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If we had similar laws to US would you own a gun?

dulpit

Hey,

I was watching an interview recently and one of the people being interviewed mentioned offhand that he owned a shotgun. This was a bunch of liberal Americans, living in California (I think) and the offhand manner which they mentioned their shotgun for home security, it was like me saying I have a house alarm.

It got me wondering, if for some bizarre reason we adopted some of the US's laws re. gun ownership - would you own one? If so, why?

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DoozerT6

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Maybe that would be enough though?

And what if it's not?

Witcher

DoozerT6 wrote: »

And what if it's not?

Then you'll have a third eye in your forehead pretty soon

DoozerT6

Witcher wrote: »

Then you'll have a third eye in your forehead pretty soon

lol unless I shoot first. But you have to be PREPARED to shoot and take someone's life. I'm not saying I wouldn't do it - I'm saying I won't know until I'm in that situation. Hopefully that never happens.

ILoveYourVibes

DoozerT6 wrote: »

And what if it's not?

Then you'll have a third eye in your forehead pretty soon

Gulp.:p

Heckler

I own a couple of guns, handgun included.

In relation to self defense/home protection firearms have to be secured in the house. Mine are in an alarmed gunsafe.

It would be impossible to access it, assemble it (slide and ammunition are in a seperate part of the safe) and use it as a defense.

Far as I know its possible to use a firearm in defense (See Pádraig Nally case) but to have one readily available for such is a different matter.

If I knew there was an imminent life threatening event about to happen to me and mine and the Gardai weren't available and I had time to assemble and ready a firearm then yes I would use it.

dulpit

If the zombie apocalypse happened I've always said I'd go into town to the gun shop to tool up. My question, apart from video games and tv/movies, I've no experience with guns. If society was breaking down, so no internet/etc, would it be possible to get a gun and fire it? It seems relatively simple but I may be wrong...

BattleCorp

dulpit wrote: »

If the zombie apocalypse happened I've always said I'd go into town to the gun shop to tool up. My question, apart from video games and tv/movies, I've no experience with guns. If society was breaking down, so no internet/etc, would it be possible to get a gun and fire it? It seems relatively simple but I may be wrong...

It doesn't have to be a zombie apocalypse. Three days without food and water and we'd all be a pack of killers.

My cousin in America has an emergency pack in her car. Shotgun, water purification tablets, first aid kit and other survival stuff. And a pile of cash (not a fortune, just something in case of an emergency). I was asking her about the cash and she quite rightly pointed out that if civilisaton breaks down, the power goes, what good is your credit card then.

BattleCorp

Heckler wrote: »

If I knew there was an imminent life threatening event about to happen to me and mine and the Gardai weren't available and I had time to assemble and ready a firearm then yes I would use it.

"Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six" as they say.

Deseras

Then you would have drive by shootings

Manic Moran

I live in a place with US type firearms laws. Yes, I own guns.

That said, as another poster pointed out, I can't imagine Ireland would turn into the US even if, for whatever odd reason, the laws changed. There is something in a lot of the American psyche which indicates it is acceptable to shoot someone for 'dissing' them, or to get a pair of runners. I don't think Irish people would suddenly change to that sort of behaviour even with greater access to firearms. Certainly there are plenty enough well armed countries which demonstrate this.

1874 wrote: »

I think it would make sense to have specifically non lethal weapons in a specific colour scheme to help distinguish them, day glow yellow/orange/green.

To what end? You can spray-paint a real gun day-glow yellow/orange/green. If you treat it as a less-lethal, it could end badly for you.

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Wouldn't a nice big Rottweiler or 2 be better?

Three issues. Firstly, nobody in my house is allergic to metals. Dogs, however, are another problem. Secondly, a gun is cheaper overall than a rottweiler or two. Thirdly, a dog isn't just an asset, it's a part of the family which requires care, attention, time etc. It's a commitment. Not all people are inclined towards taking a pet. A tool is much more convenient.

jill_valentine wrote: »

Switzerland is generally considered to have a very liberal gun policy, but I'd say it has what I'd call the "Chris Rock" strategy - the ammunition is as carefully regulated as the weapons themselves. Up until recently the national service stuff was issued in a can you were only meant to open under Judgement Day conditions.

Sortof. It's actually in between the "it's American free-for-all" and "It's quite regulated" which most people go with. Firstly, just because the tin of ammo came with a warning saying "Only open in case of war", whatever the punishment is for opening it without authorisation, it's probably not much of a concern compared to the punishment of committing whatever mischief with a gun. However, as you say, it's no longer done, the gun is kept at home for whatever reason, but the government issued ammunition is now stored centrally.

However, people discussing this also forget that there is a healthy non-government-provided firearms scene in the country. Check out "Bloke on the Range" over on Youtube, a British chap in Switzerland.

The only other Western country I can think of which routinely permits citizens to be armed out and about is Czechia, and they're not doing too badly on the firearms crime side of things either. They have a few more hoops to go through to get a permit, but if you pass the hoops, you cannot be denied. About a quarter million people out of the population of 11million have a carry permit. (Well, they call it a Class E license, but close enough). Of course 'pistol' is a Czech word, so they're inclined that way. They also were very unhappy at the recent EU laws on certain semi-auto weapons.

GreeBo wrote: »

How often is a gun successfully used to protect anything versus someone getting accidentally shot? How often does a gun stop a crime in the US versus facilitate one?

A quick bit of googling later, the figure for "Defensive Gun Uses" is anything from 800,000 to 6million a year, depending on who you want to listen to and what criteria are used. The last time the US Government took a look at it was quite a few years ago (Clinton era, maybe?) and they concluded 2.5million was about right.

The last figure for "crimes committed with a firearm" is a few years old, 420,000, but the NIJ shows an interesting trend down from the high of 1.5million in the mid 1990s.

Carrying firearms is not fun, it's a pain in the ass, tbh.

You just need the right holster. I never take mine off, be I armed or not. (It's an inside-waistband holster, and if I don't wear it to increase my effective waist size by 2", my trousers fall down). If it's in the right place, you don't notice it. The drop-leg I had in the Army was also very comfortable, just the right height to rest my hand.

All of the statistics from the US show that one way or another, owning a gun makes you or a family member more likely to be killed by a gun.

Yes, but there's also a matter of need. For example, if you live in a high crime neighborhood, you may feel the need to have a gun, the crime being high regardless of your own activities.

For those who say you are more likely to be killed by your own gun, that's a matter of personal responsibility. If you don't store it right, or don't know how to use it, that's your own fault. However, it's worth noting that in the CDC study commissioned after Sandy Hook, it stated that those who defended themselves with a gun were more likely to come out of an encounter unharmed than those who used any other defensive technique. So it really does come down to personal responsibility. Owning a gun doesn't make you safer. Owning a gun and taking the time to learn how (and when) to use it, however, is another matter entirely.

If you're in the US and someone breaks into your house, you pretty much need to take for granted that they're probably armed with a gun.

Indeed, and conversely, criminals also take it for granted that a homeowner is probably armed with a gun. This means that they tend to take pains to ensure that the homeowner is not present in the first place. Burglary rates between the US and UK are generally similar, but the 'homeowner present' (AKA "hot burglary) rate is far lower in the US.

Criminals get guns, the general public get bigger guns, the police get bigger guns, then criminals get even bigger guns

This line reminds me of the scene in "Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels"...
"What's that?"
"It's my Bren gun..."

The overwhelming majority of crimes are conducted with handguns. The overwhelming majority of firearms purchased for defense are handguns. There is only so big a handgun will get before it gets impractical to use. Most folks settle for a 9mm semi-auto or a .380, and it's generally stayed there for both sides.

there are more guns than people and little old ladies thinking they need automatic weapons.

Well, not necessarily automatic, but another person suggested learning jiu-jitsu for a year. Your typical little old lady has more chance with a pistol than in hand-to-hand.

Most people in Ireland don't understand what the 2nd Amendment actually means

Most people in Ireland also don't understand that every State also has a Constitution, and in the vast majority (About 44 of them), they also contain an analogue. Some of them are extremely specific such as "Every citizen has the right to keep and bear arms for security and defense, for lawful hunting and recreational use and for other lawful purposes"

Snickers Man

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

Most people in Ireland don't understand what the 2nd Amendment actually means

I sense a burst of Gunmansplaining is about to break over us.....

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."

It does not mean.....
It also does not mean......
The comma before "the right of the people" is the most important part of the amendment .....

The amendment means in plainer terms that because the state has an armed military and police force- the people - individual persons - have a right to bear arms also.

"Shall not be infringed" is worded that way because the right to bear arms is inalienable.
It cannot be taken away.

The right to bear arms is not just to hunt but to allow the citizen to protect him or herself from a tyrannical government that would prefer to monopolize the use of force.

A law abiding citizen should have the right to own and defend himself with the same weapons as the police and the military.

Wow! I was right!!

The logic of these last few points dictates that if the police were unarmed, the citizenry would have no right to bear arms either. So take the guns off the cops. We did. In the middle of a civil war.
But then we're tougher than Americans
We're braver than Americans.
And, despite our self image as a rebellious and non-deferential people, we have more faith in democracy and the rule of law than Americans do.

By the way how is that "defence against a tyrannical government" spiel working out for you? About a thousand people are shot dead every year by American cops. Who suffer, in return, some 50 "felonious deaths" every year?

20 to 1 kill ratio in favour of police?
Careful where you park on a double yellow in that place!!!!

Mules

If I lived in a high crime area I probably would. At the same time, my aim is so bad that if I ever had to use one I'd probably end up shooting myself.

Galwayguy35

An aul fella around here fired at the tinkers when they arrived to rob him back in the 80s, he fired at the van and heard shouts so he reckoned he got one of them.

The guards took the gun off him but he wasn't prosecuted because surprisingly the injured party didn't come back to make a complaint.

So yeah if the laws were the same I would own a gun.

Richard Hillman

Yes, of course. And I wouldn't be keen on giving it up to government.

Batattackrat

I'd probably play lets shoot the apple of someones head when drunk so No!

Strumms

Heckler wrote: »

I own a couple of guns, handgun included.

In relation to self defense/home protection firearms have to be secured in the house. Mine are in an alarmed gunsafe.

It would be impossible to access it, assemble it (slide and ammunition are in a seperate part of the safe) and use it as a defense.

Far as I know its possible to use a firearm in defense (See Pádraig Nally case) but to have one readily available for such is a different matter.

If I knew there was an imminent life threatening event about to happen to me and mine and the Gardai weren't available and I had time to assemble and ready a firearm then yes I would use it.

I’m just looking a somebody assembling and loading a Glock 23 on youtube...

If you had the gun safe beside or near your bed... at a leisurely effort as it is in the video all be it done by an experienced expert..it would be about 2 minutes from... ‘ohhh ****, I better grab my gun’ to accessing it, it being assembled loaded and ready to fire...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xw8t8glqZxc

The issue I guess is the ability or inability to ascertain and judge the type of threat...

Is the criminal going to...

A. On hearing you moving about, perceiving he has been discovered or is about to be discovered..flee the scene..?

B. Are they going to think... “hmmm I have a haul of a few grand in cash, jewelry, art, their nice car, not giving that up. .I’m going to defend myself with a knife, I have serious drug debts, I’m going to need to get out of here with my haul even if I have to defend myself with a deadly bladed weapon and the potential consequences of that..” ?

For you as the resident, it’s a lottery, you can’t read minds...you can’t afford to open dialogue..or wait and see.

Anybody breaking into a residential property should be considered a threat to the lives and wellbeing of the occupants... they have used force to enter, it’s reasonable to assume they will do the same to safely get away...

dulpit

Strumms wrote: »

Anybody breaking into a residential property should be considered a threat to the lives and wellbeing of the occupants... they have used force to enter, it’s reasonable to assume they will do the same to safely get away...

John Oliver did a piece about police raids the other week, and one of the points brought up was that when the cops burst in the homeowners may rightfully think it's a home invasion, and start shooting. Resulting in charges against the owner for shooting cops.

Just hand back the guns...

BrianD3

60 year old savagely attacked in aggravated burglary, Gardai believe theft of his 3 firearms was the motive.

https://www.independent.ie/news/gardai-recover-two-firearms-and-arrest-three-in-horror-burglary-probe-40203477.html

Mules

BrianD3 wrote: »

60 year old savagely attacked in aggravated burglary, Gardai believe theft of his 3 firearms was the motive.

https://www.independent.ie/news/gardai-recover-two-firearms-and-arrest-three-in-horror-burglary-probe-40203477.html

That's irony for you

rossie1977

If I could have a chain gun like Ventura in Predator I would have one in each room

jbv

I would, more then one.

Gorteen

Without a doubt. I'd opt for a 9mm Browning Hi-Power pistol

Manic Moran

Gorteen wrote: »

Without a doubt. I'd opt for a 9mm Browning Hi-Power pistol

Old school, are you? (I own one, but more for the sake of the collection)

Cheesey Cheese Hood Cheese

Probably a fully automatic with an extended clip as well as a glock in the bedside locker. Plus something light but powerful for my wife. Armed women turn me on. I'm not unsure how you could not not be armed over there.

Gorteen

Manic Moran wrote: »

Old school, are you? (I own one, but more for the sake of the collection)

Loved this weapon in army

Gorteen

Manic Moran wrote: »

Old school, are you? (I own one, but more for the sake of the collection)

Loved this weapon in the army

Nekarsulm

If we had similar laws to the US, I'd add to the few guns I already own.
There are a number of sporting shotguns I'd like to buy, and a half dozen or so historic shotguns as well.
Ones that were milestones in the development of the modern shotgun.
Now, there's little stopping me buying them as it is, except for lack of funds to install even higher levels of security and the Gardai's fondness of trying to make you sell one before buying another. ( not a legal requirement, but hey, they try it every time).
I'd like a AR 15, just because they are fun to shoot.
I can already buy the ammo for it, cause there are thousands of rifles in Ireland that are chambered for .223 Remington..
I'd like to try reloading my own cartridges, as you can do in the UK, Northern Ireland, and practically every other country in Europe.
Not allowed here, because the Government feared they would be overthrown by a well armed civilian force .....
If we ever come to the stage of having a peacefully transitioned United Ireland, hopefully the new gun laws will be to the NI standards, and we'll be trusted the same way most civilians both there and in most of Western Europe are.

Strumms

You could trust most people but...

Nekarsulm

Strumms wrote: »

You could trust most people but...

True, but that's where the existing procedures in both here and NI come into play.
If I am habitually drunk, fighting, a drug addict, have a criminal conviction, etc, etc, then it's highly unlikely I'll be granted a gun licence anyway.
As for reloading, what am I going to do only reload empty cartridges that I've already legally bought and fired, for the guns I have already legally bought.....
And hopefully save five or ten cent per cartridge.

peasant

That's me on "home defense" in the background