Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

You are just taking reopening to Tuam and tacking on other less ridiculous projects to bring down the ridiculousness average. The Public Spending Code was introduced to avoid these types of situation where an end result is determined and then work backwards to try justify it in any way you can. Other projects on the line are not dependent on reopening Tuam, adding in Tuam just makes other improvements less likely to happen. No matter what way you dress it up, it is still spending €50m+ just to serve Tuam.

a tiny amount of money to serve a growing and modernising town as part of a much bigger modernisation plan.
a complete bargain.

ezstreet5 wrote: »

True. Tuam is the place where all the benefits accrue. If I lived there, I would be livid that there were those insinuating that the town was not worth the investment of 150 million to connect it to the railway network at Athenry and Claremorris. It is a small amount of money, and it is cost effective.

that's exactly how i would feel as well if i'm honest.

mayo.mick wrote: »

Has everyone very short memories
The section that was opened, in 2011, Irish Rail were going to close again in 2016

yes it was likely a politically motivated stunt, either to get more money or because of whoever operated it pre-nationalisation or something.
i wouldn't use that as an argument for or against anything personally tbh.

[Deleted User]

end of the road wrote: »

a tiny amount of money to serve a growing and modernising town as part of a much bigger modernisation plan.
a complete bargain.

Still not a high enough CB ratio to put it ahead of the other more deserving and beneficial rail projects that are crying out for investment. As a result it will not get built

This is what IE are aiming for

https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1368909934532960260?s=20

The WRC doesn't even get a mention, hell its barely on the map lol

Deleted User wrote: »

Still not a high enough CB ratio to put it ahead of the other more deserving and beneficial rail projects that are crying out for investment. As a result it will not get built

This is what IE are aiming for

https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1368909934532960260?s=20
.
The WRC doesn't even get a mention, hell its barely on the map lol

well it wouldn't, surely no one would describe the line as Inter City, even though it is possible to use the current service to travel from a City to a City. (Tuam definitely isn't a City)

ezstreet5

end of the road wrote: »

yes it was likely a politically motivated stunt, either to get more money or because of whoever operated it pre-nationalisation or something.
i wouldn't use that as an argument for or against anything personally tbh.

It was a stunt, and related to the pay dispute with the unions brewing at the time.

Pete_Cavan

ezstreet5 wrote: »

True. Tuam is the place where all the benefits accrue. If I lived there, I would be livid that there were those insinuating that the town was not worth the investment of 150 million to connect it to the railway network at Athenry and Claremorris. It is a small amount of money, and it is cost effective.

Every person in every town in the country can be equally livid that €150m investment isn't being made in their pet project in their town. Some people seem to think that the taxpayer owes Tuam a rail connection. This isn't the Late Late Show, there isn't a €150m investment for everyone in the audience. The government has to prioritise spending based on economic justification for any particular project (cost v benefit) and alignment with national strategies, on both fronts there are many many projects ahead of WRC.

Deleted User wrote: »

Still not a high enough CB ratio to put it ahead of the other more deserving and beneficial rail projects that are crying out for investment. As a result it will not get built

This is what IE are aiming for

https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1368909934532960260?s=20

The WRC doesn't even get a mention, hell its barely on the map lol

the fact there are other projects ahead of it is a non-issue as nobody is saying put it at the top of the list of things to do.
however it should be built and if the campaign continues then i reccan eventually it will be, whatever about to claremorris.

ezstreet5 wrote: »

It was a stunt, and related to the pay dispute with the unions brewing at the time.

ah yes that's right actually.

now that you mention it the usual suspects are threatened with closure every time there is a pay issue, it's to try and pit passengers against the staff most likely, which is disgusting and offensive in my opinion.

end of the road wrote: »

the fact there are other projects ahead of it is a non-issue as nobody is saying put it at the top of the list of things to do.
however it should be built and if the campaign continues then i reccan eventually it will be, whatever about to claremorris.

ah yes that's right actually.

now that you mention it the usual suspects are threatened with closure every time there is a pay issue, it's to try and pit passengers against the staff most likely, which is disgusting and offensive in my opinion.

Just to adjust the argument slightly, would you rather a Luas for Galway?

It would be more useful by providing a line from Knocknacarra out to Ballybrit, with a spur out to Claregalway where there would be a P&R. It would take a lot more passengers, and alleviate the traffic problems in Galway CC.

The M17 already provides fast access to Galway from Tuam.

Greaney

Sam Russell wrote: »

The M17 already provides fast access to Galway from Tuam.

A very car-centric view. For those who cannot drive/ haven't a car, a motorway is not an automatic option.

Greaney wrote: »

A very car-centric view. For those who cannot drive a motorway is not an automatic option.

but a coach may be...

Greaney

Isambard wrote: »

but a coach may be...

1) Coaches have to apply for licences for route changes and they have not done here to fore
2) They don't take bikes
3)They're not wheelchair/mobility scooter accessible
4) They're not part of a greater network in the same way rail is.
5) They are not the preferred choice of public transport by those seeking long term treatment in UCHG

Greaney wrote: »

A very car-centric view. For those who cannot drive/ haven't a car, a motorway is not an automatic option.

Neither is a train in Tuam for someone who lives out the road - say in Clonacurry, seven and a half Km north of Tuam on the N17. How does someone living there get to Tuam?

Railways are great if you live in walking distance of the station, but not so great if you do not.

I am not car centric in my approach, I just think there are a lot more pressing projects - like a Luas (or BRT) for Galway CC - to rebalance public transport there.

The concentration is always on big ticket capital projects, like the ring road, or the WRC extension to Tuam, with no regard to the obvious projects like bus lanes and cycle ways, or P&R, or even more and better buses.

How about more one-way streets to speed the current buses through the city centre?

Greaney wrote: »

1) Coaches have to apply for licences for route changes and they have not done here to fore
2) They don't take bikes
3)They're not wheelchair/mobility scooter accessible
4) They're not part of a greater network in the same way rail is.
5) They are not the preferred choice of public transport by those seeking long term treatment in UCHG

pretty weak argument really.

Liceneses could be obtained and already exist

Not impossible to carry a bike.

wheelchair capable buses and coaches are the norm nowadays
you won't get a mobility scooter on a train either

They don't need to be part of a netwrok to run from Tuam to Galway, loads of buses doing that everyday in normal times

UCHG? is that rail accessible?

[Deleted User]

Greaney wrote: »

2) They don't take bikes

Yes they do. At least I've yet to be refused. In fact there are less restrictions regarding bikes on buses versus bikes on trains

Greaney wrote: »

3)They're not wheelchair/mobility scooter accessible

Yes they are

From BE themselves: "As we continue to invest in new fleet, the overall percentage of wheelchair-accessible vehicles continues to grow. At present, Bus Éireann’s City and Town services are 100% wheelchair accessible, with Commuter and Expressway services at 78%. Overall, 86% of Bus Éireann vehicles are accessible to wheelchair users."

Greaney wrote: »

4) They're not part of a greater network in the same way rail is.

I'm baffled by that statement. Below, a comparison of BE vs IE networks

Greaney wrote: »

5) They are not the preferred choice of public transport by those seeking long term treatment in UCHG

You don't do major infrastructural projects for niche markets, however emotive the topic is.

ohographite

Sam Russell wrote: »

For example the number of passengers Dublin Rosslare is given as 384,000 while Dublin Wicklow as 338,000, which implies Wicklow Rosslare is only 46,000 - or just 884 per week, an average of about a dozen passengers per train. A very different story for the Wicklow Rosslare portion.

I would imagine that the 384, 000 journeys made on the Dublin-Rosslare line in 2019 included just the journeys made to or from somewhere on the line south of Wicklow, with the 338, 000 journeys labelled as Dublin-Wicklow including just the journeys made from Wicklow or Kilcoole to Dublin(and possibly also a handful from Kilcoole to Wicklow).

On the 2019 Heavy Rail Census, in Appendix A, the number of daily northbound boardings in all the stations combined from Rosslare Europort to Rathdrum was 413, and in Appendix B, the number of daily southbound alightings was 552.
That meant that at least 965 journeys were made on the section of railway between Wicklow and Rosslare Europort on the day that census was taken*, and that was an average of 96 passengers per train.
I accept that the number of journeys made on any railway is different every day, but 965 journeys a day is significantly higher than 126 journeys a day, which would be the daily journeys in 2019 if 46, 000 journeys were made in 2019.
That is why I imagine that the 338, 000 Dublin-Wicklow journeys are not included in the 384, 000 Dublin-Rosslare journeys.

Here is the 2019 Heavy Rail Census:
http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/NTA_Heavy_Rail_Census_Report_2019..pdf

*I am not sure if the daily boardings and alightings in the census are only the number of journeys each station was used for one one particular day, or the average number of journeys they were used for in one day that year(in other words, all the journeys made in a year divided by the number of days the station was open for that year).

Sam Russell wrote: »

Just to adjust the argument slightly, would you rather a Luas for Galway?

It would be more useful by providing a line from Knocknacarra out to Ballybrit, with a spur out to Claregalway where there would be a P&R. It would take a lot more passengers, and alleviate the traffic problems in Galway CC.

The M17 already provides fast access to Galway from Tuam.

do both projects and have even more passengers and less congestion.
M17on it's own is not enough, it can only be a part solution and it will be at capacity eventually.

end of the road wrote: »

do both projects and have even more passengers and less congestion.
M17on it's own is not enough, it can only be a part solution and it will be at capacity eventually.

The only congestion on the M17 is not on the M17, or the M6, but on the N6 at the Coolagh roundabout. Sort that out, and you will be fine.

You could propose sorting out Claregalway while you are at it.

Now I would like to see both sorted by an ambitious Luas solution that would provide P&R nearby both problems, feeding across Galway CC to Knocknacarra. I am not proposing a route as that would best be done by a qualified person.

ezstreet5

Sam Russell wrote: »

The only congestion on the M17 is not on the M17, or the M6, but on the N6 at the Coolagh roundabout. Sort that out, and you will be fine.

You could propose sorting out Claregalway while you are at it.

Now I would like to see both sorted by an ambitious Luas solution that would provide P&R nearby both problems, feeding across Galway CC to Knocknacarra. I am not proposing a route as that would best be done by a qualified person.

We've devolved into SimCity to avoid the reality of our hated railway. One lad is placing busses all over his patch to serve the diverse needs of the populous, while another (more generous) lad with several billion euros is building a Luas to Claregalway.

Geuze

Geuze wrote: »

Well the passing loop at Oranmore is more than a proposal.

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/119009/passing-bay-at-oranmore-station-first-phase-of-possible-double-tracking

The council and IE are applying for funding for it.

As for the larger project to double to Athenry, I don't know what stage that is at.

Funding has been approved for the passing loop at Oranmore.

https://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2021/0312/1203564-west-regeneration/

jmlfc

https://vivarail.co.uk/
Here is an option for a battery powered train which would be eco friendly to run the WRC
Plus much less expensive than laying heavy rail and the other option of electrification.

jmlfc

L1011

Those will never be available in Irish gauge - they are an as cheap as possible conversion of 40+ year old tube stock (with a limited supply thereof).

They would require as heavy rail as DMUs

They would not have the range for the full length even one way

jmlfc wrote: »

https://vivarail.co.uk/
Here is an option for a battery powered train which would be eco friendly to run the WRC
Plus much less expensive than laying heavy rail and the other option of electrification.

Does it hover? ;-)

I see the rail lobby has made their submission to the Mayo County Development Plan

eastwest wrote: »

I see the rail lobby has made their submission to the Mayo County Development Plan

The writer could get even more nostalgia from a properly constructed greenway. I think children playing next to a live railway is just a no-no in tis day and age.

Trespassing on a railway line is taken very seriously by IR.

eastwest wrote: »

I see the rail lobby has made their submission to the Mayo County Development Plan

taking the p....mickey...

https://consult.mayo.ie/en/submission/myo-c11-696

Isambard wrote: »

taking the p....mickey...

It has to be.
Good one though.

westtip

Whilst we talk away in this vacuum, it is worth noting that it looks like well over 600 submissions supporting greenway on the closed railway from Charlestown to Claremorris have been received by Mayo County Council.

People and public bodies have had their say, none more so than Irish Rail who have at long last put it in writing to Mayo County Council what is achievable north of Claremorris. They have mixed their words up a bit on the Velorail project but at last we don’t have to listen to some folk telling us it is “illegal” to have a greenway on this route. Thank you Irish Rail, north of Claremorris is now officially, game over.

8. Greenway Development: Iarnród Éireann notes that the Council aim to support and facilitate the EuroVelo rail project on the Western Rail Corridor as an interim use for the rail line pending its reopening for passenger and rail freight. Iarnród Éireann will continue to provide conditional support for the development of a greenways in locations where the railway does not have a short to medium term viable business case for reintroduction of services. In terms of the Western Rail Corridor, this conditional support is subject to the section north of Claremorris. Greenways help to keep the asset in state ownership and keep the asset utilised, and then if there is a decision at some time in the future that it should go back to railway use, the licensing arrangement is such that it can do so

westtip wrote: »

Whilst we talk away in this vacuum, it is worth noting that it looks like well over 600 submissions supporting greenway on the closed railway from Charlestown to Claremorris have been received by Mayo County Council.

People and public bodies have had their say, none more so than Irish Rail who have at long last put it in writing to Mayo County Council what is achievable north of Claremorris. They have mixed their words up a bit on the Velorail project but at last we don’t have to listen to some folk telling us it is “illegal” to have a greenway on this route. Thank you Irish Rail, north of Claremorris is now officially, game over.

https://consult.mayo.ie/en/submission/myo-c11-696

my layman interpretation of that is that IE note the Councils Velorail aim and dismisses it in favour of a Greenway