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Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

[Deleted User]

Carrying on with the discussion as the other thread is full

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2055766866/1

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Sam Russell

Ireland trains wrote: »

Dublin - rosslare figures are seperate from the Dublin- Wicklow figures. The former are stations south of wicklow. I doubt there are less than 900 people using the train in large towns such as enniscorthy, gorey and wexford.

Doubting hardly cuts it. What are the real figures of people boarding or alighting for each station?

Giving a figure for Dublin Galway suggests they all travel the whole way, which is not the case. Last time I travelled on that route, the number getting on near Galway surprised me. A near empty train suddenly filled up as we got close to Galway. It would suggest a local Commuter service for Galway might generate enough traffic to be viable.

It appears to me these numbers are cherry picked to match an agender.

Ireland trains

Sam Russell wrote: »

For example the number of passengers Dublin Rosslare is given as 384,000 while Dublin Wicklow as 338,000, which implies Wicklow Rosslare is only 46,000 - or just 884 per week, an average of about a dozen passengers per train. A very different story for the Wicklow Rosslare portion.

When you drill down on the figures, large holes appear.]

Dublin - rosslare figures are seperate from the Dublin- Wicklow figures. The former are stations south of wicklow. I doubt there are less than 900 people using the train in large towns such as enniscorthy, gorey and wexford.

ezstreet5

Sam Russell wrote: »

Source?

Fare take?

I'm not going to spoon feed data on here. It's in the public domain.

Sam Russell

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Ennis-Athenry saw 161,100 passengers in 2019. I don't think that figure is in dispute.

Source?

Fare take?

[Edit: You posted the source as I posted above. The figures are given as totals with no detail. The measure of fare take would indicate the length of the journey.

For example the number of passengers Dublin Rosslare is given as 384,000 while Dublin Wicklow as 338,000, which implies Wicklow Rosslare is only 46,000 - or just 884 per week, an average of about a dozen passengers per train. A very different story for the Wicklow Rosslare portion.

When you drill down on the figures, large holes appear.]

ohographite

Sam Russell wrote: »

What is the source for your figure of 159,000 journeys?

That is the only figure you give. You then do some arithmetic on the number to produce some metric not used anywhere else - equivalent to the furlong per fortnight type of figure used in parodies.

I got the figure of 159, 000 journeys from the Rail Users Ireland website, which says the figure comes from a Freedom Of Information request on Irish Rail.
Here is the link to where I got it from:
http://www.railusers.ie/news/news.php?year=2020&no=2.html

I believe you that passenger km are not an official metric, but using passengers as a metric instead means that a 5km journey is worth the same as a 100km one.

ezstreet5

Sam Russell wrote: »

What is the source for your figure of 159,000 journeys?

Ennis-Athenry saw 161,100 passengers in 2019. I don't think that figure is in dispute.

Isambard

there could be a project that would give some justification for the Tuam extention.

If a direct curve were installed at Athenry, thus speeding up the Limerick to Galway service by removing the reversal, coupled with double track Athenry New Junction to Galway, a Tuam Athenry Oranmore and Galway service could be introduced and the Athenry (and maybe Oranmore also?) stop on the Dublin trains omitted, speeding up that service and improving the service from Ballinasloe et al.

The Tuam line would be small beer in such an overall project which would benefit three services.

Sam Russell

ohographite wrote: »

I don't mean to be rude, but I don't see what statistics in my post are dubious, or what suppositions are unfounded.
The 159, 000 journeys I mentioned only includes journeys that made use of the section between Ennis and Athenry.

What is the source for your figure of 159,000 journeys?

That is the only figure you give. You then do some arithmetic on the number to produce some metric not used anywhere else - equivalent to the furlong per fortnight type of figure used in parodies.

The Ennis to Athenry service is in service, but its existence is being cited as justification to extend it to Tuam, and onto Collooney and Sligo. There is little (no) justification for such an extension.

How much was the fare income on the Ennis to Athenry in 2019? By that I mean to include any tickets sold to cover journeys that conveyed passengers over that part of the route - perhaps apportioning the fares might be useful, but not necessary. Is there any source for that figure?

[Deleted User]

ohographite wrote: »

The figures I used were the 159, 000 journeys on Ennis-Athenry(a statistic from Irish Rail) and the 106 million euro spent on reopening it, which has been mentioned here:
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/passenger-traffic-on-limerick-galway-rail-line-up-57-in-seven-years-1.3624503
The other figures I used were the 100, 000 journeys a day expected on Metrolink if it is built, and the 3 billion euro it would cost, which was mentioned here:
http://www.independent.ie/regionals/fingalindependent/news/3-billion-metro-line-is-finally-moving-forward-36744732.html

I did not make up these figures, so my post on this thread did have a basis.

I was referring to makey-upey figures on the Wex/Waterford thread

ohographite

Deleted User wrote: »

Sorry, no they didn't. They were back of the envelope calculations with no basis in reality.

The figures I used were the 159, 000 journeys on Ennis-Athenry(a statistic from Irish Rail) and the 106 million euro spent on reopening it, which has been mentioned here:
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/passenger-traffic-on-limerick-galway-rail-line-up-57-in-seven-years-1.3624503
The other figures I used were the 100, 000 journeys a day expected on Metrolink if it is built, and the 3 billion euro it would cost, which was mentioned here:
http://www.independent.ie/regionals/fingalindependent/news/3-billion-metro-line-is-finally-moving-forward-36744732.html

I did not make up these figures, so my post on this thread did have a basis.

[Deleted User]

end of the road wrote: »

they did but you simply don't agree with them, which is a different thing.

Sorry, no they didn't. They were back of the envelope calculations with no basis in reality.

Even taking those figures as gospel it still didn't stack up when compared to other rail projects.

Using those figure, would, at best case, mean reopening that line sometime after 2050 if and only if, there was nothing else to spend money on in the rail network

ezstreet5

goingnowhere wrote: »

But metrolink will return a surplus just like Luas. It will not need ongoing operating subsidies

Every rail line requires subsidies. We're not going to shut down DART because it loses €0.90 per passenger, or Dublin-Cork because it loses €22.10 per passenger.

ohographite

goingnowhere wrote: »

But metrolink will return a surplus just like Luas. It will not need ongoing operating subsidies

There are operational railways in Ireland which were not much busier than Ennis-Athenry before the lockdown started. Linerick-Ennis and Manulla-Ballina were only slightly busier, and they are not as controversial, but I'd say they need subsidies as well.

ohographite

Sam Russell wrote: »

[Passenger Km] is not a recognised metric for investment.

A lot of dubious statistics in your post, along with plenty of suppositions that are unfounded in any reality. Most of the statistics coming from that line are of dubious merit, where passengers are counted from Ennis to Galway even if they alight at Oranmore for Galway.

The line does not make any positive contribution to its running cost. 220 passengers each way each day. Three full coaches each way from Ennis to Athenry would carry that many passengers at significant lower cost.

A 5 kilometre metro journey from Glasnevin to Dublin city centre is not comparable to a 120 kilometre train journey from Limerick to Galway.

I don't mean to be rude, but I don't see what statistics in my post are dubious, or what suppositions are unfounded.
The 159, 000 journeys I mentioned only includes journeys that made use of the section between Ennis and Athenry.

ezstreet5

Sam Russell wrote: »

The M18 is built.

When were the trains full, and how often does it occur?

The M18 is built, but not paid for. We still still owe over €812 million on that, which we will be paying off until 2042.

end of the road

Sam Russell wrote: »

The M18 is built.

When were the trains full, and how often does it occur?

the ennis athenry line is also rebuilt.
from what i gather full trains was a regular thing before covid, but perhapse those on here who have reported it will fill in the exact details when they can.

Sam Russell

end of the road wrote: »

no as the infrastructure cost of those coaches has to be taken into account, said infrastructure being more expensive.
we have had a number of reports either on here or other places of full trains on the line, which 3 coaches certainly would not provide such capacity.

The M18 is built.

When were the trains full, and how often does it occur?

end of the road

Sam Russell wrote: »

[Passenger Km] is not a recognised metric for investment.

A lot of dubious statistics in your post, along with plenty of suppositions that are unfounded in any reality. Most of the statistics coming from that line are of dubious merit, where passengers are counted from Ennis to Galway even if they alight at Oranmore for Galway.

The line does not make any positive contribution to its running cost. 220 passengers each way each day. Three full coaches each way from Ennis to Athenry would carry that many passengers at significant lower cost.

only if you discount the infrastructure cost of those coaches. said infrastructure being more expensive.
not to mention that we have had reports of full trains on the line, some here and a lot on other areas of the web, for which 3 coaches could in no way take that capacity.

Deleted User wrote: »

Your arguments didn't stand up to scrutiny in the Wex/Waterford thread and they won't here either

they did but you simply don't agree with them, which is a different thing.

[Deleted User]

ohographite wrote: »

There is a reason why I still don't think that reopening the section of railway between Ennis and Athenry was a waste of money.
The reason is that it has been used for a similar number of passenger kilometres to the number of passenger kilometres that the Dublin Metrolink is expected to be used for if reopened, relative to the amount of money it cost to reopen.

I might not have explained that very well, but I will show how many passenger kilometres both railway investments(Metrolink & Ennis-Athenry) would carry in a day, relative to the money needed to introduce them.

The section of railway between Ennis and Athenry was used for 159, 829 journeys in 2019, which works out as 440 journeys a day.
My guess is the average length of a journey made on it is 80km, as most journeys on it probably make use of both the Ennis-Athenry section and railways which were already open, like Limerick-Ennis or Athenry-Galway, and these journeys probably wouldn't have been made on any railway at all without Ennis-Athenry reopening.
440 journeys a day, with 80km as the average length of the journey, makes 32, 000 passenger km a day on the Ennis-Athenry section in 2019.
It cost 106 million euro to reopen, for 32, 000 passenger km a day, so that works out as 30, 188 passenger km a day per 100 million euro spent on it.

The Dublin Metrolink, if built, is expected to be used for 100, 000 journeys a day. My guess is that the average length of a journey which would be made on it is 10km.
So if that estimate is correct, it would be used for 1 million passenger km a day.
It would cost 3 billion euro to reopen, for 1 million passenger km a day, so that works out as 33, 333 passenger km a day per 100 million euro spent on it.

The Dublin Metrolink would still be used for more passenger km than Ennis-Athenry relative to the money spent on it, but not by enough of a difference to make Dublin Metrolink a good investment and also make Ennis-Athenry an inherently crazy investment.

Your arguments didn't stand up to scrutiny in the Wex/Waterford thread and they won't here either

Sam Russell

[Passenger Km] is not a recognised metric for investment.

A lot of dubious statistics in your post, along with plenty of suppositions that are unfounded in any reality. Most of the statistics coming from that line are of dubious merit, where passengers are counted from Ennis to Galway even if they alight at Oranmore for Galway.

The line does not make any positive contribution to its running cost. 220 passengers each way each day. Three full coaches each way from Ennis to Athenry would carry that many passengers at significant lower cost.

goingnowhere

But metrolink will return a surplus just like Luas. It will not need ongoing operating subsidies

ohographite

There is a reason why I still don't think that reopening the section of railway between Ennis and Athenry was a waste of money.
The reason is that it has been used for a similar number of passenger kilometres to the number of passenger kilometres that the Dublin Metrolink is expected to be used for if reopened, relative to the amount of money it cost to reopen.

I might not have explained that very well, but I will show how many passenger kilometres both railway investments(Metrolink & Ennis-Athenry) would carry in a day, relative to the money needed to introduce them.

The section of railway between Ennis and Athenry was used for 159, 829 journeys in 2019, which works out as 440 journeys a day.
My guess is the average length of a journey made on it is 80km, as most journeys on it probably make use of both the Ennis-Athenry section and railways which were already open, like Limerick-Ennis or Athenry-Galway, and these journeys probably wouldn't have been made on any railway at all without Ennis-Athenry reopening.
440 journeys a day, with 80km as the average length of the journey, makes 32, 000 passenger km a day on the Ennis-Athenry section in 2019.
It cost 106 million euro to reopen, for 32, 000 passenger km a day, so that works out as 30, 188 passenger km a day per 100 million euro spent on it.

The Dublin Metrolink, if built, is expected to be used for 100, 000 journeys a day. My guess is that the average length of a journey which would be made on it is 10km.
So if that estimate is correct, it would be used for 1 million passenger km a day.
It would cost 3 billion euro to reopen, for 1 million passenger km a day, so that works out as 33, 333 passenger km a day per 100 million euro spent on it.

The Dublin Metrolink would still be used for more passenger km than Ennis-Athenry relative to the money spent on it, but not by enough of a difference to make Dublin Metrolink a good investment and also make Ennis-Athenry an inherently crazy investment.

westtip

Deleted User wrote: »

There's more than one reason why you see thousands walking & cycling on greenways, regardless of where they are, compared to roads in the same localities.

Have a think about what those reasons are and feel free to post what you think they might be.

Indeed DC a trawl through the archives (OMG how long have we been at this!) would be useful, in March 2007. Yes that is not a typo......14 years ago Failte Ireland published A Strategy for the Development of Irish Cycle Tourism

In the first few pages it said this:

o Cycling on Irish roads is not perceived to be safe – cyclists face dangerous bends, fast cars, intimidating HGVs, more traffic and higher speeds;
o There are very few, if any, traffic-free routes to cater for touring cyclists wanting to leave the cities to discover the countryside or for
families who wish to participate in cycling;
o Airlines and ferry companies do not make iteasy to carry bikes, there is no evidence ofa coherent network, much less one that is linked to a reliable public transport system;
o Compared with other European destinations, the system and facilities in Ireland for the carriage of bikes on trains is poor and cycle parking facilities at many train stations are inadequate;
o The lack of good quality, strategically located, professionally run bicycle and accessory hirefacilities is a key constraint.

Now some of these issues have been worked on but much of it remains the same.

eastwest

Greaney wrote: »

I didn't say all.... just the top ones

At over 400,000 annual trips, it's not exactly one of the bottom ones.

[Deleted User]

There's more than one reason why you see thousands walking & cycling on greenways, regardless of where they are, compared to roads in the same localities.

Have a think about what those reasons are and feel free to post what you think they might be.

Greaney

eastwest wrote: »

The Veenbahn isn't, and it's extremely popular. Neither is the Monsal Trail in the UK, and look at how busy that is.
https://www.vennbahn.eu/en/about-the-project/

I didn't say all.... just the top ones

eastwest

Greaney wrote: »

Those routes you describe are by water. The top 10 cycle ways in Germany are all by water.

Athenry to Tuam railway line is not

The Veenbahn isn't, and it's extremely popular. Neither is the Monsal Trail in the UK, and look at how busy that is.
https://www.vennbahn.eu/en/about-the-project/

Greaney

eastwest wrote: »

I'd suggest taking a trip to dungarvan, which was sluggish, to say the least, and to kilmacthomas, which was dead. And maybe take a look at Tubbercurry and Coolaney now, so you can have a baseline against which to measure the changes in five years time.

Those routes you describe are by water. The top 10 cycle ways in Germany are all by water.

Athenry to Tuam railway line is not

ezstreet5

eastwest wrote: »

I'd suggest taking a trip to dungarvan, which was sluggish, to say the least, and to kilmacthomas, which was dead. And maybe take a look at Tubbercurry and Coolaney now, so you can have a baseline against which to measure the changes in five years time.

The Waterford Greenway is truly stunning, with its viaduct, bridges, tunnel, and view of the sea. If we had those features, I might be a little more optimistic. Perhaps Athlone to Mullingar would be a better comparator. However, from a greenway perspective, the line north of Athenry is plagued with perfectly straight sections - some of which continue for miles without a bend. It only starts to get interesting for a cyclist once you get to Kiltimagh perhaps.

In a former life, I lived adjacent to a 50km+, wholly segregated greenway. I quite literally clocked up thousands of miles cycling on it, and I can say that those long straight sections, with a headwind, were soul-destroying.

Isambard

Del.Monte wrote: »

Because you can't. There are not a couple of dozen rail projects that are realistically under any sort of consideration.

Off the top of my head these are the only ones that I can think of.

1. DART Underground/Metro to Swords.
2. Various Luas extensions.3.

3. Extension of MGWR route to Navan.
4. Midleton/Youghal
5. Charleville/Limerick via Patrickswell.
6. Limerick/Foynes.

7. Mullingar/Athlone.
8. Waterford/Wexford.

you added the consideration bit. There are many other projects that could be added to your list and still be ahead of the WRC in cost/benefit terms.

Your list bizarrely includes Mullingar/Athlone and Midleton/ Youghal , both Greenways in the near future.

Being discussed is improvements to suburban rail in Cork and Limerick as an example.