How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

downcow wrote: »

As seen from Francieworld lol

As seen from the Francieworld lol

NeuralNetwork

I don't think we're having a proper discussion about what reunification would look like.

There's an assumption in the Republic and amongst some nationalists that Northern Ireland would just somehow slot in as just another 6 historical counties and everyone will live happily ever after. The end. I can't really see how that would work smoothly. Even if you were a nationalist, it would be quite a kick in the pants to suddenly lose all the devolved powers.

We need to be looking at possibly a federal Ireland with at least two, if not more states and the possibility of Northern Ireland retaining some kind of in-between status if that's what it would take.

I'd like to see a united Ireland, but not one that's been slammed back together without a complete rethink of how government runs.

Also, on things like the NHS vs the HSE. The HSE spends more money per capita than the NI NHS and it would seem bonkers to suggest that the NI system would suddenly just be replaced with the Republic's systems - we surely could come up with a better system that provides universality and replaces both? Neither of them are as good as the could be and the Republic's system is in dire need of reform anyway.

There are some things which the Republic does better, and others the North has done better and really we could be going for best of both or better than both.

Whatever comes about, it would need to be capable of making both Northern Ireland communities feel at home and that might mean some special status for Northern Ireland within a broader framework of a united Ireland. I can't really see how it would work any other way. You'd not going to undo 100 years of partition in single referendum and a snap change.

It's probably a highly destabilising suggestion.

What I would like to see at the moment is a referendum in Northern Ireland on accepting the special status within the European Single market and Northern Ireland protocols and not a charged debate about a united Ireland. If we could put those beyond petty politics and Tory meddling it would be a fantastic achievement. Then we could get on with making the special status work!

At least that would get us back to some prospect of sanity on this island, whatever about what's going on in English poltiics.

I think facilitating something like that is where the US and Biden could play a very important role.

I think we need to recognise where we are and what the risks of losing that might be. It's far too soon, in my view, to make sudden moves towards a united Ireland and it seems counterproductive to bold the EU special status arrangements to that discussion. What we need at the moment is to preserve the peace process, the Good Friday Agreement and the growing sense of being an interconnected all-Ireland economy and society, making the best of being in two jurisdictions.

There isn't an all or nothing outcome to this and there possibly never will be.

RobMc59

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

I don't think we're having a proper discussion about what reunification would look like.

There's an assumption in the Republic and amongst some nationalists that Northern Ireland would just somehow slot in as just another 6 historical counties and everyone will live happily ever after. The end. I can't really see how that would work smoothly. Even if you were a nationalist, it would be quite a kick in the pants to suddenly lose all the devolved powers.

We need to be looking at possibly a federal Ireland with at least two, if not more states and the possibility of Northern Ireland retaining some kind of in-between status if that's what it would take.

I'd like to see a united Ireland, but not one that's been slammed back together without a complete rethink of how government runs.

Also, on things like the NHS vs the HSE. The HSE spends more money per capita than the NI NHS and it would seem bonkers to suggest that the NI system would suddenly just be replaced with the Republic's systems - we surely could come up with a better system that provides universality and replaces both? Neither of them are as good as the could be and the Republic's system is in dire need of reform anyway.

There are some things which the Republic does better, and others the North has done better and really we could be going for best of both or better than both.

Whatever comes about, it would need to be capable of making both Northern Ireland communities feel at home and that might mean some special status for Northern Ireland within a broader framework of a united Ireland. I can't really see how it would work any other way. You'd not going to undo 100 years of partition in single referendum and a snap change.

It's probably a highly destabilising suggestion.

What I would like to see at the moment is a referendum in Northern Ireland on accepting the special status within the European Single market and Northern Ireland protocols and not a charged debate about a united Ireland. If we could put those beyond petty politics and Tory meddling it would be a fantastic achievement. Then we could get on with making the special status work!

At least that would get us back to some prospect of sanity on this island, whatever about what's going on in English poltiics.

I think facilitating something like that is where the US and Biden could play a very important role.

That sounds very reasonable but I doubt it will appeal to resident disgruntled republicans who's heads are full of fanciful,improbable notions.

RobMc59 wrote: »

That sounds very reasonable but I doubt it will appeal to resident disgruntled republicans who's heads are full of fanciful,improbable notions.

.....except it has been discussed extensively on this very thread by those so called disgruntled Republicans. The consensus among the vast majority being that we absolutely shouldn't just subsume NI into Ireland, but rather use it as an opportunity to build a new Ireland.

Can always trust you to land in with such confidently incorrect statements though.

NeuralNetwork

RobMc59 wrote: »

That sounds very reasonable but I doubt it will appeal to resident disgruntled republicans who's heads are full of fanciful,improbable notions.

On both sides of Northern Ireland's conflict you've always had people who were all or nothing in their approach. The GFA brought about compromise and the majority of people accept that.

The whole resolution to the conflict was an acceptance that Northern Ireland has a special situation that required a special status and for it to exist between two realities almost like Schrödinger's cat.

If we start getting back to absolutes around Northern Ireland, which is exactly what the Tories are playing at at the moment, everything will become a problem again.

We're suddenly in a situation where you've English nationalists in power in London and they're playing with fire in Northern Ireland. There was so much effort put into the peace process and there were so many lives lost, people injured and lives turned upside down because of that conflict that it is really something worth saving.

It's sickening to see Boris Johnson and others playing with that as if it's just some parlour game or Eaton debate and the DUP in particular have jumped on board with that, which is something that they should be ashamed of, as one of the largest parties in Northern Ireland and one that many people might have hoped had moved on from the days of stirring up problems.

All the current batch of Tories seem to see is the GFAs a product of a Labour government and their only tools are tabloid jingoism. So, they'll just keep poking at it until it breaks, because they can do nothing sane or constructive.

This "Union Unit" is dangerous in the context of Northern Ireland and would be the equivalent of the Irish Government setting up something like "The United Ireland Office." It completely removes their status as a neutral guarantor of the GFA and they obviously know that, as they're not stupid.

Also from the USA's point of view their facilitation of NI Peace Process was one of the huge success stories of American foreign policy in the 1990s and it really needs to ensure that mini-Trump in London doesn't unravel the whole thing.

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

I don't think we're having a proper discussion about what reunification would look like.

There's an assumption in the Republic and amongst some nationalists that Northern Ireland would just somehow slot in as just another 6 historical counties and everyone will live happily ever after. The end. I can't really see how that would work smoothly. Even if you were a nationalist, it would be quite a kick in the pants to suddenly lose all the devolved powers.

We need to be looking at possibly a federal Ireland with at least two, if not more states and the possibility of Northern Ireland retaining some kind of in-between status if that's what it would take.

I'd like to see a united Ireland, but not one that's been slammed back together without a complete rethink of how government runs.

Also, on things like the NHS vs the HSE. The HSE spends more money per capita than the NI NHS and it would seem bonkers to suggest that the NI system would suddenly just be replaced with the Republic's systems - we surely could come up with a better system that provides universality and replaces both? Neither of them are as good as the could be and the Republic's system is in dire need of reform anyway.

There are some things which the Republic does better, and others the North has done better and really we could be going for best of both or better than both.

Whatever comes about, it would need to be capable of making both Northern Ireland communities feel at home and that might mean some special status for Northern Ireland within a broader framework of a united Ireland. I can't really see how it would work any other way. You'd not going to undo 100 years of partition in single referendum and a snap change.

It's probably a highly destabilising suggestion.

What I would like to see at the moment is a referendum in Northern Ireland on accepting the special status within the European Single market and Northern Ireland protocols and not a charged debate about a united Ireland. If we could put those beyond petty politics and Tory meddling it would be a fantastic achievement. Then we could get on with making the special status work!

At least that would get us back to some prospect of sanity on this island, whatever about what's going on in English poltiics.

I think facilitating something like that is where the US and Biden could play a very important role.

I think we need to recognise where we are and what the risks of losing that might be. It's far too soon, in my view, to make sudden moves towards a united Ireland and it seems counterproductive to bold the EU special status arrangements to that discussion. What we need at the moment is to preserve the peace process, the Good Friday Agreement and the growing sense of being an interconnected all-Ireland economy and society, making the best of being in two jurisdictions.

There isn't an all or nothing outcome to this and there possibly never will be.

.....and if NI, in your referendum, rejects staying in the EU single market, what do you propose?

NeuralNetwork

downcow wrote: »

.....and if NI, in your referendum, rejects staying in the EU single market, what do you propose?

Well, if they reject it, they're endorsing a hard border and all that comes with that and signing off on the end of the GFA. If that's what the population of Northern Ireland wants, which I think is EXTREMELY unlikely, there's not much anyone can do for them.

There needs to be a grown up debate and it needs to be kicked beyond petty politics, much as the GFA itself was. I think that's where an external facilitator like the US is going to have to become involved.

The present day UK government is not capable of doing so. It's a far cry from the days of Mo Mowlam.

Can you imagine what she'd think of the situation now? I remember those days of pragmatism and common sense. It seems a lifetime away now.

Trying to run anything like that in the midst of the pandemic would be a total nightmare however.

Junkyard Tom

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

Whatever comes about, it would need to be capable of making both Northern Ireland communities feel at home and that might mean some special status for Northern Ireland within a broader framework of a united Ireland.

NI will cease to exist. I could imagine maybe a nine county Ulster assembly but the former border will have to be very deliberately expunged from the body politic of Ireland for good.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

NI will cease to exist. I could imagine maybe a nine county Ulster assembly but the former border will have to be very deliberately expunged from the body politic of Ireland for good.

And it is attitudes like that that will ensure there is never a UI. Keep up the good work tom. I’d love to see you become president of Roi

RobMc59

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

NI will cease to exist. I could imagine maybe a nine county Ulster assembly but the former border will have to be very deliberately expunged from the body politic of Ireland for good.

Very good Tom,all of which is very reassuring to those worried about their identity being airbrushed out by arrogant,highhanded republicans.

RobMc59 wrote: »

Very good Tom,all of which is very reassuring to those worried about their identity being airbrushed out by arrogant,highhanded republicans.

And no criticism whatsoever for the, 'even in the event of a democratic vote to unify Ireland, NI must be retained eternally no matter what' brigade, Rob?

That's the old colonial idea of compromise, where the other person just does what you want.

RobMc59 wrote: »

Very good Tom,all of which is very reassuring to those worried about their identity being airbrushed out by arrogant,highhanded republicans.

Who is going to airbrush out an identity by getting rid of a border forever on the island?

Nobody.

Your identity is your concern, it will be up to those identifying as British to maintain their identity. They should learn from the experience of those after independence who simply and foolishly removed themselves from the functioning of the state and so facilitated their own decline.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

And it is attitudes like that that will ensure there is never a UI.

Unionists have no veto on the democratic will of the people of Ireland.

You must be thinking of a few hundred years ago.

It is wonderful news and a lovely neighbourly gesture that our first minister is encouraging Boris to offer vaccines to ROI to rescue their vaccine programme.
This will be great, not only for you guys in ROI, but it will help us exit lockdown quicker as otherwise the open border is going to be an issue.
The more cooperation across our two islands the better.

downcow wrote: »

It is wonderful news and a lovely neighbourly gesture that our first minister is encouraging Boris to offer vaccines to ROI to rescue their vaccine programme.
This will be great, not only for you guys in ROI, but it will help us exit lockdown quicker as otherwise the open border is going to be an issue.
The more cooperation across our two islands the better.

Easiest way to ensure cross border cooperation is no border, Downcow. You'd be back in the EU and get rid of all those NI Protocol issues you find so egregious too.

Didn't have you down as a closet Republican at all!

ulster

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

NI will cease to exist. I could imagine maybe a nine county Ulster assembly but the former border will have to be very deliberately expunged from the body politic of Ireland for good.

Probably need a federal level and province level arrangement for that to work.

Folks we had a discussion the other day about your state broadcaster being unknowingly partisan.
I switched on tonight to see was there any mention of potential English Channel checks. Of course there wasn’t, but that aside. They done fairly extensive coverage of English football, several games shown, interviews, etc. It was notable that there was zero mention of rangers winning the league. Even the UK national news put the Scottish premiership win and the fan celebrations ahead of all English football news.
You guys are so blinkered you can’t even see how your national broadcasters is so alien to northern unionists.
I could say stronger things about their reasons for ignoring it, but that would just be speculation.
If you ever got your UI it would be some shock to your system lol

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Easiest way to ensure cross border cooperation is no border, Downcow. You'd be back in the EU and get rid of all those NI Protocol issues you find so egregious too.

Didn't have you down as a closet Republican at all!

But I would also still be waiting for my vaccine

downcow wrote: »

But I would also still be waiting for my vaccine

You'd also be more likely to have already died.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

It is wonderful news and a lovely neighbourly gesture that our first minister is

I recommend you encourage the leader of Unionism to begin her charm offensive at home with her Irish neighbours in the northeast of Ireland because they have her, and your, constitutional future in their hands.

Fionn1952 wrote: »

You'd also be more likely to have already died.

:-)

downcow wrote: »

Folks we had a discussion the other day about your state broadcaster being unknowingly partisan.
I switched on tonight to see was there any mention of potential English Channel checks. Of course there wasn’t, but that aside. They done fairly extensive coverage of English football, several games shown, interviews, etc. It was notable that there was zero mention of rangers winning the league. Even the UK national news put the Scottish premiership win and the fan celebrations ahead of all English football news.
You guys are so blinkered you can’t even see how your national broadcasters is so alien to northern unionists.
I could say stronger things about their reasons for ignoring it, but that would just be speculation.
If you ever got your UI it would be some shock to your system lol

?? That's how I found out Rangers had won the league, on RTE downcow.

I've heard of 'hearing things' not heard of 'not hearing things'.

And what 'potential checks in the English Channel'?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM_5o4pGkXs

downcow wrote: »

:-)

Which would you prefer, out of curiosity Downcow? Speaking for myself, I'd prefer to live in the state in which I'm less likely to die or to lose a loved one.

briany

One thing I find incorrect, here...

In this video, there is a sign which says 'Ulster is British. No surrender." Ulster is a province which consists of nine counties, not six, and there are no prizes for guessing which way the counties of Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal lean in terms of religion and national identity. The sign should say, "Northern Ireland is British." if only to be geographically correct in what they're trying to say and stop trying co-opt the name of Ulster as poetic alternate name for NI, which it is not.

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Which would you prefer, out of curiosity Downcow? Speaking for myself, I'd prefer to live in the state in which I'm less likely to die or to lose a loved one.

Bit of a strange question. But honestly, I would rather be where the UK is now. But I didn’t lose anyone through covid.
We have light at the end of the tunnel but if you get Bbc then Andrew marr this morning is worth getting on catch up. He has great experts on each morning. Interesting lady this morning. On positives the UK vaccine rollout is excellent and vaccine will deal with all current known strains. Also UK is leading world in ability to monitor new vaccines.
But. And it’s a big but. New strains that vaccine will not handle are a potential in due course and actually the more effective the vaccine is may make us more open to dangerous variants. Also there has been very little other respiratory infections due to precautions so our immunity to this will be greatly reduced so flu etc could be far more dangerous than ever in the autumn.

briany wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM_5o4pGkXs

One thing I find incorrect, here...

In this video, there is a sign which says 'Ulster is British. No surrender." Ulster is a province which consists of nine counties, not six, and there are no prizes for guessing which way the counties of Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal lean in terms of religion and national identity. The sign should say, "Northern Ireland is British." if only to be geographically correct in what they're trying to say and stop trying co-opt the name of Ulster as poetic alternate name for NI, which it is not.

Ulster has been used for years by many as a pet name for NI. Everyone knows what is meant. We have the UUP, PUP, UDA USPCA, RUAS, I could go on and on. We call our flag the Ulster flag etc
I could equally get annoyed that you often refer to your country, etc as Ireland

downcow wrote: »

Ulster has been used for years by many as a pet name for NI. Everyone knows what is meant. We have the UUP, PUP, UDA USPCA, RUAS, I could go on and on. We call our flag the Ulster flag etc
I could equally get annoyed that you often refer to your country, etc as Ireland

It is Ireland, you live in a bit of the northern part.

lurleen lumpkin

downcow wrote: »

I could equally get annoyed that you often refer to your country, etc as Ireland

Because it is Ireland?

downcow wrote: »

Bit of a strange question. But honestly, I would rather be where the UK is now. But I didn’t lose anyone through covid.
We have light at the end of the tunnel but if you get Bbc then Andrew marr this morning is worth getting on catch up. He has great experts on each morning. Interesting lady this morning. On positives the UK vaccine rollout is excellent and vaccine will deal with all current known strains. Also UK is leading world in ability to monitor new vaccines.
But. And it’s a big but. New strains that vaccine will not handle are a potential in due course and actually the more effective the vaccine is may make us more open to dangerous variants. Also there has been very little other respiratory infections due to precautions so our immunity to this will be greatly reduced so flu etc could be far more dangerous than ever in the autumn.

I was unfortunate enough to lose two close family members and have a friend spend significant time in ICU in the last year due to the virus. All three live(d) in the North, so of course I'm coming at this from a biased perspective, but I suspect the head start the UK has had on the vaccination, combined with the calculated risk to delay second dosages will not be enough to balance out the higher death rate when this is all over.

What I'm getting at is that we have all had positives and negatives with regards to dealing with the pandemic. While the later UK response with the vaccine is worth commendation, I think the early response from the UK was highly misguided.

All in all, I think it is an issue which transcends politics and one that I would've preferred to see more co-operation between the UK and Ireland (and the UK and the broader EU too.)