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Cork developments

snotboogie

I noticed that the Limerick equivalent is a very popular thread over on their forum so I thought I might get one going here. To kick things off I'll list the bigger current projects I can think of:

Under Construction

Navigation Square: Four building office development on the former Navigation House site on Albert Quay. 310,000 sq ft of office space for up to 3000 employees. First phase to be completed Feb 19'

89-90 South Mall: 50,000 sq ft office, 5 storey office building.To be completed in December 18'

Dalata Hotel South Mall: Six storey hotel, 165 beds. To be completed in December 18'

Various Student Accommodation: Western Road and Beamish site are under construction, Crows Nest has planning and should start soon, Square Deal is facing appeals, Coca-Cola site on the Carrigrohane Road has had planning for over a year but nothing has happened? O’Riordans Joinery, Gillen House on Farranlea Road, Model Farm Road/Melbourne Road and Copely Street are all at various stages of planning and/or limbo.

Planning/Appealed

Horgan's Quay: Office Space for 5,000 employees, 200 apartments, 136 bed hotel and 3000 sq metres of restaurants and retail. Got planning permission in March but it was appealed by Port of Cork. Uncertain when the final decision will be. Construction on the Hotel will hopefully begin in Q4 this year with the office and apartments commencing in 2019.

Sullivan's Quay: 6 storey Office & 193 bed 4 star Hotel. Planning granted and immediately appealed. Given that demolition is nearly complete I'd expect this to go into construction as soon as planning is granted. Potential hold up over the height of the hotel, at 12 storeys and 47 metres, it is set to make the top 20 tallest buildings in the state if completed. An Taisce not happy.

Former Victoria Hotel: Knocking much of the Victoria and rebuilding to the back and refurbishing the original historic front/facade and to integrate the two sections into a new high order retail unit, of 25,000 sq ft, over four floors. Rumoured to be taken over by Zara. Planning granted in Feb, nothing happened on site since.

Metropole Redevelopment: €50m redevelopment of the Metropole Hotel to include a new five-storey boutique hotel on Patrick's Quay. Planning granted with amendments in March. No date for work to start.

Wilton Shopping Centre: €100 million revamp proposed. Mistake made in planning permission. In the process of resubmitting.

In Limbo

Event Centre: 6000 all seater multi purpose event centre with a tourist brewery experience. Arguably the most controversial construction project in the history of the city. After a bleak 6 months at the back end of 2017 there have been two instances of positive murmurs from the Government and BAM in January 2018 and April 2018. Construction allegedly to start in Q4 2018 but there are still conflicting and contradictory statements from all parties involved. Most would be shocked to see this start in 2018.

Anderson Quay/Camden Quay/Trinity Quarter: All have had planning for years with no work on site. Camden Quay allegedly had some work going on last week but I'd be shocked if it was related to the actual construction. I can't see any of these sites being developed as per their current proposals.

Concept/Pre Planning

Docklands Tower: 40 storey mixed use tower with the redevelopment of the existing customs house warehouses into cultural, tourist and retail space. By a mile the most ambitious development in Ireland. Announced over one year ago and no sign of a planning permission application yet, allegedly waiting for the Docklands development plan this summer to rezone heights for the site. If we don't see a planning application by the end of the year I'd be worried.

Ford Distribution Depot: Put on sale last week. Former site of the extremely ambitious Atlantic Quarter. Major development opportunity

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timmyjimmy

As someone who is soon to be a new resident very near PUC, i'm not sure how I feel about the new the car park there. We'll probably have kids and it would be great to have some sort of a play area there.
Saying that, it's quite clear that there's been pure abandonment of cars in the area, especially at weekends, a car park might be useful.
One thing's for sure, traffic wardens are essential in the area, especially at weekends, I hope they're not planning in putting a car park and hoping that parking will sort itself out. I don't much faith in the policing of cars do, it's quite evident cars can do what they want in Cork.

Markcheese

It depends what the carpark is for , I suspect it's nothing to do with matchdays , it's probably more for conference facilities ,
In fact I could see the car park having to be closed for match days ...
Always thought pairc ui caoimh needed a really good park and ride or at least some kind of bus service , preferably up the marina ,as much to get people away from the stadium as to it. ..

snotboogie

Reputable Rog wrote: »

There’s zero prospect of a Munster game. Munster have their own stadium in Limerick with much better corporate facilities.
The IRFU would not be keen on effectively handing over their already depleted match day revenue to a competitor.
Munster also have sponsorship deals with Diageo who have the pouring rights in Thomond, Heineken have the rights to PUC, how do you overcome that problem as well as all the box holders and their entitlements?

We have had this debate before and you have a very staunch "it can't be done" attitude to "foreign games" in PUC.

You have completely ignored the capacity increase in PUC over TP in the potential for making money and said that a financial loss is inevitable, which isn't true. "it can't be done"

Then you have taken an issue and painted it as insurmountable. You are honestly telling me that a sports team has never used another stadium with different pouring rights? This has never happened before? "it can't be done"

I have a feeling that you will find more small issues and paint these as insurmountable too, when they are patently solvable. The real issue is that this ridiculous attitude is held by lots of people, many who control the stadium and will see it continue to have the worst yearly attendance to capacity ratio of any stadium opened anywhere in the world this century.

the beer revolu

Isn't there a PUC thread somewhere?

Reputable Rog

snotboogie wrote: »

We have had this debate before and you have a very staunch "it can't be done" attitude to "foreign games" in PUC.

You have completely ignored the capacity increase in PUC over TP in the potential for making money and said that a financial loss is inevitable, which isn't true. "it can't be done"

Then you have taken an issue and painted it as insurmountable. You are honestly telling me that a sports team has never used another stadium with different pouring rights? This has never happened before? "it can't be done"

I have a feeling that you will find more small issues and paint these as insurmountable too, when they are patently solvable. The real issue is that this ridiculous attitude is held by lots of people, many who control the stadium and will see it continue to have the worst yearly attendance to capacity ratio of any stadium opened anywhere in the world this century.

Sorry now but I don’t care what’s played in PUC, I also happen to be a season ticket holder for both Thomond and Musgrave so you’re pointing the fingers in the wrong direction.
Finally please tell me why when the IRFU own several stadiums of their own they would opt to rent out a competitors stadium?

ofcork

Moving on fencing has gone up on the grand parade by the q park old tourist office being converted into a hotel iirc?

Treehelpplease

ofcork wrote: »

Moving on fencing has gone up on the grand parade by the q park old tourist office being converted into a hotel iirc?

yes but that's not it, it's at risk of collapsing I saw

Flesh Gorden

snotboogie wrote: »

Name one that gets less use than PUC

I know one: 'Bird's Nest' National Stadium in Beijing.

Averages 1 glamour friendly a year and maybe 1 concert a year.

They had an athletics thing in 2015 and some gaming yoke in 2017, but it makes PUC look busy in comparison.

That is both bigger and less used

snotboogie

Flesh Gorden wrote: »

I know one: 'Bird's Nest' National Stadium in Beijing.

Averages 1 glamour friendly a year and maybe 1 concert a year.

They had an athletics thing in 2015 and some gaming yoke in 2017, but it makes PUC look busy in comparison.

That is both bigger and less used

I have actually been there

I visited Beijing for work in 2018, its absolutely spectacular! The local super league team play there now since workers stadium was demolished. They average 40k fans a game and play about 20 home games per year.

Its also pretty unique since it is the centre piece of an Olympics, a World Championships, a Winter Olympics and will almost certainly be the key stadium for a World Cup bid soon. It also has 20k tourists through its gates every day. Maybe, maybe, in a bad year when the concerts and pre season friendlies are slow, it has a worse ratio than PUC, but like I said it is really unique in that it is a showpiece stadium for global events held in China and has more than had its day in the sun, we are really stretching if this is the only comparison for day to day usage for PUC.

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Sorry now but I don’t care what’s played in PUC, I also happen to be a season ticket holder for both Thomond and Musgrave so you’re pointing the fingers in the wrong direction.
Finally please tell me why when the IRFU own several stadiums of their own they would opt to rent out a competitors stadium?

Because it is the only stadium capable of hosting big games in the largest city in Munster and it's the only stadium in the province that could host a home ERC semi final. Most importantly, the onus should be on Cork GAA not Munster (or me!) to figure out how to make use of an asset that they received public land and funding for. The reason they got the funding was to bring events to the city. Right now they are sitting on valuable land with an expensive asset that we have helped to pay for and they are not using it.

I can't overstate how poorly utilised the stadium is; in 2019 there were, I believe, only 3 games where over 10k people attended; 30k for a Limerick Hurling game, 26k for a Waterford Hurling game and 18k for a Kerry football game. Thats an annual sporting attendance of 74k in a 45k capacity stadium. That was supplemented by one concert with a 35k attendance. It didn't come close to being filled once. Musgrave Park, with a capacity of 8k, actually had more people through its gates in 2019, with 50k attending Munster and Ireland under 20 games and 65k attending concerts there.

Reputable Rog

snotboogie wrote: »

I have actually been there I visited Beijing for work in 2018, its absolutely spectacular! The local super league team play there now since workers stadium was demolished. They average 40k fans a game and play about 20 home games per year.

Its also pretty unique since it is the centre piece of an Olympics, a World Championships, a Winter Olympics and will almost certainly be the key stadium for a World Cup bid soon. It also has 20k tourists through its gates every day. Maybe, maybe, in a bad year when the concerts and pre season friendlies are slow, it has a worse ratio than PUC, but like I said it is really unique in that it is a showpiece stadium for global events held in China and has more than had its day in the sun, we are really stretching if this is the only comparison for day to day usage for PUC.

Because it is the only stadium capable of hosting big games in the largest city in Munster and it's the only stadium in the province that could host a home ERC semi final. Most importantly, the onus should be on Cork GAA not Munster (or me!) to figure out how to make use of an asset that they received public land and funding for. The reason they got the funding was to bring events to the city. Right now they are sitting on valuable land with an expensive asset that we have helped to pay for and they are not using it.

I can't overstate how poorly utilised the stadium is; in 2019 there were, I believe, only 3 games where over 10k people attended; 30k for a Limerick Hurling game, 26k for a Waterford Hurling game and 18k for a Kerry football game. Thats an annual sporting attendance of 74k in a 45k capacity stadium. That was supplemented by one concert with a 35k attendance. It didn't come close to being filled once. Musgrave Park, with a capacity of 8k, actually had more people through its gates in 2019, with 50k attending Munster and Ireland under 20 games and 65k attending concerts there.

Thurles and the Gaelic Grounds are actually bigger if size is your thing.

snotboogie

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Thurles and the Gaelic Grounds are actually bigger if size is your thing.

I don't know why you are so flippant on this topic?

Neither of those stadiums has had any major work on the scale of PUC for about 100 years. Both had small upgrades costing less than 15 million. The PUC upgrade cost well in excess of 100 million.

Mardyke

Which Cork stadium has the highest annual attendance and best use-ratio?

- Stade de Frank
- Muzzer
- Turners Cross

Certainly during 2014 to 2018, Turners Cross must have had the most footfall?

If there was one 25,000 seat stadium with modern corporate facilities, it would satisfy the need of Cork, Munster and City.

snotboogie

Mardyke wrote: »

If there was one 25,000 seat stadium with modern corporate facilities, it would satisfy the need of Cork, Munster and City.

Of course, but there are too many good GAA men who can't tolerate sharing.

Here is the BMO Field in Toronto with a capacity of 30k. Its 2016 renovation was cheaper than PUC's at $120m CAD. It has retractable stands and has a field length of 135 metres, which could accommodate GAA games. This would have been ideal for Cork:

Here it is hosting a soccer game, despite GAA length pitches being unworkable for ground shares according to some here:

BMO_0.jpg?null&itok=ESPHmQzc&c=08ce797bb0b111f4ccfb5e64e152df15

BMO_0.jpg?null&itok=ESPHmQzc&c=08ce797bb0b111f4ccfb5e64e152df15

For 115m euro or $170m CAD we got this, a single use stadium:

I understand that some may (actually!) try to argue the aesthetics of PUC over BMO but you can't argue with the functionality. We have a 115 million Euro white elephant that was used 3 times for big games in 2019. Its barely ever spoken about, to the point that the GAA even have the temerity to go back and look for more public land to sink into this!

I know I am bleating on but this is the worst Cork Development in my lifetime, arguably the least effective stadium development in the world in the last 20 years, certainly the least effective that has actually gone into use. The only time it has been filled was for a game that Cork GAA actively tried to block taking place there.

Mardyke

snotboogie wrote: »

The only time it has been filled was for a game that Cork GAA actively tried to block taking place there.

Haaaaaa! Brilliant.

Although on a more serious level it brutally sums up how out of touch with reality the GAA and City Council are.

Curb Your Enthusiasm

Markcheese wrote: »

It depends what the carpark is for , I suspect it's nothing to do with matchdays , it's probably more for conference facilities ,
In fact I could see the car park having to be closed for match days ...
Always thought pairc ui caoimh needed a really good park and ride or at least some kind of bus service , preferably up the marina ,as much to get people away from the stadium as to it. ..

The new BE hourly 212 bus service serves Kent Station, and the city to the areas adjacent to the stadium along with a stop nearby the stadium itself. New Marina car park, including the dreadful 'grasscrete' already has tons of car parking spaces anyway.

timmyjimmy

Curb Your Enthusiasm wrote: »

The new BE hourly 212 bus service serves Kent Station, and the city to the areas adjacent to the stadium along with a stop nearby the stadium itself. New Marina car park, including the dreadful 'grasscrete' already has tons of car parking spaces anyway.

People aren't going to look up bus timetables to get to an event at PuC. There needs to be a specialist service organized that blatantly says that it's going to the venue, the would be far uptake in this type of service.

who_me

snotboogie wrote: »

Of course, but there are too many good GAA men who can't tolerate sharing.

Here is the BMO Field in Toronto with a capacity of 30k. Its 2016 renovation was cheaper than PUC's at $120m CAD. It has retractable stands and has a field length of 135 metres, which could accommodate GAA games. This would have been ideal for Cork:

Impressive, looks bigger than 30k.

Not sure the field is big enough though, at 68m wide (isn't the minimum width 80m for GAA?) but the design could likely have been scaled without much added cost.

Apogee

marno21 wrote: »

Custom House Tower appealed....

http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/308596.htm

Decision due next Monday:

Irish Examiner wrote:

Tower Development Properties Ltd is awaiting the outcome of an appeal on plans to build a 34-storey skyscraper, as well as a commercial, retail and tourism complex on the site of the historic Revenue building on Custom House Quay. The plan includes a 140m-tall tower, with a 241-bedroom hotel and 25 serviced hotel suites over 34 storeys, as well as commercial elements and a museum/visitor centre, which will pay heed to the site’s maritime heritage.Cork City Council granted planning permission last October by Cork City Council, but appeals from the Irish Georgian Society, An Taisce, Sean Feehan and John Adams saw this referred to An Bord Pleanála. The board is due to report its decision by March 22.

Markcheese

Curb Your Enthusiasm wrote: »

The new BE hourly 212 bus service serves Kent Station, and the city to the areas adjacent to the stadium along with a stop nearby the stadium itself. New Marina car park, including the dreadful 'grasscrete' already has tons of car parking spaces anyway.

I meant for the very rare big events , there's no prob getting a bus there , but when everybody spills out onto monahan rd the buses can't run because of the crowd

Shedite27

30k would have been too small for a lot of the games it wants to host, and the concerts it wants to host. I understand they seem like a bad investment for non-GAA people but every kid in Cork (myself included) grows up dreaming of playing in PUC. It's a huge marketing tool for GAA. It's also got good use for conferences, business breakfasts etc. Every city needs a stadium that can put on concerts.

[Deleted User]

Shedite27 wrote: »

30k would have been too small for a lot of the games it wants to host, and the concerts it wants to host. I understand they seem like a bad investment for non-GAA people but every kid in Cork (myself included) grows up dreaming of playing in PUC. It's a huge marketing tool for GAA. It's also got good use for conferences, business breakfasts etc. Every city needs a stadium that can put on concerts.

It is a bad investment from a public money standpoint.

Shedite27

Deleted User wrote: »

It is a bad investment from a public money standpoint.

How much public money went to it V GAA funded?

Every stadium around the world gets the same problem, lots of people will say they'll never use it and it's a waste.
- then Westlife sells out 3 nights toa crowd that wouldn't go otherwise.
- it was in the proposal for RWC wasn't it, so rugby would have got benefit too.
- if CCFC every make European stages it would allow them play games in Cork.

You can't judge the ROI on what it's delivered over the past 3 years since opening, it's a stadium that's there now to be used for 30 years.

Treehelpplease

I'd rather PUC be too big than too small tbh, even if it is a white elephant for now. As the population grows, it will be needed. Better than tearing it down again in a few decades. I also don't agree with those picture comparisons above. One is from roof level on a sunny day and on the concourse side while full. PUC is on a cloudy day when it's empty and from the rear car park. I do however wish it had red seats, it is way too grey.

Pairc-Ui-Chaoimh-1.jpg?resize=768%2C577&ssl=1

hans aus dtschl

Shedite27 wrote: »

How much public money went to it V GAA funded?

Outside of the public money directly handed over, it's very hard to put a value on lands which were CPO'd many decades ago and then given over at zero-cost to the private organisation.
How much is the "centre of excellence" (AKA future hotel) land beside PUC worth to them? I'd say quite a lot. How much did they pay? I don't believe they paid anything, but am willing to be proven wrong. The land value could be in the millions, realistically.

How much is the new car park worth to them?

I'm not against PUC or the GAA, and I have been in the new stadium a few times and think it looks good. But handing over public land to a private organisation does not sit well with me. Particularly when that particular organisation is...eh...a little bit secretive about its own usages of money. And even more when that organisation has a really bad attitude towards both transportation in the city centre, and compliance with planning.

fonecrusher1

Apogee wrote: »

Decision due next Monday:

Hope it gets approved but what sort of time line are we looking at for possible commencement pending approval? Not this year anyway that's for sure with the way things are going.

Shedite27

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Outside of the public money directly handed over, it's very hard to put a value on lands which were CPO'd many decades ago and then given over at zero-cost to the private organisation.
How much is the "centre of excellence" (AKA future hotel) land beside PUC worth to them? I'd say quite a lot. How much did they pay? I don't believe they paid anything, but am willing to be proven wrong. The land value could be in the millions, realistically.

How much is the new car park worth to them?

I'm not against PUC or the GAA, and I have been in the new stadium a few times and think it looks good. But handing over public land to a private organisation does not sit well with me. Particularly when that particular organisation is...eh...a little bit secretive about its own usages of money. And even more when that organisation has a really bad attitude towards both transportation in the city centre, and compliance with planning.

They built that stadium in the 70's, when most of that land was reclaimed marsh. Don't think you can say that's a handout, they made that valuable.

Car Park? Well they hold conferences there, as another poster said, people currently park outside residents houses at the moment, the car park is needed (I'm sure there's room for a playground too.

And you're totally speculating wiht regards to hotels, lets stick to what's real.

[Deleted User]

I've been to several conferences at the Aviva, never needed to drive there.
PUC is a short walk, from the city, or a very small taxi fare on a corporate card

Shedite27

Deleted User wrote: »

I've been to several conferences at the Aviva, never needed to drive there.
PUC is a short walk, from the city, or a very small taxi fare on a corporate card

Yeah but a lot will. Aviva Stadium has a big underground carpark under the east stand and training pitch

timmyjimmy

Deleted User wrote: »

I've been to several conferences at the Aviva, never needed to drive there.
PUC is a short walk, from the city, or a very small taxi fare on a corporate card

I've been to conferences at PuC. I've cycled down and drove down, most of my Irish colleagues drove down. Our American counterparts walked down or got a taxi down. There was probably 300 at the conference all in. There was enough parking around the stadium for our conference albeit on the small side.

Public transport is essential to make it more attractive for conferences albeit the powers that be think it's a car park that's needed.

[Deleted User]

timmyjimmy wrote: »

I've been to conferences at PuC. I've cycled down and drove down, most of my Irish colleagues drove down. Our American counterparts walked down or got a taxi down. There was probably 300 at the conference all in. There was enough parking around the stadium for our conference albeit on the small side.

Public transport is essential to make it more attractive for conferences albeit the powers that be think it's a car park that's needed.

So your American counterparts had the right idea over the Irish lads mentality of "Need a car for everything"