Garda Courses

cookimonster wrote: »

Care to elaborate on that, based on your own skill sets or qualifications.

From memory -
Time from draw to shot, followup shots, BSA, etc.
A lot of their basic mechanics were very inefficient.
Several rather antiquated methods of shooting(ie teacupping).
A bit of excessive rigidity in some of their mechanics too(ie - it must be done this way because that was the way we were shown, and told not to do it any other way).
Largely ignorant of the no flagging safety rule.
Even flagged his partner getting back into the vehicle :P

Infrequent practice too, with a very limited amount of retraining once qualified.

Just because they are issued with firearms does not make them proficient with them.

Same as firearms licencees really.
But I would feel safer on a civilian range than a garda one, based on what I've seen.

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

From memory -
Time from draw to shot, followup shots, BSA, etc.
A lot of their basic mechanics were very inefficient.
Several rather antiquated methods of shooting(ie teacupping).
A bit of excessive rigidity in some of their mechanics too(ie - it must be done this way because that was the way we were shown, and told not to do it any other way).
Largely ignorant of the no flagging safety rule.
Even flagged his partner getting back into the vehicle :P

Infrequent practice too, with a very limited amount of retraining once qualified.

Just because they are issued with firearms does not make them proficient with them.

Same as firearms licencees really.
But I would feel safer on a civilian range than a garda one, based on what I've seen.

But they operate under very difficult situations and conditions, very stressful incidents. We seen that in the news from Blanchardstown last year. When you do shoot someone, everyone becomes an expert in tactics and ballistics and knows what you did wrong. Its not a job i'd like.

tudderone wrote: »

[/B]

But they operate under very difficult situations and conditions, very stressful incidents. We seen that in the news from Blanchardstown last year. When you do shoot someone, everyone becomes an expert in tactics and ballistics and knows what you did wrong. Its not a job i'd like.

Oh completely, they do.
But that is why I mentioned civi vs garda range in particular.

If you aren't at your best that you can be(no one is perfect, there is always room for improvement obviously) on a flat range with no threats around you and not having to keep your eyes open, focus on weapon retention, etc then I do not think you will rise to the occasion in a more charged scenario.
To the contrary, you will fall back to your level of training & proficiency.

Thus if the range is bad enough, the other is likely to be worse.

Witcher wrote: »

There is no Garda unit called the 'ARU'.

As slip of the acronym.... the official title is Armed Support Units (ASU)

https://www.garda.ie/en/about-us/organised-serious-crime/special-tactics-operations-command/

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

From memory -
Time from draw to shot, followup shots, BSA, etc.
A lot of their basic mechanics were very inefficient.
Several rather antiquated methods of shooting(ie teacupping).
A bit of excessive rigidity in some of their mechanics too(ie - it must be done this way because that was the way we were shown, and told not to do it any other way).
Largely ignorant of the no flagging safety rule.
Even flagged his partner getting back into the vehicle :P

Infrequent practice too, with a very limited amount of retraining once qualified.

Just because they are issued with firearms does not make them proficient with them.

Same as firearms licencees really.
But I would feel safer on a civilian range than a garda one, based on what I've seen.

When is the last time you witnessed these points. Alot has changed in the recent past. Tea cupping, for feck sake we don't even do that now, that went out years ago. Range practice, TOET, qualification etc all stand within special units. Don't get the plain clothes armed gaurd confused with the ASU or the ERU.
Flagging,.... try getting 4 or 5 of you in and out of vehicles without at least one of ye swinging a muzzle in frount of a buddy, it happens on operational duty. It's part of the responsibility of going a foot with operational firearms.
Every day there are military personnel going about thier routines carrying loaded firearms. Many of these lads only undergo once a year weapons refreshes yet the incident rate of NDs is extremely low.
On the other scale many of the operational armed units of the Gaurds and DF conduct live fire exercises, were fire and manoeuvre is carried out in close contact with each other.
Things have change from the old range practice and the Olympic style pistol stance.

cookimonster wrote: »

When is the last time you witnessed these points.

Never witnessed, discussed. These came out while chatting to the chap during a break at an event we both happened to be doing.

Alot has changed in the recent past.

This would have been 2018, recent past meaning last year, months?

Tea cupping, for feck sake we don't even do that now, that went out years ago. Range practice, TOET, qualification etc all stand within special units.

I should think that tea cupping had been gone for a while, but not according to chappie.
Care to elaborate on some quals in that case? Even in board terms.

Don't get the plain clothes armed gaurd confused with the ASU or the ERU.

Well he had all the gear on, was carrying an MP7, and identified himself as ASU when I inquired, so I'm presuming he was...

Flagging,.... try getting 4 or 5 of you in and out of vehicles without at least one of ye swinging a muzzle in frount of a buddy, it happens on operational duty. It's part of the responsibility of going a foot with operational firearms.

Not just flagging getting into the vehicle, but that did stick out in my mind at the time, hence the mention specifically.

Every day there are military personnel going about thier routines carrying loaded firearms. Many of these lads only undergo once a year weapons refreshes yet the incident rate of NDs is extremely low.

I know, I've also had the pleasure of watching some of those once a year lads on the range.
Enlightening to say the least.

On the other scale many of the operational armed units of the Gaurds and DF conduct live fire exercises, were fire and manoeuvre is carried out in close contact with each other.

Given their working env I should think so.

Things have change from the old range practice and the Olympic style pistol stance.

Again I should think so, those things should have gone the way of the dodo long ago.

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Never witnessed, discussed. These came out while chatting to the chap during a break at an event we both happened to be doing.

Then that's 'Hearsay'

- information received from other people which cannot be substantiated; rumour.

This thread started out inquring about 'FO's qualifications in regards to doing that particular duty and has meandered along to discussing firearms training etc of the Gaurds, which in all honesty I think is fine and how certain discussion can evolve.
I think on several times there has been a cross over between the modern specialised units utilized by the GS and the old style training given in the past to Garda personnel which is an unfair comparison.
Am I more qualified then the next person to comment on this subject, no I am not, but given my life experience as a serving member of the DF and social interaction with members of the GS both through shooting and scuba diving and for my sins having family serving in the Gaurds you do tend to pick up some info here and there.
But I will reiterate that like other sectors of society both private and public the armed units of the Gaurds are made up of professionals.

cookimonster wrote: »

Then that's 'Hearsay'

- information received from other people which cannot be substantiated; rumour.

Now wouldn't your own post(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=116601601&postcount=39) not qualify under the same definition of hearsay in that case?

I can only speak from my own experiences & encounters, and maybe there are some high speed chaps in the ASUs, but I evidently have not met one :P

Can't comment on the DF's as I've had less interactions with them.

but given my life experience as a serving member of the DF

In that case can you share some of the DF's quals/drills possibly?
I'm always looking to learn something new if possible.

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Now wouldn't your own post(https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=116601601&postcount=39) not qualify under the same definition of hearsay in that case?

Err... no, that's first hand experience and interaction.

In that case can you share some of the DF's quals/drills possibly?
I'm always looking to learn something new if possible.

I take it from the emoji your asking that question tongue in cheek, so you won't be offended when I don't reply.

cookimonster wrote: »

Err... no, that's first hand experience and interaction.

Well, what I was hearing from chappie was first hand experience and interaction too.
Sure you hearing it from me is hearsay, same as me hearing it from you?
It's the end of my work day, so I could well be missing something here.

I take it from the emoji your asking that question tongue in cheek, so you won't be offended when I don't reply.

Apologies, that was actually a serious question. I enjoy shooting quals to see how I can do with them.

tudderone wrote: »

I used to know an armed detective, a friend of a friend sort of thing. He showed me what he was carrying, A rattly old .38 revolver that must have been left over from the Siege of Mafeking. Not the sort of thing i'd like to be entrusting my safety to.

Knew one as well that had the same armament, loaded with target wadcutter loads...That was the early 1990s so I hope that has improved. ...Hopefully..
As they have invested in about 5 million worth of NI made container style shooting ranges about the country...

The last report that I saw in the Indo, in the late oughties had their scores being utterly horrible, like 80 % of them couldn't get a 50% or above score at 10 15 meters on stationary man target. It's almost impossible to get any sort of info on these units as they dodge FOIA requests under "operational security".

MOD NOTE

I draw posters attention to the Rule-
There are limits on the discussion of current events and media reportage

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66989669&postcount=14

As this is a recent and ongoing investigation it is not tasteful or suitable for discussion here. The thread has being tidied up of any such reference.

No more discussion on the on going investigation.

freddieot

One comment I would like to make, not as an expert of some sort, but as someone who knows a few of these guys either through personal contacts or just to talk to over the years :-

When I, like many others, was preparing for and fighting my cases in Court over the ludicrous situation we had nearly a decade ago now with Handguns and renewals etc, it was the rank and file Gardaí, many of them that were working in armed units like these, that told me straight that they could not grasp the logic of wasting money persecuting law abiding shooters over shi*e, especially shooters that were in clubs and had guns already for years without any issues.

The PTB policies made no difference to crime rates and they were certainly not bothered whether I had a 9mm, a .22 or a 12 gauge. There would be no sudden shortage of firearms or ammo for drug dealers and crime bosses and the whole things was just optics for politics sake and again wasting money that would be better spent on more training, equipment and hours. That was the view of say about a dozen individuals I spoke to.

In short, they are not ALL out to get us and many realise how ludicrous the firearms regulatory system has become. TBH I'm a bit disappointed with some of the comments in this thread. They may be quite true in some cases but overall we want to be careful we don't outdo our PTB opponents in regard to casting general aspersions and generally running down the abilities of other people who shoot, especially those that can't directly post on here and argue their own corner.

freddieot wrote: »

One comment I would like to make, ..........

Absolutely, spot on.

The problem has NEVER been with the people on the mean streets,or the coalface of policing IN, ANY, SHAPE,OR, FORM, EVER. We have said numerous times over the years here.
The problem is with the "political class" above a certain rank...Always has been. Even those below doing day to day Garda stuff would agree.

freddieot wrote: »

One comment I would like to make, not as an expert of some sort, but as someone who knows a few of these guys either through personal contacts or just to talk to over the years :-

When I, like many others, was preparing for and fighting my cases in Court over the ludicrous situation we had nearly a decade ago now with Handguns and renewals etc, it was the rank and file Gardaí, many of them that were working in armed units like these, that told me straight that they could not grasp the logic of wasting money persecuting law abiding shooters over shi*e, especially shooters that were in clubs and had guns already for years without any issues.

The PTB policies made no difference to crime rates and they were certainly not bothered whether I had a 9mm, a .22 or a 12 gauge. There would be no sudden shortage of firearms or ammo for drug dealers and crime bosses and the whole things was just optics for politics sake and again wasting money that would be better spent on more training, equipment and hours. That was the view of say about a dozen individuals I spoke to.

In short, they are not ALL out to get us and many realise how ludicrous the firearms regulatory system has become. TBH I'm a bit disappointed with some of the comments in this thread. They may be quite true in some cases but overall we want to be careful we don't outdo our PTB opponents in regard to casting general aspersions and generally running down the abilities of other people who shoot, especially those that can't directly post on here and argue their own corner.

Politics.

But until recently the rank and file made up the ' "political class" above a certain rank...'

But at the same time sh1t rolls down hill and the ones on the bottom get it from both directions - joe public and the hierarchy.

Proof as if it were needed, was the temporary custody order of '72. Everything taken in, apart from .22 rifles and shotguns, and it didn't change a damn thing. 3,000 + people dead, and the republicans and unionists had no problem getting firearms, ammo, or explosives.

cookimonster wrote: »

But until recently the rank and file made up the ' "political class" above a certain rank...'

But at the same time sh1t rolls down hill and the ones on the bottom get it from both directions - joe public and the hierarchy.

And once you pretty much get above inspector, its a political calling and choosing and has little to do with whether you kept the belt, buckles badge, boots and buttons all nice and shiny on parade. Or merit in service...
While we are about it...Saw this and thought it was fitting.

I'm Done!
I’m a cop of 20 years. I’m leaving. I’m done.

I’m done with the duplicitous liars and twisters of truth in Parliament, who have destroyed policing in order to further their own careers. I’m done with those charlatans and snake oil salesmen and women who spread their bile, whose acid eats away at society and it’s values and future. I’m done with the utter lack of consequences for their corruption.

.
I’m done with duplicitous liars and twisters of truth in the media and “journalism” with their spin, lies, misrepresentation and half-truths. I’m done with their 24 hours news, their Twitter echo chambers, their pile on tactics and agendas, in order to invent the next “big” story or extend the life of the old one. I’m done with their sickening pretence that they are on some crusade to make the world a better place.

I’m done with the socially corrosive special interest groups who want to be top of the victimhood ladder and are prepared to burn the world and anyone different to them, to ensure they are heard above anyone else. Their constant screaming for attention and ever more fantastical claims, that bear no scrutiny, but which they know they will never be challenged on, because, you know “cancel culture”.

.
I’m done with the public, their violence, their lying, their abuse, their spitting, their constant screaming for instant gratification and destruction of anything and everyone around them if they don’t get their own way, like a bunch of petulant adolescents. I’m done with their demand for every right real or imagined and their utter lack of personal or social responsibility to each other.

I’m done with the senior officers who will jump on any bandwagon, throw any officer under a bus for doing their job, do anything at all to get that next rank and more power. I’m done with them pretending to be cops, when they are just politicians in uniform. At least real politicians don’t seek to hide their stench and are there for all the world to see, in all their obnoxious, odious glory.

I’m done with the far left and far right, two sides of the same violent, socially corrosive and destructive coin, trampling over anyone and everyone, destroying anything in their paths, if it doesn’t conform to the “right” narrative or world view. I’m done with their red and black flags, their balaclavas, their violence, bullying and intimidation. I’m done with them calling themselves Nazis or Antifa and pretending they are any different to the opposition. I’m done with their anti locution and persecution of anyone that isn’t on their side. I’m done with their cheerleaders in the media, who adopt their cause but absolve themselves of any responsibility for the harm they cause.

I’m done with the Soviet era scale bureaucracy that stops me doing my job, the projects that strangely never fail, the nepotism in the promotion boards and the boys and girls clubs in policing that look after each other, no matter how incompetent and screw everyone else who isn’t in their gang. I’m done with their self promoting cliques and associations, they hide behind when they are professionally incompetent, but always useful for a photo opportunity to make the force look good with whatever group is having their week or is fashionable that day.

I’m done with the (few) corrupt cops who drag all our names through the mud and the false narrative that the vast majority of front line cops are tainted.

I’m done seeing my brothers and sisters on the front line battered, criticised, unsupported and demoralised. I’m done with their fortitude, inherent goodness and sense of service, that makes them run forward, knowing the armchair critics will crucify them after. I’m done with their false hope that things will improve, that society will value them. I’m done with them being lied to by our leaders and then lying to themselves, that, maybe, just maybe, this time those leaders can be trusted, I’m done with seeing those youngster suffer and age far too fast as a decent life passes them by as they waste their lives on this.

I’m done with grandstanding cops, dancing for YouTube, wearing rainbows as self promotion, kneeling for a twitter photo, lecturing the public about things that shouldn’t concern us, forgetting we are the law police, not the public morals police, I'm done with them doing anything other rather than actual policing. I’m done with the false narrative that suggests this is the norm and that all cops are more interested in being woke social workers than doing their job. A false narrative we have facilitated by allowing this self indulgent, shameless self promotion of a few individuals, to proliferate.

I’m done with cops being told they are somehow lesser without a degree and that instincts are bias and bad. That experience and street knowledge is discriminatory. I’m done with the lies that the College of Policing is on our side. That the courts value and support us. That the IOPC isn’t an insidiously untrustworthy organisation out to get us. That the HMIC understands policing.

I’m done with the anxiety, the anger, the constant state of heightened arousal in case of danger, even when I should be feeling safe in my own home. I’m done with the corrosive damage to my physical and mental health, sacrificed for a country and public, serving both in green [army] and blue, for a country that couldn’t give a toss.
I’m done with the deaths, the suffering, the violence, the dishonesty, the predatory behaviour and all the other public faeces that you ask us to clean up.

I’m done with the the indescribable levels of frustration, rage, hate and despair that all the above has filled my life with, when all I wanted to do was look after the good people and lock up the bad. I’m done with the cynicism and distrust that it’s left me and the times I’ve put my family last, to ensure I was there for someone else’s. I’m done with the pain it causes them to see what this job does to us.

I’m a cop of 20 years service and I’m done with it. Sort your own mess up. Or don’t, and let it all collapse around you.

’I'm done, and really don’t care anymore.’

Republished by kind permission of Emergency Services News whose Twitter account is well worth a follow here.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I'm Done!
I’m a cop of 20 years. I’m leaving. I’m done.

Sounds like a disgruntled Bobby!

Different service over there with their own problems that have come about over decades of mismanagement.

cookimonster wrote: »

Sounds like a disgruntled Bobby!

Different service over there with their own problems that have come about over decades of mismanagement.

I wouldn't imagine its all that different here. One copper i was talking to at a christmas shoot years ago was piddled off with judges giving people, often with hundreds of previous convictions, soft sentences. I said it was probably because the judges know jail is nothing to them and they are just saving the taxpayer the expense. He was not happy.

tonysopprano

tudderone wrote: »

I wouldn't imagine its all that different here. One copper i was talking to at a christmas shoot years ago was piddled off with judges giving people, often with hundreds of previous convictions, soft sentences. I said it was probably because the judges know jail is nothing to them and they are just saving the taxpayer the expense. He was not happy.

I think it is more of a "i will scratch your back, if you scratch mine". If the scrote is in prison, he cannot commit more crimes, so the solicitors and barristers go hungry. It is all a money game. In Ireland a circuit court case can take 2 or more years to complete. Even in NI, a murder case can be over in 6 months, go figure

MOD NOTIFICATION

This thread has jumped tracks from the orginal posters topic, although it is healthy to see topics evolve and expand this has become somewhat of a train wreck.

The OP"s inquiry about the level of training Gaurds get in relation to dealing with firearms applications has been run over with accusations of ineptness, inappropriate references to current affairs and now defamatory statements. Last chance, any further issues will result in infractions. Stay on topic.

Advice - Pause to review, rethink and if so edit your posts before hitting that 'Submit Reply' button. We are not really at liberty to post about everthing we like, dislike, believe or think, there are social norms and legal constraints to adhere to.

cookimonster wrote: »

Sounds like a disgruntled Bobby!

Different service over there with their own problems that have come about over decades of mismanagement.

Stuff I underlined[should have put emphasis mine],I would say is also in aGS or any police forcethese days in the Western World.

jb88

cookimonster wrote: »

When is the last time you witnessed these points. Alot has changed in the recent past. Tea cupping, for feck sake we don't even do that now, that went out years ago. Range practice, TOET, qualification etc all stand within special units. Don't get the plain clothes armed gaurd confused with the ASU or the ERU.
Flagging,.... try getting 4 or 5 of you in and out of vehicles without at least one of ye swinging a muzzle in frount of a buddy, it happens on operational duty. It's part of the responsibility of going a foot with operational firearms.
Every day there are military personnel going about thier routines carrying loaded firearms. Many of these lads only undergo once a year weapons refreshes yet the incident rate of NDs is extremely low.
On the other scale many of the operational armed units of the Gaurds and DF conduct live fire exercises, were fire and manoeuvre is carried out in close contact with each other.
Things have change from the old range practice and the Olympic style pistol stance.

I would have no issue with any member of the defence forces, they are exceptionally well trained and their practices prevent such event as an accidental discharge in a vehicle from occurring. Not so with the Gardai.

If they cant be shown how to use a firearm correctly and practice that discipline then their firearm should be removed. Or they should not be issued them in the first place.
They are more of a danger to themselves and others than to criminals.

jb88 wrote: »

I would have no issue with any member of the defence forces, they are exceptionally well trained and their practices prevent such event as an accidental discharge in a vehicle from occurring. Not so with the Gardai.

If they cant be shown how to use a firearm correctly and practice that discipline then their firearm should be removed. Or they should not be issued them in the first place.
They are more of a danger to themselves and others than to criminals.

Its probably the old Irish attitude of "Ah it'll be grand".