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Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

[Deleted User]

Carrying on with the discussion as the other thread is full

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2055766866/1

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Del.Monte

Isambard wrote: »

No I agree. I could list a couple of dozen projects that would be ahead of it in the queue (not going to )

Because you can't. There are not a couple of dozen rail projects that are realistically under any sort of consideration.

Off the top of my head these are the only ones that I can think of.

1. DART Underground/Metro to Swords.
2. Various Luas extensions.3.

3. Extension of MGWR route to Navan.
4. Midleton/Youghal
5. Charleville/Limerick via Patrickswell.
6. Limerick/Foynes.

7. Mullingar/Athlone.
8. Waterford/Wexford.

intellectual dosser

Deleted User wrote: »

What other use case is there?

Pax from beyond Tuam? Won't be built in the next 100 years

Freight? From who? To where? There is no market worth the spend

If Athenry and Claremorris were connected, then a lot of nodes on our rail network become connected along the west coast, I'm not going to list them.

My particular point here is that there is a trend for a particular rail journey being picked and treated as if it the sole purpose of WRC re-implementation, which isn't the case. Its like saying there is limited appeal in cycling from Athenry to Tuam, therefore the case for the Athenry to Enniskillen greenway is dead.

Sam Russell

Del.Monte wrote: »

Because you can't. There are not a couple of dozen rail projects that are realistically under any sort of consideration.

Off the top of my head these are the only ones that I can think of.

1. DART Underground/Metro to Swords.
2. Various Luas extensions.3.

3. Extension of MGWR route to Navan.
4. Midleton/Youghal
5. Charleville/Limerick via Patrickswell.
6. Limerick/Foynes.

7. Mullingar/Athlone.
8. Waterford/Wexford.

I would add:

Dart expansion - all of it.

Limerick - Limerick Junction double track

Re-layout of Limerick Junction

Double track Bray to Greystones.

Mullingar to Athlone

Drogheda to Navan, plus Navan to M3 Parkway.

I am sure there are more.

[Deleted User]

Del.Monte wrote: »

Because you can't. There are not a couple of dozen rail projects that are realistically under any sort of consideration.

Off the top of my head these are the only ones that I can think of.

1. DART Underground/Metro to Swords.
2. Various Luas extensions.3.

3. Extension of MGWR route to Navan.
4. Midleton/Youghal
5. Charleville/Limerick via Patrickswell.
6. Limerick/Foynes.

7. Mullingar/Athlone.
8. Waterford/Wexford.

Some of those won't ever see the light of day either....least not in our lifetimes, and they are miles ahead in terms of benefit when compared to WRC phase 2 which can only lead to the same conclusion as the EY report and other reports before it.

Being realistic, where I'd like to see investment is in improving the current services i.e. double tracking to allow for much higher frequencies, removal of at grade crossings to allow for much higher speeds, switching many stations to request stops only to reduce travel times, when the above is done, a push to make all intercity routes at a min, hourly, 18 hr timetable (6am to midnight)

Do those as you make rail more feasible for more places. New lines get put in at a much higher standard.

Chasing a 19th century dream means you get a service thats only fit for that century

serfboard

Del.Monte wrote: »

There are not a couple of dozen rail projects that are realistically under any sort of consideration.

Off the top of my head these are the only ones that I can think of.

1. DART Underground/Metro to Swords.
2. Various Luas extensions.

3. Extension of MGWR route to Navan.
4. Midleton/Youghal
5. Charleville/Limerick via Patrickswell.
6. Limerick/Foynes.

7. Mullingar/Athlone.
8. Waterford/Wexford.

Of the projects that you listed, where would you place the priority for a WRC north?

serfboard

end of the road wrote: »

galway is choked with traffic and we cannot afford to keep widening the road network to cope with cars and busses both in galway and to the towns around it.

The only solution, for a decade or more, to Galway's traffic problem was the Galway Outer Bypass, to be followed by public transport initiatives after it. However, since the bypass/ring road will not be built for a decade or more, if ever, the public transport initiatives have been re-prioritised.

So, to inform yourself better, I suggest that you examine the plans for Bus Connects Galway. While it does indeed, plan for widening certain roads to install additional Bus Lanes, what's radical about the new thinking are the plans to remove private cars from certain streets altogether - making them Bus only.

Just outside the city, there are also plans to extend the very successful Claregalway Bus Lanes further inward into the city along the Tuam road, giving buses considerable advantage over cars.

As I've said previously in this thread, once this comes about, the planners will have removed the only advantage that rail currently has - the ability to beat the traffic into the city centre.

Greaney

I've a cousin waiting years for the home she's built & loved for 20 years to be bulldozed for another ring road/outer city bypass. Galway City traffic is brutal! Even the cycling advocates don't want money spent on the ring road but on Galway city cycling infrastructure.

Meanwhile, today on twitter...

I was in Kent Station in Cork last year and when you look at the timetable board you'd be forgiven for thinking they they just sliced The West off the map and let it tumble into the sea.

serfboard

Greaney wrote: »

Even the cycling advocates don't want money spent on the ring road but on Galway city cycling infrastructure.

I can see the headlines now - "Shock as cycling advocates want money spent on cycling infrastructure!".

end of the road

serfboard wrote: »

The only solution, for a decade or more, to Galway's traffic problem was the Galway Outer Bypass, to be followed by public transport initiatives after it. However, since the bypass/ring road will not be built for a decade or more, if ever, the public transport initiatives have been re-prioritised.

So, to inform yourself better, I suggest that you examine the plans for Bus Connects Galway. While it does indeed, plan for widening certain roads to install additional Bus Lanes, what's radical about the new thinking are the plans to remove private cars from certain streets altogether - making them Bus only.

Just outside the city, there are also plans to extend the very successful Claregalway Bus Lanes further inward into the city along the Tuam road, giving buses considerable advantage over cars.

As I've said previously in this thread, once this comes about, the planners will have removed the only advantage that rail currently has - the ability to beat the traffic into the city centre.

accept it won't have remove that or any of the other advantages of rail.
there is no doubt it will be a success and good for bus and potential bus users but it can and will only ever be a part of the solution.
modernisation will be needed in the form of rail.

ezstreet5

Rail service provides a massive utility to a community; why would anyone want to deny that? A bicycle greenway also provides weather-dependent and seasonal utility, and may induce some tourism. But the opportunity costs will never pencil out. No studies should be needed to show that rail transport benefits always prevail. There is a bizarre antipathy toward rail transport in this case that should be squelched. We need to be fighting for our railways, and for better railways, and not attacking them.

[Deleted User]

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Rail service provides a massive utility to a community; why would anyone want to deny that? A bicycle greenway also provides weather-dependent and seasonal utility, and may induce some tourism. But the opportunity costs will never pencil out. No studies should be needed to show that rail transport benefits always prevail. There is a bizarre antipathy toward rail transport in this case that should be squelched. We need to be fighting for our railways, and for better railways, and not attacking them.

Opportunity costs? Can you clarify.

I know along most greenways built so far that have been in any way marketed, that there has been significant gains for the local communities in the form of jobs and visitor spend in accommodation, amenities, shops, pubs and restaurants.

Rail is great, I use it anytime I leave my town, well, that or the bus as I no longer have a car.

As stated previously by numerous people, rail SHOULD be invested in, but that should be smart investment.

WRC phase 1 would never get off the drawing board today and only ever got built because they literally couldn't spend the stamp duty fast enough during the boom.

WRC phase 2 has its place in a rail network, eventually, when the population figures justify it, but until then the case being made for this distracts from the very real need for investment in the other parts of the network here in the West.

ezstreet5

Deleted User wrote: »

Opportunity costs? Can you clarify.

I know along most greenways built so far that have been in any way marketed, that there has been significant gains for the local communities in the form of jobs and visitor spend in accommodation, amenities, shops, pubs and restaurants.

That is a belief of some. But the economic benefits of greenway tourism are notoriously difficult to quantify. Just look at the Sligo Greenway Feasibility Study - not exactly robust science. I'm not discounting the benefits. It's just that the quantification problem can lead to entrenched opinions. It's easy to see a bustling cafe or a bike hire business add a few staff during summer months due to the greenway, and then improperly apply that benefit across the wider local economy.

Pete_Cavan

Del.Monte wrote: »

Because you can't. There are not a couple of dozen rail projects that are realistically under any sort of consideration.

Off the top of my head these are the only ones that I can think of.

1. DART Underground/Metro to Swords.
2. Various Luas extensions.3.

3. Extension of MGWR route to Navan.
4. Midleton/Youghal
5. Charleville/Limerick via Patrickswell.
6. Limerick/Foynes.

7. Mullingar/Athlone.
8. Waterford/Wexford.

Why do you limit "couple of dozen projects that would be ahead of it (WRC) in the queue" to new rail construction? There are multiple packages of work (over and above basic maintenance) on existing rail lines which could be done for the cost of extending WRC which would be more beneficial. This could be works to increase speeds, double-tracking or passing loops to allow overtaking, new stations and P&Rs, etc. Investment on the existing network is usually better value as the maintenance and operating costs are already there, and may even be reduced by the investment.

The public transport budget is very limited, as we all know, you can't just lump together DART and Metrolink as one project on the list to make WRC look closer to the top of it. These are huge multi-year projects which will be eating up significant proportions of the capital budget for a while. The position a project sits at in the list is largely irrelevant when there are decades of projects ahead of it. Project Ireland 2040 just contains some coulds and maybes about WRC extension but dependent on the outcome of the report, the update of it could be even less committal. You can dress up a list of projects to make WRC look someway in contention for funding but in reality, it is not.

For rail to improve here we need to first strengthen the core network to make it as efficient and attractive as possible. Tacking bits on to the periphery does nothing but undermine future rail investments, as seen with WRC1. If we had a strong backbone of competitive intercity services and a reliable commuter network into and around larger urban areas which meant rail was a genuine option for people, then we could start looking at these nice to haves.

In addition to money, I'd also point out engineering capacity. There are only so many rail engineers, project managers, etc. in the country with the required skills to design and deliver major rail projects and yes that includes consultants too.

Massive projects like DART+ will suck up all the available engineers for years to come.

eastwest

ezstreet5 wrote: »

That is a belief of some. But the economic benefits of greenway tourism are notoriously difficult to quantify. Just look at the Sligo Greenway Feasibility Study - not exactly robust science. I'm not discounting the benefits. It's just that the quantification problem can lead to entrenched opinions. It's easy to see a bustling cafe or a bike hire business add a few staff during summer months due to the greenway, and then improperly apply that benefit across the wider local economy.

I'd suggest taking a trip to dungarvan, which was sluggish, to say the least, and to kilmacthomas, which was dead. And maybe take a look at Tubbercurry and Coolaney now, so you can have a baseline against which to measure the changes in five years time.

Isambard

Del.Monte wrote: »

Because you can't. There are not a couple of dozen rail projects that are realistically under any sort of consideration.

Off the top of my head these are the only ones that I can think of.

1. DART Underground/Metro to Swords.
2. Various Luas extensions.3.

3. Extension of MGWR route to Navan.
4. Midleton/Youghal
5. Charleville/Limerick via Patrickswell.
6. Limerick/Foynes.

7. Mullingar/Athlone.
8. Waterford/Wexford.

you added the consideration bit. There are many other projects that could be added to your list and still be ahead of the WRC in cost/benefit terms.

Your list bizarrely includes Mullingar/Athlone and Midleton/ Youghal , both Greenways in the near future.

Being discussed is improvements to suburban rail in Cork and Limerick as an example.

ezstreet5

eastwest wrote: »

I'd suggest taking a trip to dungarvan, which was sluggish, to say the least, and to kilmacthomas, which was dead. And maybe take a look at Tubbercurry and Coolaney now, so you can have a baseline against which to measure the changes in five years time.

The Waterford Greenway is truly stunning, with its viaduct, bridges, tunnel, and view of the sea. If we had those features, I might be a little more optimistic. Perhaps Athlone to Mullingar would be a better comparator. However, from a greenway perspective, the line north of Athenry is plagued with perfectly straight sections - some of which continue for miles without a bend. It only starts to get interesting for a cyclist once you get to Kiltimagh perhaps.

In a former life, I lived adjacent to a 50km+, wholly segregated greenway. I quite literally clocked up thousands of miles cycling on it, and I can say that those long straight sections, with a headwind, were soul-destroying.

Greaney

eastwest wrote: »

I'd suggest taking a trip to dungarvan, which was sluggish, to say the least, and to kilmacthomas, which was dead. And maybe take a look at Tubbercurry and Coolaney now, so you can have a baseline against which to measure the changes in five years time.

Those routes you describe are by water. The top 10 cycle ways in Germany are all by water.

Athenry to Tuam railway line is not

eastwest

Greaney wrote: »

Those routes you describe are by water. The top 10 cycle ways in Germany are all by water.

Athenry to Tuam railway line is not

The Veenbahn isn't, and it's extremely popular. Neither is the Monsal Trail in the UK, and look at how busy that is.
https://www.vennbahn.eu/en/about-the-project/

Greaney

eastwest wrote: »

The Veenbahn isn't, and it's extremely popular. Neither is the Monsal Trail in the UK, and look at how busy that is.
https://www.vennbahn.eu/en/about-the-project/

I didn't say all.... just the top ones

[Deleted User]

There's more than one reason why you see thousands walking & cycling on greenways, regardless of where they are, compared to roads in the same localities.

Have a think about what those reasons are and feel free to post what you think they might be.

eastwest

Greaney wrote: »

I didn't say all.... just the top ones

At over 400,000 annual trips, it's not exactly one of the bottom ones.

westtip

Deleted User wrote: »

There's more than one reason why you see thousands walking & cycling on greenways, regardless of where they are, compared to roads in the same localities.

Have a think about what those reasons are and feel free to post what you think they might be.

Indeed DC a trawl through the archives (OMG how long have we been at this!) would be useful, in March 2007. Yes that is not a typo......14 years ago Failte Ireland published A Strategy for the Development of Irish Cycle Tourism

In the first few pages it said this:

o Cycling on Irish roads is not perceived to be safe – cyclists face dangerous bends, fast cars, intimidating HGVs, more traffic and higher speeds;
o There are very few, if any, traffic-free routes to cater for touring cyclists wanting to leave the cities to discover the countryside or for
families who wish to participate in cycling;
o Airlines and ferry companies do not make iteasy to carry bikes, there is no evidence ofa coherent network, much less one that is linked to a reliable public transport system;
o Compared with other European destinations, the system and facilities in Ireland for the carriage of bikes on trains is poor and cycle parking facilities at many train stations are inadequate;
o The lack of good quality, strategically located, professionally run bicycle and accessory hirefacilities is a key constraint.

Now some of these issues have been worked on but much of it remains the same.

ohographite

There is a reason why I still don't think that reopening the section of railway between Ennis and Athenry was a waste of money.
The reason is that it has been used for a similar number of passenger kilometres to the number of passenger kilometres that the Dublin Metrolink is expected to be used for if reopened, relative to the amount of money it cost to reopen.

I might not have explained that very well, but I will show how many passenger kilometres both railway investments(Metrolink & Ennis-Athenry) would carry in a day, relative to the money needed to introduce them.

The section of railway between Ennis and Athenry was used for 159, 829 journeys in 2019, which works out as 440 journeys a day.
My guess is the average length of a journey made on it is 80km, as most journeys on it probably make use of both the Ennis-Athenry section and railways which were already open, like Limerick-Ennis or Athenry-Galway, and these journeys probably wouldn't have been made on any railway at all without Ennis-Athenry reopening.
440 journeys a day, with 80km as the average length of the journey, makes 32, 000 passenger km a day on the Ennis-Athenry section in 2019.
It cost 106 million euro to reopen, for 32, 000 passenger km a day, so that works out as 30, 188 passenger km a day per 100 million euro spent on it.

The Dublin Metrolink, if built, is expected to be used for 100, 000 journeys a day. My guess is that the average length of a journey which would be made on it is 10km.
So if that estimate is correct, it would be used for 1 million passenger km a day.
It would cost 3 billion euro to reopen, for 1 million passenger km a day, so that works out as 33, 333 passenger km a day per 100 million euro spent on it.

The Dublin Metrolink would still be used for more passenger km than Ennis-Athenry relative to the money spent on it, but not by enough of a difference to make Dublin Metrolink a good investment and also make Ennis-Athenry an inherently crazy investment.

goingnowhere

But metrolink will return a surplus just like Luas. It will not need ongoing operating subsidies

Sam Russell

[Passenger Km] is not a recognised metric for investment.

A lot of dubious statistics in your post, along with plenty of suppositions that are unfounded in any reality. Most of the statistics coming from that line are of dubious merit, where passengers are counted from Ennis to Galway even if they alight at Oranmore for Galway.

The line does not make any positive contribution to its running cost. 220 passengers each way each day. Three full coaches each way from Ennis to Athenry would carry that many passengers at significant lower cost.

[Deleted User]

ohographite wrote: »

There is a reason why I still don't think that reopening the section of railway between Ennis and Athenry was a waste of money.
The reason is that it has been used for a similar number of passenger kilometres to the number of passenger kilometres that the Dublin Metrolink is expected to be used for if reopened, relative to the amount of money it cost to reopen.

I might not have explained that very well, but I will show how many passenger kilometres both railway investments(Metrolink & Ennis-Athenry) would carry in a day, relative to the money needed to introduce them.

The section of railway between Ennis and Athenry was used for 159, 829 journeys in 2019, which works out as 440 journeys a day.
My guess is the average length of a journey made on it is 80km, as most journeys on it probably make use of both the Ennis-Athenry section and railways which were already open, like Limerick-Ennis or Athenry-Galway, and these journeys probably wouldn't have been made on any railway at all without Ennis-Athenry reopening.
440 journeys a day, with 80km as the average length of the journey, makes 32, 000 passenger km a day on the Ennis-Athenry section in 2019.
It cost 106 million euro to reopen, for 32, 000 passenger km a day, so that works out as 30, 188 passenger km a day per 100 million euro spent on it.

The Dublin Metrolink, if built, is expected to be used for 100, 000 journeys a day. My guess is that the average length of a journey which would be made on it is 10km.
So if that estimate is correct, it would be used for 1 million passenger km a day.
It would cost 3 billion euro to reopen, for 1 million passenger km a day, so that works out as 33, 333 passenger km a day per 100 million euro spent on it.

The Dublin Metrolink would still be used for more passenger km than Ennis-Athenry relative to the money spent on it, but not by enough of a difference to make Dublin Metrolink a good investment and also make Ennis-Athenry an inherently crazy investment.

Your arguments didn't stand up to scrutiny in the Wex/Waterford thread and they won't here either

end of the road

Sam Russell wrote: »

[Passenger Km] is not a recognised metric for investment.

A lot of dubious statistics in your post, along with plenty of suppositions that are unfounded in any reality. Most of the statistics coming from that line are of dubious merit, where passengers are counted from Ennis to Galway even if they alight at Oranmore for Galway.

The line does not make any positive contribution to its running cost. 220 passengers each way each day. Three full coaches each way from Ennis to Athenry would carry that many passengers at significant lower cost.

only if you discount the infrastructure cost of those coaches. said infrastructure being more expensive.
not to mention that we have had reports of full trains on the line, some here and a lot on other areas of the web, for which 3 coaches could in no way take that capacity.

Deleted User wrote: »

Your arguments didn't stand up to scrutiny in the Wex/Waterford thread and they won't here either

they did but you simply don't agree with them, which is a different thing.

Sam Russell

end of the road wrote: »

no as the infrastructure cost of those coaches has to be taken into account, said infrastructure being more expensive.
we have had a number of reports either on here or other places of full trains on the line, which 3 coaches certainly would not provide such capacity.

The M18 is built.

When were the trains full, and how often does it occur?

end of the road

Sam Russell wrote: »

The M18 is built.

When were the trains full, and how often does it occur?

the ennis athenry line is also rebuilt.
from what i gather full trains was a regular thing before covid, but perhapse those on here who have reported it will fill in the exact details when they can.