrific that phantom tache remains in the memory.

But tbh he wasn't an innocent bystander - he played along with being WB's hired gun for his own benefit (easy to forget Whedon was being positioned as the new godfather of the DCEU starting with his own Batgirl film). In no way should he be viewed in a sympathetic light under pressure from WB as they were clearly in it together for their own gains.