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Semi auto centre fire rifles

chris1038a

Is there many people out there using Semi auto centre fire rifles for PRS or just target shooting. Or is there many people with them. I was looking at the Savage MSR Recon 2.0

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cookimonster

Firstly I don't target shoot let along do PRS and in fact don't own a semi auto centre fire so my comments are far from helpful.

Centre fire semi auto rifles, as restricted firearms, are a little more awkward to apply for, not impossible but a few more hoops to jump through.

Just a quick Google of that particular rifle says it's in 223 / 5.56. Not that the little round isn't capable of reaching out there in the right configuration (suitable mounts and scope) but the overall design of that particular ammo (especially standard factory ammo) doesn't lend itself to long/ extreme range shooting. The longer heavier bullets stabilise better and are less effected by the wind, that's why you see calibres of 6mm and upwards commonly used in this discipline.

Semi autos can demand a higher price when looking for a greater degree of accuracy whereas a reasonable quality bolt rifle, again with the right optics setup, can achieve better accuracy out of the box.

Although recoil management is better with a semi auto, especially gas operated, the moving parts of the operating system can effect accuracy. PRS rifles are usually bolt action and heavier than thier counterparts used for field shooting giving a more stable platform and allowing observed strikes and follow up shots if required.

Plenty of lads here on Boards with various semi auto centre fire rifles that are used multiple shooting disciplines that will be able to direct you whether it's on applications, suitability and various pros and cons.

otmmyboy2

I've been a restricted CF S/A licencee for target shooting for about a decade now, if you've questions ask away or have a look here for licencing:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058080495
Should have been a stickied thread IMO, given the interest.
Or at least added to the firearms licencing announcement. *cough*Cass*cough*

Recently got my second and considering a third in 9mm as a PCC, or a 223.
I don't do PRS but would be interested in trying it in the future potentially.

Manually operated stuff isn't my thing, so I'd be going for something similar to that nice looking MSR you mentioned, or cheaping out and getting a Norinco CQA and lego-ing most of the bits on it

cookimonster mentioned that you can get a bit of a downside with regards to accuracy with a SA vs manual, but that gap is significantly smaller than it was historically, especially with MSRs.
Also more than made up IMO by the speed of SA vs manual.
If you want something with a bit more oomph at longer ranges you can get the larger MSR type rifles in 6.5 creed, .308, etc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AR_platform_cartridges

Honestly if/when I take that PRS plunge I would go for a .223/5.56, simply because it will be long distance capable enough for PRS, perfect for foxing, and easily/relatively cheaply fed, for a centrefire rifle caliber.

I did get to play with one of these for 2 days a while back and it is a bloody lovely rifle, .223/5.56, pretty much the same recoil as a 10/22, damn accurate, but €2.5K is a bit rich for my blood to actually buy one:

Grizzly 45

chris1038a wrote: »

Is there many people out there using Semi auto centre fire rifles for PRS or just target shooting. Or is there many people with them. I was looking at the Savage MSR Recon 2.0

Use mine for bullseye,prs and hunting ,
I'd be looking at that rifle in .308.
The story of BA Vs SA in the accuracy dept is now pretty moot.
The AR design is now being used to replace many military turn bolt sniper rifles, or is being issued en masse as a designated marksman rifle and is well capable of Sub MOA groupings with a heavier barrel model

cookimonster

Would it not be fair to say that alot of these semi auto rifles used for military snipers are far superior to then run of the mill semi autos ethier issued in service or generally bought off the shelf.

Our own spotter rifle is a highly upgraded FN, which cost more to do so then if the DF had purchased a dedicated rifles for the job.

As it has been said before military sniper accuracy let alone the general infantry is not the same as target shooting. The practical goal is to hit an average man sized torso. Yes they can achieve a much finer degree of accuracy but to day they are using match style ammo backed up with more or less customized rifles.

mud dog

chris1038a wrote: »

Is there many people out there using Semi auto centre fire rifles for PRS or just target shooting. Or is there many people with them. I was looking at the Savage MSR Recon 2.0

I've been shooting precision rifle comps since 2013 and have used AR 15 and AR 10 platform in America and here in Ireland! more widely used in the tac div in the American in both NRL and PRS
so that Mil guys can run their work weapon's!
so yes you can run them for PRS shooting they have their own advantages and disadvantages ! and as the guys said! the 223 is more then capable to get out to distance but you would need to be running 69gr and above , which we don't have a massive selection here in Ireland. But they are great fun to shoot ! And definitely worth the extra effort to licence! Need any help just ask !

otmmyboy2

cookimonster wrote: »

Would it not be fair to say that alot of these semi auto rifles used for military snipers are far superior to then run of the mill semi autos ethier issued in service or generally bought off the shelf.

Depends strongly on the components.
IE an SR-25 is a 7.62x51 S/A rifle used by several militaries, capable with the right ammo of being sub moa.
Similarly, OP's Savage MSR has been accuracy tested and capable of sub moa groups with the right ammo too.

A lot of technology from target shooters went into the military, ie military contract firearms, and with overruns and already tooled up for that manufacturing a lot of commercial offerings with essentially the same components(minus F/A, etc) hit the civilian market.

End result these days is a decent manually operated gun out of the box and a decent MSR out of the box are going to be damn close in accuracy terms, with the obvious other advantages S/A brings.

Actually a good case in point, the H&K MR223 I posted a pic of.
When I was doing my course with that rifle I was chatting to the instructor, a police firearms & marksman trainer.
He was issued a H&K 416 for duty use.
His take?
Pretty much the same accuracy & functionality wise.
They don't use F/A for obvious reasons, but apart from that pretty much the same.

My .02 - I think that manually operated rifles still have a place, but I do think that they are largely obsolete by comparison to S/A.

Grizzly 45

cookimonster wrote: »

Would it not be fair to say that alot of these semi auto rifles used for military snipers are far superior to then run of the mill semi autos ethier issued in service or generally bought off the shelf.

Remember what we say about "Mil spec" equipment?;) Equipment made by the lowest bidder for a Govt contract with tolerances of +/- 4mm in the critical working parts? But actually no in the case of "peacetime" rifles and equipment. These are off the shelf HK/Knights armament that are civvie spec. They just have a military spec data number, and may or may not have select-fire.But come off the same production line.

Our own spotter rifle is a highly upgraded FN, which cost more to do so then if the DF had purchased a dedicated rifles for the job

.

Yes let's not mention taking old 1970s barrel shot out FAL rifles off the armoury racks,and monkeying new DSA stocks and fore-ends onto them, and not being able to shoot 3inch groups at 100 yards!

As it has been said before military sniper accuracy let alone the general infantry is not the same as target shooting. The practical goal is to hit an average man-sized torso. Yes they can achieve a much finer degree of accuracy but to day they are using match style ammo backed up with more or less customized rifles.

But a better comparison would be the police sniper Vs a target shooter. Both are working on supreme accuraccy, We want V bulls, they want pink mist headshots, on the roughly same target size, use almost the same types of rifles in SA, as they both dont have to sneak away after their shot lugging an 8kilo rifle, are within a distance, more or less, of under 500 meters . Ammo is virtually the same match grade, except the police get the best on our taxpayer's wages, and can use hunting ammo for shooting targets, and we are stuck with plain old FMJ match ammo.

Should add onto this, in a police role the bolt action is still a good gun for the job, and there would be few if any situations that you would need a lot of semi- full auto fire as a police sniper. But as things and equipment progress, we have to keep up with the times and if the accepted doctrine is now to use a semi-auto in these situations, then you go with what those above say is the in thing.

cookimonster

Good stuff here, keep it coming.

clivej

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Use mine for bullseye,prs and hunting ,
I'd be looking at that rifle in .308.

And its great to see you shooting your .308 S/A on the line in the Bullseye comps. A NICE BIG BANG, and I'm glad I'm at the other end of the line.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Remember what we say about "Mil spec" equipment?;) Equipment made by the lowest bidder for a Govt contract with tolerances of +/- 4mm in the critical working parts? .

When i hear "mil-spec" i think cheap and walk away from it.

chris1038a

I talked to an RFD, as semi auto rifle wouldn't be something that would be in stock. I'd have to pay the full price up front and it specially ordered in. Which I understand.
If I didn't get the licence for some reason. I'd have to wait for the rifle to be sold before getting any funds back.
Were you able to have a meeting with the Chief prior to the application, to get his view if the application would be allowed.

otmmyboy2

chris1038a wrote: »

I talked to an RFD, as semi auto rifle wouldn't be something that would be in stock. I'd have to pay the full price up front and it specially ordered in. Which I understand.
If I didn't get the licence for some reason. I'd have to wait for the rifle to be sold before getting any funds back.
Were you able to have a meeting with the Chief prior to the application, to get his view if the application would be allowed.

I'd shop around on that one.
Worst I've had to do when ordering one through a dealer was 50%

Also if there is a shop in the EU that you are looking at getting it from give them a buzz and ask could you put down say a 20% deposit for the serial, and they can ship it to you once it gets approved? I've done that a couple times, most recently from the UK.

I've yet to get a meeting with the CS "pre-application", as it were, but it isn't unheard of.
Often times if you ring the FO or the divisional office and ask. You might get a feeling from them whether it'd be possible, or even a phone meeting would do it.

Alternative possibly if you wanted to play it safer, with less potential for monetary loss/withholding?
Find a dealer with a Remington R15 or similar, about the most common CF S/A MSR in 223 in Ireland I'd say, and ask for a serial number, do the deposit, etc.

Once you get the licence submit a sub and swap it onto the rifle you actually want, since you now have the licence granted it would just be a paperwork exercise.
If you have an RFD who'd facilitate it that is.

I know CillDara hunting had one a few months back, and there was another gunshop in Dublin a few years ago that had one, but I cannot recall the name. Was in a shopping mall kindof spot.
Was an army surplus/fishing shop with a gunshop section. Had a lovely AT-4 hanging up too, and a nice Webley revolver

jb88

chris1038a wrote: »

I talked to an RFD, as semi auto rifle wouldn't be something that would be in stock. I'd have to pay the full price up front and it specially ordered in. Which I understand.
If I didn't get the licence for some reason. I'd have to wait for the rifle to be sold before getting any funds back.
Were you able to have a meeting with the Chief prior to the application, to get his view if the application would be allowed.

You talked to the wrong RFD

jb88

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

I'd shop around on that one.
Worst I've had to do when ordering one through a dealer was 50%

Also if there is a shop in the EU that you are looking at getting it from give them a buzz and ask could you put down say a 20% deposit for the serial, and they can ship it to you once it gets approved? I've done that a couple times, most recently from the UK.

I've yet to get a meeting with the CS "pre-application", as it were, but it isn't unheard of.
Often times if you ring the FO or the divisional office and ask. You might get a feeling from them whether it'd be possible, or even a phone meeting would do it.

Alternative possibly if you wanted to play it safer, with less potential for monetary loss/withholding?
Find a dealer with a Remington R15 or similar, about the most common CF S/A MSR in 223 in Ireland I'd say, and ask for a serial number, do the deposit, etc.

Once you get the licence submit a sub and swap it onto the rifle you actually want, since you now have the licence granted it would just be a paperwork exercise.
If you have an RFD who'd facilitate it that is.

I know CillDara hunting had one a few months back, and there was another gunshop in Dublin a few years ago that had one, but I cannot recall the name. Was in a shopping mall kindof spot.
Was an army surplus/fishing shop with a gunshop section. Had a lovely AT-4 hanging up too, and a nice Webley revolver

There are a couple of specialist dealers in Ireland, ask one of them.

beauf

cookimonster wrote: »

Would it not be fair to say that alot of these semi auto rifles used for military snipers are far superior to then run of the mill semi autos ethier issued in service or generally bought off the shelf.

Our own spotter rifle is a highly upgraded FN, which cost more to do so then if the DF had purchased a dedicated rifles for the job.

As it has been said before military sniper accuracy let alone the general infantry is not the same as target shooting. The practical goal is to hit an average man sized torso. Yes they can achieve a much finer degree of accuracy but to day they are using match style ammo backed up with more or less customized rifles.

Apologies if you know this, but there are different roles in the military.

Sniper Designated marksman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Designated_marksman
The concept of these overlap and some armies call designated marksman snipers when they aren't really. That follows through to the rifles.
A semi auto sniper rifle is not the same as designated marksman semi auto rifle.

Designated marksman is also about volume of fire to keep a units head down. Much like a light machine gun. But they are mostly accurate out to a limited range. But also you don't need to be that accurate if you can take 10 shots in the time a "sniper" can take 3, as you can miss, correct, and get more hits on target. But they are more accurate and out to a longer distance than the regular squad rifle. They just aren't sniper rifles.
The history of this is interesting. https://www.forgottenweapons.com/history-of-the-designated-marksmans-rifle-video/

So there all kind of of Designated marksman rifles, some more accurate than Others. Some are closer to a sniper rifle some less so.

I assume for target shooting you'd have to decide how accurate you want to be, within your ability and budget, ease of use etc.

Grizzly 45

clivej wrote: »

And its great to see you shooting your .308 S/A on the line in the Bullseye comps. A NICE BIG BANG, and I'm glad I'm at the other end of the line.

Thats why I got it silenced,so not to alarm the senior citizens...:D:D:D:D

Cass

All posts (about 30 of them) relating to licensing/proposed ban have been moved out of the target forum into their own thread on the main shooting section, here.

They were in violation of rule#1 of the forum ........

Absolutely no politics.

All discussion relating to legislation, associations, infighting, reform, etc, etc, belongs in the main Shooting forum and will be moved there without warning or appeal if it shows up in here and an infraction will be marked against the relevant users.

.............so they're were moved to the main forum.

chris1038a

What type of competitions have you been competing in using your centre fire rifles.

jb88

chris1038a wrote: »

What type of competitions have you been competing in using your centre fire rifles.

When shooting resumes, this is what has been going on for years.

There are competitions in Kerry at An Riocht.
Across the course type shooting
Civilian Marksmanship Program competitions in the US

Practices in Midlands at 200 yards & 300 yards. competition practice with .223 Service rifles, AR15 Type with specific set ups. (About twice a month) before Lockdown.

M1 Garand practices for 200 yard shooting in Midlands and 300m in An Riocht.

1903 Springfield 200 yard practices.

M1 Carbine 100 yard /M practices.

4 x competitions in An Riocht Kerry every year in which you are more than welcome to compete with a Semi Auto CF (Once lockdown is over) Electronic Targets, sure why not. Great fun indeed.

Grizzly 45

Bulleye 360 in Midlands as well.