How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Are you suggesting it would be petty to respond to a country intentionally and unilaterally flouting an agreement they came to only a few weeks ago?!

It takes a very peculiar mindset for one to gloat that their government can't be trusted to uphold their international agreements....

Surely they wouldn’t complain that the U.K. are allowing used machinery to move between two of its regions when the machines have been washed but some little specs of soil may remain?
I think it poses interesting questions.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I think BoJo and Frost's 'wonderful' deal should not be ratified until the British learn to behave themselves.

In fact there's a part of me that wants a complete breakdown in EU/UK relations and for Britain to suffer the consequences of the DUP/Tory Brexit.

I never thought we would agree on anything Tom, but there is part of me also wants a complete breakdown and a no deal

We are both probably cutting off our noses to spite our faces as NI would lose its advantageous position and Roi would be screwed

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Are you suggesting it would be petty to respond to a country intentionally and unilaterally flouting an agreement they came to only a few weeks ago?!

It takes a very peculiar mindset for one to gloat that their government can't be trusted to uphold their international agreements....

It's all a ruse and the Unionists will once again be shafted when they get the mileage out of this distraction. The distraction being keeping the gullible believing that Britain is at war with the badboy EU.

Watch the British row back from this position quietly.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It's all a ruse and the Unionists will once again be shafted when they get the mileage out of this distraction. The distraction being keeping the gullible believing that Britain is at war with the badboy EU.

Watch the British row back from this position quietly.

You could be right. Same way as the ira rowed back from their brits our demand

downcow wrote: »

Surely they wouldn’t complain that the U.K. are allowing used machinery to move between two of its regions when the machines have been washed but some little specs of soil may remain?
I think it poses interesting questions.

The UK have unilaterally decided to ignore an agreement they just signed up to (and boasted about how great it was).....you're suggesting that if the EU respond to this, they are being petty and demonstrating that they don't care about NI.....but seem to ignore how petty it was of the UK to make this decision (and announce it for cheap political capital) when an extension was already being discussed with the EU through the proper channels......or how agreeing to it in the first place if it is so egregious a demand would demonstrate precisely how important the UK government consider NI.

The mental gymnastics you need to pull to simultaneously use this to criticise the EU (the reactionary party in the dispute) and to excuse the UK of all responsibility (the instigatory party) is mind boggling.

The specific nature of what part of the agreement the UK have chosen to ignore is irrelevant, the fact of the matter is that they agreed to these terms they are choosing to ignore, and they are leaving their reputation in tatters on the international stage by demonstrating that they cannot be trusted to keep their word.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

We are both probably cutting off our noses to spite our faces as NI would lose its advantageous position and Roi would be screwed

You'd be cutting off your head, Britain would be severely harmed and could face serious unrest. Ireland would be fine as less than 8% of our goods go to Britain and our supply lines via direct ferries to mainland Europe/EU bypass the chaos.

Businesses in the north would be glad of the withdrawal agreement (which is separate to trade arrangements) and unfettered access to the rest of the EU.

Fionn1952 wrote: »

The UK have unilaterally decided to ignore an agreement they just signed up to (and boasted about how great it was).....you're suggesting that if the EU respond to this, they are being petty and demonstrating that they don't care about NI.....but seem to ignore how petty it was of the UK to make this decision (and announce it for cheap political capital) when an extension was already being discussed with the EU through the proper channels......or how agreeing to it in the first place if it is so egregious a demand would demonstrate precisely how important the UK government consider NI.

The mental gymnastics you need to pull to simultaneously use this to criticise the EU (the reactionary party in the dispute) and to excuse the UK of all responsibility (the instigatory party) is mind boggling.

The specific nature of what part of the agreement the UK have chosen to ignore is irrelevant, the fact of the matter is that they agreed to these terms they are choosing to ignore, and they are leaving their reputation in tatters on the international stage by demonstrating that they cannot be trusted to keep their word.

Compare and contrast.
UK will allow tractors to go to ni with specs of soil on them
EU decided to prevent a lorry load of vital vaccines travelling to ni
Both contravened the protocol.

Catch yourself on with your holier than thou nonsense

downcow wrote: »

Compare and contrast.
UK will allow tractors to go to ni with specs of soil on them
EU decided to prevent a lorry load of vital vaccines travelling to ni
Both contravened the protocol.

Catch yourself on with your holier than thou nonsense

One is happening, one was discussed as a potential option and dismissed. Only one side is actually contravening the Protocol, despite your Daily Express headline type assertions to the contrary.

Still haven't addressed the mental gymnastics you employ to avoid acknowledging Britain being more guilty than the EU of any of the accusations you're making with regards to consideration for NI.....particularly poignant given that NI is part of the UK and not part of the EU, so it one would expect the UK to make more effort on what is in NI's best interests, not less.

downcow wrote: »

Compare and contrast.
UK will allow tractors to go to ni with specs of soil on them
EU decided to prevent a lorry load of vital vaccines travelling to ni
Both contravened the protocol.

Catch yourself on with your holier than thou nonsense

This is just giggle level stuff and probably indicative of why Unionism is where it is.

The first is decades old EU protection of it's single market, which the UK was happy to do when a member and who AGREED to protect when the deal was ratified in the HoC. I.E. This is in the agreement.
The other is a dispute with a company playing fast and loose with the terms of a contract.

You'll lose this fight and the sad thing is, you won't know why, so blinded are you.

Kermit.de.frog

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I think BoJo and Frost's 'wonderful' deal should not be ratified until the British learn to behave themselves.

Brits gonna Brit

Heard Nigel Dodds on Radio 1 this evening, he is not very nice at all. Very aggressive, talking to the presenter in a terrible way. Again, why does someone like that reach the top of unionism? There has to be more ability there. Just very rude and aggressive, terrible attributes for a politician anywhere else.

UDAWINNER

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Heard Nigel Dodds on Radio 1 this evening, he is not very nice at all. Very aggressive, talking to the presenter in a terrible way. Again, why does someone like that reach the top of unionism? There has to be more ability there. Just very rude and aggressive, terrible attributes for a politician anywhere else.

If Micheal was a proper leader he would call out Idiots like Dodds and Sammy and the rest of the DUP for the racist, homophopes that they are. But he won't as it would not suit his Anti SF agenda.

UDAWINNER

downcow wrote: »

Compare and contrast.
UK will allow tractors to go to ni with specs of soil on them
EU decided to prevent a lorry load of vital vaccines travelling to ni
Both contravened the protocol.

Catch yourself on with your holier than thou nonsense

This never actually happened.
Worth remembering that the DUP signed up for this protocol as they wanted Brexit at all costs. They own this, now deal with it like adults and not have their murdering, drug dealing pals issuing threats. How can anyone can support a racist, homophobic party like the DUP is beyond me. Proper leaders would work with the agreement they have to benefit both sides of the community but when has Unionists ever done that, never

Kermit.de.frog

Jonathan Powell quite forthright - the border in the sea is going nowhere.

https://twitter.com/jude5456/status/1367776730711265288

Fionn1952 wrote: »

One is happening, one was discussed as a potential option and dismissed. Only one side is actually contravening the Protocol, despite your Daily Express headline type assertions to the contrary.

Still haven't addressed the mental gymnastics you employ to avoid acknowledging Britain being more guilty than the EU of any of the accusations you're making with regards to consideration for NI.....particularly poignant given that NI is part of the UK and not part of the EU, so it one would expect the UK to make more effort on what is in NI's best interests, not less.

You don’t understand the UK. Who is Britain? That’s like saying Leinster doesn’t care about Connaught. The political entity and internationally recognised territory is ROI,
When you refer to Britain and NI you are discussing an internal issue. ROI is external and at the moment encouraging EU to be antagonistic and petty towards the UK. It’s actually pathetic

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Heard Nigel Dodds on Radio 1 this evening, he is not very nice at all. Very aggressive, talking to the presenter in a terrible way. Again, why does someone like that reach the top of unionism? There has to be more ability there. Just very rude and aggressive, terrible attributes for a politician anywhere else.

The irony.
I have no love for the dup old guard and agree with you analysis, but it is ironic that you describe them as aggressive when SF have british MPs who have murdered and tortured their constituents

UDAWINNER wrote: »

This never actually happened.
Worth remembering that the DUP signed up for this protocol as they wanted Brexit at all costs. They own this, now deal with it like adults and not have their murdering, drug dealing pals issuing threats. How can anyone can support a racist, homophobic party like the DUP is beyond me. Proper leaders would work with the agreement they have to benefit both sides of the community but when has Unionists ever done that, never

Again I agree with you and am bemused that so many continue to support DUP politicians who are homophobic. I do though need to call you out as the unionist community can’t understand how so many can support a party that is the political wing of a sectarian murder gang who devastated their neighbours

downcow wrote: »

You don’t understand the UK. Who is Britain? That’s like saying Leinster doesn’t care about Connaught. The political entity and internationally recognised territory is ROI,
When you refer to Britain and NI you are discussing an internal issue. ROI is external and at the moment encouraging EU to be antagonistic and petty towards the UK. It’s actually pathetic

Britain is the island to the right of the island of Ireland which is made up of three parts of the UK, with the fourth part of the UK not being part of Britain.

It has often been (reasonably) stated that certain Irish government decisions are too Dublin centric, in those cases it would be quite reasonable to state that Leinster is demonstrating that it doesn't care about anywhere outside The Pale. I certainly wouldn't be getting my knickers in a twist if someone used that terminology.

Furthermore, describing the UK's decision to leave the EU and the UK's decision to agree to a withdrawal treaty dictating the UK's future relationship with the EU.....and the EU expecting the UK to actually uphold the agreement they just came to a few weeks ago as EU antagonism.....while giving the UK a free pass on unilaterally trying to ignore said agreement from a few weeks ago....you're practically inside out from all the twisting.

As for Ireland being external to the matter....you may have noticed that the NI protocol does in fact have quite a lot to do with the Irish state....and we are discussing an agreement between the UK and the EU, so it certainly isn't external....so maybe if you want to focus on internal UK matters, don't try and involve treaties you've just agreed to with the EU.

downcow wrote: »

The irony.
I have no love for the dup old guard and agree with you analysis, but it is ironic that you describe them as aggressive when SF have british MPs who have murdered and tortured their constituents

Old guard of SF were responsible for butchery, most Catholics would agree with that Downcow. But SF have adapted better to modern politics, Dodds was simply awful yesterday, odious. But that’s his way and Foster, Wilson and Paisley are little better. The union is going to end if it can’t get a lot of Catholic support, that style of unionist will definitely see it off if they’re let.

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Old guard of SF were responsible for butchery, most Catholics would agree with that Downcow. But SF have adapted better to modern politics, Dodds was simply awful yesterday, odious. But that’s his way and Foster, Wilson and Paisley are little better. The union is going to end if it can’t get a lot of Catholic support, that style of unionist will definitely see it off if they’re let.

I completely agree with you, although seems the ordinary catholic roses above their nonsense and just follows what’s in the best interests of them and their family’s futures. That why Union is secure.

As for SF if you were on the ground here you may have a different view. I reckon the blatant sectarianism and pandering to the past by my local SF MP will ensure they lose their seat to the SDLP next time around.

downcow wrote: »

I completely agree with you, although seems the ordinary catholic roses above their nonsense and just follows what’s in the best interests of them and their family’s futures. That why Union is secure.

As for SF if you were on the ground here you may have a different view. I reckon the blatant sectarianism and pandering to the past by my local SF MP will ensure they lose their seat to the SDLP next time around.

Indeed, going by the tweet you linked to earlier in the thread I wouldn't shed too many tears to see Hazzard go. Transferring his seat to the other major Nationalist party wouldn't spell out much in the grand scheme of things.

If the DUP take the hiding they're expected to (and in reality what all their duplicitous nonsense recently has been about avoiding), we could be looking at a Nationalist First Minster though, which would (at least symbolically) be much more significant.

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Old guard of SF were responsible for butchery, most Catholics would agree with that Downcow. But SF have adapted better to modern politics, Dodds was simply awful yesterday, odious. But that’s his way and Foster, Wilson and Paisley are little better. The union is going to end if it can’t get a lot of Catholic support, that style of unionist will definitely see it off if they’re let.

Where is the voice of the ordinary moderate Unionist though...they are more or less silent.

And you would have to ask why.

Oh oh! It's gitting serious!

https://twitter.com/OfficCrumlinSC/status/1368108676528152577

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where is the voice of the ordinary moderate Unionist though...they are more or less silent.

And you would have to ask why.

Unionism is pretty United in the Irish Sea border. First time they have united for 35 years

downcow wrote: »

Unionism is pretty United in the Irish Sea border. First time they have united for 35 years

While I'm not sure how it is reflected in the opinions of, 'the man on the street', for once you're 100% correct with regards to Unionist leadership at least.

Despite all the dodging that went on, Jim Allister posted a photo of the judicial papers being lodged, and it is signed by himself, Arlene, Steve Aiken and David Trimble. I think we're going back to Paisley and Trimble baiting at Drumcree to find that level of unity among Unionist leadership in NI. That being said, I did note that the ONLY parties to the submission from outside NI are the aforementioned Kate Hoey and the Brexit Party nutter, so I'm not sure this support is well reflected among the broader UK, which seems less united than ever.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Compare and contrast.
UK will allow tractors to go to ni with specs of soil on them
EU decided to prevent a lorry load of vital vaccines travelling to ni
Both contravened the protocol.

Catch yourself on with your holier than thou nonsense

Is NI AstraZenica vaccine manufactured in the EU? I thought it was manufactured in UK sites.

Just on the old soil bit. I used to know someone (since passed away) who worked for Dept of Agric. and would visit farms who used to go on walking holidays abroad. He used to burn all his clothes (including boots worth over £150) when he came back, because having walked through farmland abroad, he didn't want to bring any diseases back to Ireland.

Unionism finds very unfortunate things to unite over. It just never seems to accept that nationalists need to be accommodated if NI is not going to always be a basket case.
Just in the past few years it has fought gay marriage, an Irish language act and the post Brexit protocol. Getting on board with all of these would have been a good move, opposing them all makes it look very angry and unreasonable. Surely the DUP position on gay marriage must have lost it support among Protestants, certainly won’t have made itself more acceptable to the vast majority of Catholics.

jm08

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Jonathan Powell quite forthright - the border in the sea is going nowhere.

https://twitter.com/jude5456/status/1367776730711265288

Congressman Brendan Boyle speaking on Newsnight. I see he is now Vice-Chair of the Ways & Means Committee, with Richard Neal Chair.
https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1367617743210561538

Natterjack from Kerry

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Unionism finds very unfortunate things to unite over. It just never seems to accept that nationalists need to be accommodated if NI is not going to always be a basket case.
Just in the past few years it has fought gay marriage, an Irish language act and the post Brexit protocol. Getting on board with all of these would have been a good move, opposing them all makes it look very angry and unreasonable. Surely the DUP position on gay marriage must have lost it support among Protestants, certainly won’t have made itself more acceptable to the vast majority of Catholics.

Equally, if nationalists had accepted that they should embrace being part of the UK, then there would have been no division, divisiveness, terrorism, destruction, or murder, or cornered unionists feeling threatened. To be fair, matters were not helped by northern nationalists by the south egging them on and officially coveting taking over the north.