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Is the secondary teaching situation as dire as it's made out to be?

[Deleted User]

Hi all,
current 6th year student here. I'm fairly set on doing secondary teaching next year, hopefully in Maths and either Computer Science (UL) or Irish (Mary I). However I'm curious as to whether jobs prospects for teachers are really as bad as some say on here? I'm fully aware that salaries starting out are often nowhere near the official full-time "headline" salary, but is it reasonable to assume that with strong subjects you'd be looking at a full time job within a few years? I've seen people on here swear that nobody should ever go near the teaching scene, yet any teacher both primary and secondary I've spoken to, including my own previous and current teachers as well as family members have never discouraged me from following this career path.
Clearly either people on Boards are exaggerating how dire the situation is for teachers, or everyone I've spoken to are hiding something from me. In your opinion, which is it?
Bonus question: does anyone have any information on the 2 above courses I mentioned? Any reasons to pick one over the other?

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spurious

I think this has been asked and answered. There are a number of similar threads here.
OP, I suggest you speak with some of the younger teachers in your school. It may surprise you how many of them do not have full hours.

mod:
Suggest members link to proof if they feel another poster is being disingenuous.
Name calling falls below the standard expected here.

Treppen

salonfire wrote: »

If the op chooses the private sector, they cannot claim the OAP until later years.

Public sector pension is made up of the OAP and occupational pension. The entitlement to the OAP is unaffected whereas if private will need to wait until later years to get the OAP.

AS i stated, you have more control on how you manage your private sector pension. Plus if you have a good professional qualification your company can contribute to your pension.

Do you know of any schools who contribute to teacher's public sector pensions?
Can I write to the Department of Education and ask them to manage my own contributions myself and sign out of the pension scheme?

Telling the OP that they have access to the OAP is masking the overall picture.
The new pension scheme for new entrants is rubbish.

Given the OP has an aptitude for maths they could see themselves starting in an MNC in about 5-6 years (if they stuck around for MAsters/PhD after degree) Starting on >35k, Company Pension Contribution, Share Scheme, VHI Paid for + Yearly bonuses . Then if they stuck with it could easily move into the >60k salary after 10 years.

So yet again Salonfire, you don't go into teaching to make money, but maybe that's your experience of being a teacher. It can be a rewarding job in other ways and no way I would cope in an office environment

gaiscioch

If people are interested in a job, will they please, please apply for it? OK, if it's like that Temple Carrig school in Greystones some years ago where they had a 10- or 15-page application form, ignore it, but generally just apply.

Back in the economic turmoil of 2009 I remember speaking with the deputy principal in my Dublin school and she said she had over 500 applications for a subject which was ridiculously oversubscribed - and was one of the two subjects (English and History) which were by far the most popular combination in the Dip when I did it.

In stark contrast, I am aware of three people applying for a very similar post in a very similar Dublin academic school in the past year. I was, and remain, genuinely shocked at how few people applied. I can only surmise, if not assume, that potential candidates thought the job was in the bag for some internal candidate and they didn't apply. The school ended up hiring somebody who was not up to the job, to put it mildly.

Just apply, because you'd be surprised how desperate even schools with a supposedly excellent reputation can be.

byhookorbycrook

salonfire wrote: »

If the op chooses the private sector, they cannot claim the OAP until later years.

Public sector pension is made up of the OAP and occupational pension. The entitlement to the OAP is unaffected whereas if private will need to wait until later years to get the OAP.

Most people in the private sector aren’t forced to start paying for at at age 20.

Treppen

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Most people in the private sector aren’t forced to start paying for at at age 20.

Also the money you put in to the public sector pension scheme you NEVER see it back, all your doing is buying access to a pension scheme.

Plus the extra ASC levy on having a pension every pay check. Public sector only.

Plus the SP&Ch which I kind of agree with but no private sector employee pays that.

am_zarathustra

Treppen wrote: »

Also the money you put in to the public sector pension scheme you NEVER see it back, all your doing is buying access to a pension scheme.

Plus the extra ASC levy on having a pension every pay check. Public sector only.

Plus the SP&Ch which I kind of agree with but no private sector employee pays that.

Which you can't opt out of is you dont have a spouse or kids!

For years there was also the 10% PRD (old asc) on correcting work, but it didnt count towards your pension, literally cognitive dissonance!

Treppen

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Which you can't opt out of is you dont have a spouse or kids!

For years there was also the 10% PRD (old asc) on correcting work, but it didnt count towards your pension, literally cognitive dissonance!

Actually.for SP&CH.. 50,000+ teachers in Ireland all contributing at least €40 per month (I pay €75). Is about >€20,000,000 per year

Whats the payout ?

Don't get me wrong though, I support the scheme to an extent but would like to know it's going where it should.... But I presume it's all into the general tax pot like everything else.

Actually my spouse's private sector company pay out if you expire in service... And she doesn't contribute anything!

[Deleted User]

Treppen wrote: »

So yet again Salonfire, you don't go into teaching to make money, but maybe that's your experience of being a teacher. It can be a rewarding job in other ways and no way I would cope in an office environment

That's simply not true. Stop trying to peddle this myth especially to impressionable minds. For those teachers who are based in rural Ireland in regional villages and towns, they should be able to live very comfortably. They don't have their salaries adjusted downwards to reflect a much lower cost of living compared to Dublin.

There was a recent thread I think it was this forum where teachers where gleefully pronouncing the much lower cost of childcare to give one example.

Your point of better conditions in MNC is true, but limited to the Dublin area. Maybe Cork and Galway to a smaller extent. I guess for people like the OP also need to consider geographically where they would like to settle down in Ireland. MNCs in rural Ireland if they exist at all are of lower quality and offer far lower salaries.

If in the Dublin area, yes they would be at a disadvantage in teaching compared to large MNC. I agree with your point made on this.

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Most people in the private sector aren’t forced to start paying for at at age 20.

And most people in the private sector don't start on salaries of almost €37000. And for those teachers who do earn much less due to not having full-time hours, they pay a tiny percentage of their salary as a contribution due to the thresholds below which no deduction is taken for pensions.

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Which you can't opt out of is you dont have a spouse or kids!

On the flip side, if you get married even after retirement, your spouse becomes fully eligible for the scheme.

There's no reason people can't marry later in life !

byhookorbycrook

salonfire wrote: »

And most people in the private sector don't start on salaries of almost €37000. And for those teachers who do earn much less due to not having full-time hours, they pay a tiny percentage of their salary as a contribution due to the thresholds below which no deduction is taken for pensions.

On the flip side, if you get married even after retirement, your spouse becomes fully eligible for the scheme.

There's no reason people can't marry later in life !

People who have graduated from a four year course can’t be compared to someone starting in the local chipper.

byhookorbycrook

“Our survey shows that the best paid graduate jobs in 2019 were in law, with a mean starting salary of €40000, followed by retail and sales at €33,600. The highest percentage of graduate jobs created in 2019 are in the IT and Technology sector, which comprised 45% of the jobs, with a mean starting salary of €31,701.”
https://gradireland.com/careers-advice/working-in-ireland-and-northern-ireland/salaries-and-benefits-for-new-graduates

Treppen

salonfire wrote: »

That's simply not true. Stop trying to peddle this myth especially to impressionable minds.

Impressionable minds!

salonfire wrote: »

And most people in the private sector don't start on salaries of almost €37000

And after 2 years, you'll have to be given a CID.

MNCs in rural Ireland if they exist at all are of lower quality and offer far lower salaries.

Your point of better conditions in MNC is true, but limited to the Dublin area. Maybe Cork and Galway to a smaller extent.

.

Limited to the Dublin area eh!!

Sligo - Abbotts, Abbvie
Donegal - Abbott
Limerick - J&J, Stryker, Regeneron, Analog Devices
Waterford - Eirgen
Tipperary - MSD , JED Pharma, Boston Scientific
Wicklow - Takeda
Athlone -Jazz Pharma , Medtronic , Abbott , Aerie
Carlow - MSD
Dundalk - Almac

That's just off the top of my head.

And most people in the private sector don't start on salaries of almost €37000.

Entry level Pharmaceutical & Biopharmaceutical salary guide

Quality Control and Quality Assurance – €30,000- 35,000
Microbiologist – €30,000- 35,000
Process Chemists – €30,000-38,000
Biochemist/Biotechnologist – €35,000- 40,000
Analytical Chemist – €35,000-40,000
R&D Scientist – €40,000-45,000
Formulation Scientist – €40,000-60,000

That's just on the basic degree as a minimum requirement..... Throw a masters on that and you could negotiate more (unlike teaching).

salonfire wrote: »

For those teachers who are based in rural Ireland in regional villages and towns, they should be able to live very comfortably.

So would anyone then going by a professional's salary, like Accountant, Solicitor, Engineer, Technician... The OP is choosing between teaching or other careers. Are you saying they'd be better off than other professions in rural Ireland.

salonfire wrote: »

They don't have their salaries adjusted downwards to reflect a much lower cost of living compared to Dublin.

Or Teachers don't have their Salaries adjusted upwards to reflect the much higher cost of living in Dublin.
Anyway, where is the OP from?

salonfire wrote: »

There was a recent thread I think it was this forum where teachers where gleefully pronouncing the much lower cost of childcare to give one example..

How did they "gleefully" pronounce it, with smiley faces or gold dollar sign emojis ?
I think that's in your own head.

salonfire wrote: »

And for those teachers who do earn much less due to not having full-time hours, they pay a tiny percentage of their salary as a contribution due to the thresholds below which no deduction is taken for pensions.

So what? they still get a crap pension.
Getting "much less due to not having full-time hours" is a bad thing btw, not a position you would advise anyone to enter into, least of all - "Impressionable minds" .

salonfire wrote: »

On the flip side, if you get married even after retirement, your spouse becomes fully eligible for the scheme.

There's no reason people can't marry later in life !

But it's enforced insurance. It's like me paying for your VHI. And even at that it's very bad value! I'm paying €75 per month insurance for someone else. That other teacher would be better off taking out a life insurance policy and paying €50 per month of their own money, they'd be better off not paying the extra €75 and I'd be better off not paying €75.

e.g. Zurich would charge you €30 per month to insure your life for 35 years and pay out €500k.

I'm curious as to why you never promote your own profession, or state your salary or pension?
At least you could give us some alternative views and insight outside the realm of your obviously 'well informed' educational experience.

dory

carr62 wrote: »

My daughter is in 5th year and like you is looking at becoming a maths and irish teacher. As far as she can tell, Mary I is the only college that runs a maths & irish teaching course. She really isnt excited by the idea of going to college in Thurles - but im sure its got plenty to attract students. What i dont know though, is how good that degree would be to you if you changed your mind about teaching,?

Very useful. She could easily do a one year conversion type course. Start out in teaching but then do an MBA or a HR course and go into business. I did a bit of a PE course years and years ago. I'm in touch with a few people from it, one's a guard now, one works in business development, one is a communictions manager for an MEP. All eventually had enough of teaching and found it very easy to change direction. Employers like that you were able to handle teenagers for a while!

[Deleted User]

Treppen wrote: »

Impressionable minds!
Anyway, where is the OP from?

I was just re-reading and just spotted this now. I didn't mean to rudely ignore you. To answer the question I'm in a rural town in the southwest, not that it makes any difference in this redundant thread lol

Thanks for all the help anyway

Jeremy Sproket

Treppen wrote: »

AS i stated, you have more control on how you manage your private sector pension. Plus if you have a good professional qualification your company can contribute to your pension.

Do you know of any schools who contribute to teacher's public sector pensions?
Can I write to the Department of Education and ask them to manage my own contributions myself and sign out of the pension scheme?

But your pension is guaranteed! I have to carefully manage mine and invest the funds. You are literally GUARANTEED half your salary PLUS the contributory state pension on top of that.

Jeremy Sproket

So how does it work?

The formula.

(Years worked / 80 ) x final salary + contributory state pension*

So say a teacher goes starts college at 17, does the integrated Science teaching course in DCU and graduates at 21 and immediately starts working (they got lucky) and retire at 65.

65-21 = 44 years of work
Final salary €64,000

So

(44/80)*€64,000=€35,200

State pension which public sector workers can draw at 65 = €230 per week approx. So €11,960 per year.

€47,160 in total.

If any more work was done such as being year head, or form teacher or assistant principal final salary will be higher and thus higher pension.

rainbowtrout

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

But your pension is guaranteed! I have to carefully manage mine and invest the funds. You are literally GUARANTEED half your salary PLUS the contributory state pension on top of that.

Except that is incorrect.

You are guaranteed half your salary if you work the full 40 years. Most teachers don't.

And the pension which is half your salary already contains the state pension.

So quick example:

A teacher finishing on 60k and for convenience they complete the full 40 years so are entitled to a pension of 30k.

13k of that is the state pension which they have been contributing to through their PRSI contributions and the other 17k is what they have been contributing to through their pension payments which they have been making since the age of 22 or thereabouts.

Jeremy Sproket

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Except that is incorrect.

You are guaranteed half your salary if you work the full 40 years. Most teachers don't.

And the pension which is half your salary already contains the state pension.

So quick example:

A teacher finishing on 60k and for convenience they complete the full 40 years so are entitled to a pension of 30k.

13k of that is the state pension which they have been contributing to through their PRSI contributions and the other 17k is what they have been contributing to through their pension payments which they have been making since the age of 22 or thereabouts.

You taught me something today !! :P

So what happens if a teacher retires early 60's with the entitlement to the 30k?

Since you have to wait until you're 65 or 68 to get the PRSI pension does that mean that teacher will only get €17k for the first couple of years then then rest will kick in at 65?

rainbowtrout

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

So how does it work?

The formula.

(Years worked / 80 ) x final salary + contributory state pension*

So say a teacher goes starts college at 17, does the integrated Science teaching course in DCU and graduates at 21 and immediately starts working (they got lucky) and retire at 65.

65-21 = 44 years of work
Final salary €64,000

So

(44/80)*€64,000=€35,200

State pension which public sector workers can draw at 65 = €230 per week approx. So €11,960 per year.

€47,160 in total.

If any more work was done such as being year head, or form teacher or assistant principal final salary will be higher and thus higher pension.

Please if you are going to come into the teaching forum to slag off teachers at least inform yourself of our actual pay and conditions rather than making them up.

It doesn't how many years over 40 you work, the max pension is 40/80ths of final salary. And it's not final salary for anyone that started after 2012, it's based on career average earnings. I've worked in the same school for 20 years and I've only seen two teachers in that time retire having completed the full 40 years. Most others retired earlier or didn't have the years done at retirement because they started teaching later, or took years out to mind children etc.

An assistant principal attracts an extra allowance, some of their duties may include being a year head. Form teachers are generally not posts in Irish schools and do not attract an allowance.

rainbowtrout

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

You taught me something today !! :P

So what happens if a teacher retires early 60's with the entitlement to the 30k?

Since you have to wait until you're 65 or 68 to get the PRSI pension does that mean that teacher will only get €17k for the first couple of years then then rest will kick in at 65?

Teachers who started teaching from 2004 onwards have to wait until 65 at the earliest to get their pension regardless of what age they retire. So they won't be going until 65 unless they have another source of income.

Teachers who joined before 2004 can get their pension before 65 if they meet eligibility requirements in terms of years served, age they are retiring at etc.

Note: if you think it's all cushy in the public sector, a colleague of mine retired last October, she is still waiting for her pension to be paid out to her - she has had no income for the last 8 months as a result.

Also - yes a principal will retire on a higher pension, but there is only one principal in every school. And it's not much different from expecting that the managing director of a private company would retire on a larger pension than the admin staff or people working on the factory floor. There are opportunities for promotion in all professions, but the higher up you go the less jobs there are. Most teachers will not become principals.

Geuze

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

So how does it work?

The formula.

(Years worked / 80 ) x final salary + contributory state pension*

So say a teacher goes starts college at 17, does the integrated Science teaching course in DCU and graduates at 21 and immediately starts working (they got lucky) and retire at 65.

65-21 = 44 years of work
Final salary €64,000

So

(44/80)*€64,000=€35,200

State pension which public sector workers can draw at 65 = €230 per week approx. So €11,960 per year.

€47,160 in total.

If any more work was done such as being year head, or form teacher or assistant principal final salary will be higher and thus higher pension.

First of all, as has been stated already, the 50% of final salary includes the SPC = State Pension Contributory.

Second, it would be extremely unusual to start a full-time teaching job at age 21.

This forum is full of people getting hours here and there, maternity cover, part-time contracts, etc.

Now, I accept that in some subjects that are in demand, students can get FT jobs after four years in college, say age 22 (like Home Ec???).

Third, as stated already max pension is 40/80ths, even if you work 42 or 43 years.

Note that there are various pension schemes.

Pre April 1995
Pre/post 2004
The Single PS Pensions scheme, since 2013

Each has different conditions, the new scheme is less generous, as it is a Career Average Earnings scheme, it is not based on final salary.

Geuze

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

So what happens if a teacher retires early 60's with the entitlement to the 30k?

Since you have to wait until you're 65 or 68 to get the PRSI pension does that mean that teacher will only get €17k for the first couple of years then then rest will kick in at 65?

That is possible, yes.

Retire at 60, receive the work pension element [this will not be the full amount, as you won't have 40 years done at age 60].

Then the SPC starts at age 66, this was meant to be 67 in 2021, but postponed due to election.

However, subject to several conditions, you may be able to receive a supplementary pension during age 60-67, that is complex.

noplacehere

Geuze wrote: »

That is possible, yes.

Retire at 60, receive the work pension element [this will not be the full amount, as you won't have 40 years done at age 60].

Then the SPC starts at age 66, this was meant to be 67 in 2021, but postponed due to election.

However, subject to several conditions, you may be able to receive a supplementary pension during age 60-67, that is complex.

My understanding is it can’t be done on the two more recent scheme either?

rainbowtrout

noplacehere wrote: »

My understanding is it can’t be done on the two more recent scheme either?

Well no, but those teachers cannot receive the teaching portion of their pension until 65 anyway so retiring at 60 or earlier and getting the pension straight away isn’t an option

Jeremy Sproket

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well no, but those teachers cannot receive the teaching portion of their pension until 65 anyway so retiring at 60 or earlier and getting the pension straight away isn’t an option

noplacehere wrote: »

My understanding is it can’t be done on the two more recent scheme either?

Geuze wrote: »

That is possible, yes.

Retire at 60, receive the work pension element [this will not be the full amount, as you won't have 40 years done at age 60].

Then the SPC starts at age 66, this was meant to be 67 in 2021, but postponed due to election.

However, subject to several conditions, you may be able to receive a supplementary pension during age 60-67, that is complex.

Geuze wrote: »

First of all, as has been stated already, the 50% of final salary includes the SPC = State Pension Contributory.

Second, it would be extremely unusual to start a full-time teaching job at age 21.

This forum is full of people getting hours here and there, maternity cover, part-time contracts, etc.

Now, I accept that in some subjects that are in demand, students can get FT jobs after four years in college, say age 22 (like Home Ec???).

Third, as stated already max pension is 40/80ths, even if you work 42 or 43 years.

Note that there are various pension schemes.

Pre April 1995
Pre/post 2004
The Single PS Pensions scheme, since 2013

Each has different conditions, the new scheme is less generous, as it is a Career Average Earnings scheme, it is not based on final salary.

Christ, so it isn't as lucrative as the gutter media make out? With my contributions I make to my workplace pension I'll probably have more or less the same pension if I retire early 60's.

What kind of contribution can I ask is deducted from teachers' wages for the pension? (not including PRSI).

rainbowtrout

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

Christ, so it isn't as lucrative as the gutter media make out? With my contributions I make to my workplace pension I'll probably have more or less the same pension if I retire early 60's.

What kind of contribution can I ask is deducted from teachers' wages for the pension? (not including PRSI).

Pension deduction and pension levy which we have been paying since 2009 (with no increase to the pension) amount to 10.5% of my gross pay. When I include PRSI given that it makes up a significant portion of my final pension I'm paying 14.5% of my gross pay towards pension contributions. I've been doing this since I was 22.

[Deleted User]

[quote="rainbowtrout;117350209" I've been doing this since I was 22.[/quote]

This is not true. The pension levy was introduced in 2009 and before that there is thresholds below which no deduction is taken. So while the headline rate pre 09 may be 6.5%, that was not the gross % taken.

With the now called ASC, the amount you pay is not too dissimilar to deductions private sector workers contribute to their pension schemes.

rainbowtrout

salonfire wrote: »

This is not true. The pension levy was introduced in 2009 and before that there is thresholds below which no deduction is taken. So while the headline rate pre 09 may be 6.5%, that was not the gross % taken.

With the now called ASC, the amount you pay is not too dissimilar to deductions private sector workers contribute to their pension schemes.

I have mentioned in my post that the pension levy was brought in in 2009. Clearly before 2009 I didn't pay the pension levy.

Not sure why you are comparing it to private sector pensions. The question was asked how much teachers pay out for the pension. I answered that. I didn't comment on private sector pensions.

Geuze

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

Christ, so it isn't as lucrative as the gutter media make out? With my contributions I make to my workplace pension I'll probably have more or less the same pension if I retire early 60's.

What kind of contribution can I ask is deducted from teachers' wages for the pension? (not including PRSI).

The PS for workers hired pre 1995 is easiest to explain.

They pay a full 6.5% of their gross.
They have paid the PRD/ASC since 2009
They pay low-rate PRSI.
They do not get PRSI benefits, so no SPC for them.
They can retire from age 60.
Example, start age 22, leave at 62, full 40 years pension conts, receive a pension of 50% of final salary, payable from age 62. Plus a lump-sum of 150% final salary

The pension for people hired after April 1995 is more complex.

They do pay PRSI, and so the PRSI pension and work pension are integrated.

Treppen

salonfire wrote: »

This is not true. The pension levy was introduced in 2009 and before that there is thresholds below which no deduction is taken. So while the headline rate pre 09 may be 6.5%, that was not the gross % taken.

With the now called ASC, the amount you pay is not too dissimilar to deductions private sector workers contribute to their pension schemes.

Are all private sector workers paying into this same pension scheme your taking about?

Are all private sector workers even paying pensions...

noplacehere

Geuze wrote: »

The PS for workers hired pre 1995 is easiest to explain.
They pay a full 6.5% of their gross.

They have paid the PRD/ASC since 2009

They pay low-rate PRSI.

They do not get PRSI benefits, so no SPC for them.

They can retire from age 60.

Example, start age 22, leave at 62, full 40 years pension conts, receive a pension of 50% of final salary, payable from age 62. Plus a lump-sum of 150% final salary

The pension for people hired after April 1995 is more complex.

They do pay PRSI, and so the PRSI pension and work pension are integrated.

Pre 95 is the nicest pension clearly but no one has gotten that in nearly 30 years now so it isn’t a good comparison really to be honest