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How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

Tokyo

Mod:

Continuation of the How long before Irish reunification? thread.

Please note that all mod warnings, actions and threadbans from the previous thread carry across to here.

I have updated the OP of this thread with a list of threadbanned users, I would advise posters to check on this before posting in the thread again or a forum sanction will be imposed for breaching same.

If you want to discuss your threadban feel free to PM the banning mod (or myself if you can't remember who that is and I'll point you in the right direction).

Threadbanned Users:
blanch152
Randy Archer
Natterjack from Kerry
littlevillage

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Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

you can't have it both ways - if what you say that it is a logistical problem, then there is no way Scotland can leave the UK and join the EU

That is just plain idiotic Downcow, as you well know.

Exhibit A) The island of Ireland, with a history of issues regarding a land border and a huge number of crossings due to the historic non-existence of that border, has two options with regards to this. Option 1 is a land border, option 2 is a sea border. Both are possible, but the land border would be more difficult to enforce and logistically more challenging (note it says more difficult, not impossible).

Exhibit

Scotland also has a history of issues along it's land border, but fortunately they are not in living memory, and so it isn't particularly politically charged. It also has far fewer crossings and a great deal of natural features making this border easier to manage from an infrastructure perspective. While challenging, as any land border is, there is no alternative sea border option available to Scotland, and as such should Scotland seek independence and membership of the EU, a land border would be the only option.

Quite how you've managed to go from your government coming to an agreement with the EU, and choosing the option they felt would be best (the sea border), and an acknowledgement that a sea border offers less logistic issues than a land border.... to we should deny Scotland's right to self determination is puzzling to say the least. The threads holding your bizarre logic together are frayed to snapping point, Downcow. It is verging on a complete non-sequitur.

maccored

jh79 wrote: »

From memory, O'Dowall was involved in criminality. Driver for Gerry Hutch too so was operating at a very high level within that drugs gang.

Aengus O Snodaigh and the spy ring would be another example.

Then you have their links to criminals such as "Slab" and "Goldfinger" (still welcome at SF xmas parties as a plus one for Conor Murphy).

Not saying it is related....

But here it won’t be forgotten that, in 1999, months after Murphy lost the case, one of the men who gave evidence against him, Eamon Collins, himself a former IRA man, was bludgeoned to death.

I believe Collins had a metal spike hammered into his face!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/gerry-adams-had-little-choice-but-to-stand-by-slab-murphy-1.2473143

Derry SF pretending to all be in the jacks when Jock and his gang disemboweled McCartney

Donaldson spy ring

If you have proof anyone in SF is involved in criminality, off you toddle to the appropriate authorities. In fact, feel free to post the info here as well - otherwise what is the point of your last post? Besides past tense info and dubious claims that is.

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It'll be good when the other parties have to properly compete with SF for ownership of the United Ireland cause, which they will eventually. Then the paritionists/crypto-unionists in the south will have to properly align with the DUP/UUP/UVF - it will be hilarious.

It will be epic, no doubting that.

BonnieSituation

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It'll be good when the other parties have to properly compete with SF for ownership of the United Ireland cause, which they will eventually. Then the paritionists/crypto-unionists in the south will have to properly align with the DUP/UPP/UVF - it will be hilarious.

The pin-dancing and flip-flopping must be causing them some serious physiological discomfort at this point.

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

But "British" SF were of concern to you yesterday?

Pick a lane son.

:D True.

BonnieSituation

jh79 wrote: »

As a voter in the Republic the DUP are of no concern to me.

But "British" SF were of concern to you yesterday?

Pick a lane son.

Junkyard Tom

It'll be good when the other parties have to properly compete with SF for ownership of the United Ireland cause, which they will eventually. Then the paritionists/crypto-unionists in the south will have to properly align with the DUP/UUP/UVF - it will be hilarious.

[Deleted User]

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Show us your DUP list when you get a chance.

Surprised you didn't try some balance in that post as you're always so insistent on it when Unionism is criticised.

As a voter in the Republic the DUP are of no concern to me.

[Deleted User]

downcow wrote: »

This is a great wee read, dispelling some nonsense about the great Irish economy
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/opinion/columnists/economist-the-republic-of-ireland-is-not-as-is-often-claimed-one-of-the-worlds-richest-economies-3145974

That's a very defensive article, in all fairness anyone who spends a bit of time north and south knows the south is more prosperous. That's not getting at the north, there are other countries more prosperous than Ireland too. But why do unionists care enough to argue silly points that even if they were true, are only relevant to an area they say they don't care about?
There are legitimate criticisms you could make about the southern economy, it's prone to boom/bust for example, but trying to compare it negatively with the north isn't sensible.

BonnieSituation

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

The unionists are very disillusioned about the sea border, even though it definitely won't end partition. They seem to be constantly upset these days, I suspect leadership hasn't been there to tell them that things have changed since the Good Friday Agreement, and the likes of the TUV keep making it difficult to engage with Catholics. If they don't start soon they're definitely going to lose a border poll. The Brexit referendum was a good chance for them, they could have campaigned for remain and built some common cause. With no chance of becoming a huge majority again in the North, surely they'd be better to agree a united Ireland, which could fairly quickly become a less tense and divided society. Keep going with the marches and bands and stuff, but give up the constitutional quest, which is doomed anyway.

You haven't been paying attention for the last century!

Unionism is never happy. It must be exhausting.

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Show us your DUP list when you get a chance.

Surprised you didn't try some balance in that post as you're always so insistent on it when Unionism is criticised.

You could link quite a few parties to criminality in the same way.

BonnieSituation

jh79 wrote: »

From memory, O'Dowall was involved in criminality. Driver for Gerry Hutch too so was operating at a very high level within that drugs gang.

Aengus O Snodaigh and the spy ring would be another example.

Then you have their links to criminals such as "Slab" and "Goldfinger" (still welcome at SF xmas parties as a plus one for Conor Murphy).

Not saying it is related....

But here it won’t be forgotten that, in 1999, months after Murphy lost the case, one of the men who gave evidence against him, Eamon Collins, himself a former IRA man, was bludgeoned to death.

I believe Collins had a metal spike hammered into his face!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/gerry-adams-had-little-choice-but-to-stand-by-slab-murphy-1.2473143

Derry SF pretending to all be in the jacks when Jock and his gang disemboweled McCartney

Donaldson spy ring

Show us your DUP list when you get a chance.

Surprised you didn't try some balance in that post as you're always so insistent on it when Unionism is criticised.

[Deleted User]

The unionists are very disillusioned about the sea border, even though it definitely won't end partition. They seem to be constantly upset these days, I suspect leadership hasn't been there to tell them that things have changed since the Good Friday Agreement, and the likes of the TUV keep making it difficult to engage with Catholics. If they don't start soon they're definitely going to lose a border poll. The Brexit referendum was a good chance for them, they could have campaigned for remain and built some common cause. With no chance of becoming a huge majority again in the North, surely they'd be better to agree a united Ireland, which could fairly quickly become a less tense and divided society. Keep going with the marches and bands and stuff, but give up the constitutional quest, which is doomed anyway.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

These were all voted for in your Parliament, and therefore democratic by your measure

The choice was 'immediate and terrible war' or partition and it literally caused a civil war in Ireland.

It doesn't surprise me that you consider that 'democracy'.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

This is a great wee read, dispelling some nonsense about the great Irish economy
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/opinion/columnists/economist-the-republic-of-ireland-is-not-as-is-often-claimed-one-of-the-worlds-richest-economies-3145974

Well known Brexiteer, former advisor to David Trimble, anti Scottish Independence, member of The Policy Exchange, the Tory Think Tank writes an article dissing the Irish economy....yawn.

downcow

This is a great wee read, dispelling some nonsense about the great Irish economy
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/opinion/columnists/economist-the-republic-of-ireland-is-not-as-is-often-claimed-one-of-the-worlds-richest-economies-3145974

[Deleted User]

maccored wrote: »

You dont know everyone in SF either so how can you say they are?

From memory, O'Dowall was involved in criminality. Driver for Gerry Hutch too so was operating at a very high level within that drugs gang.

Aengus O Snodaigh and the spy ring would be another example.

Then you have their links to criminals such as "Slab" and "Goldfinger" (still welcome at SF xmas parties as a plus one for Conor Murphy).

Not saying it is related....

But here it won’t be forgotten that, in 1999, months after Murphy lost the case, one of the men who gave evidence against him, Eamon Collins, himself a former IRA man, was bludgeoned to death.

I believe Collins had a metal spike hammered into his face!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/gerry-adams-had-little-choice-but-to-stand-by-slab-murphy-1.2473143

Derry SF pretending to all be in the jacks when Jock and his gang disemboweled McCartney

Donaldson spy ring

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It is democratic it was voted for in the House of Commons and passed.

The reason this is an issue at all is because the north is not Britain and is not on the same footing as GB. The British government must consider both traditions in the north and that is precisely what has, albiet with encouragement, happened.

Unionists have always had an à la carte relationship with democracy in their little ethno-statelet (its creation against the will of the Irish people, gerrymandering, one-man-one vote, sinking the Sunningdale Agreement, opposition to the GFA, opposing Language rights, marriage equality, abortion, Brexit and so on).

Time for big boy trousers.

I am quite prepared to accept that it is democratic, if you apply your measure to Ireland leaving the UK and the subsequent partition of Ireland. These were all voted for in your Parliament, and therefore democratic by your measure

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Putting the logistics aside, putting the silly Goodies and Baddies approach aside....even if we accept that the threat of violence is the primary reason the sea border makes sense (it isn't, basical logistics is, but let's go along with the silly premise), which border infrastructure would be easier for a terrorist to interfere with?

That's ignoring the fact that the existence of a sea border is more democratic than the proposed land border, the fact that it would be infinitely more complex and expensive to control.....and that it is essentially logistically unmanageable to have several hundred crossing points versus a handful.

Regardless of one's politics, one of those borders is a lot more natural and inherently easier to enfore for managing Britain's choice to leave the EU.....but aye, let's blame that on the RA and all.....sure everyone knows Brexit was a Republican plot...

you can't have it both ways - if what you say that it is a logistical problem, then there is no way Scotland can leave the UK and join the EU

downcow

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

You can't have it both ways.

In my view the cold hard truth is you accept the possibility of some thuggery with an Irish sea border.

Or you accept a greater magnitude of trouble with a land border.

Britain chose the former.

Both are repulsive - but one is less than the other.

That is called 'the greater threat'. Very bad training for loyalists paramilitaries looking on

maccored

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Possibly a technically true statement. But firstly, you dont know everyone in SF. And secondly, would you also say that of those you do know is SF, while not involved in criminality, they have also not been involved in criminality in the past ? Or have they ?

You dont know everyone in SF either so how can you say they are?

FrancieBrady

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Along with an assurance that Britain would indeed fully implement the NI protocol, and the NI protocol would be part of any future trade deals the UK make.

He sure showed them!

I honestly cannot figure out Rob on this one. And he is being less than forthcoming on what he means. He is trying to paint this as a victory when it is yet another example of the British folding a tent and going home.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

Interesting post amongst the multitude of UK bad Ireland good usual stuff.
Constantly playing the victim will work to a point.The ira learned this when they had to disband and decommission when ordered to by the US.
Affection for one's ancestral origins do go a long way although generally,imo Ireland's and the UK's interests don't clash so the US doesn't have to make any major choices between the two.
,This is probably the first time I've seen anyone of a republican disposition acknowledge the atrocities committed by the ira which resulted in the original bloody sunday.

You will really go out if your way to condone the murder of children at a football match by the State won't you?

Fionn1952

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What 'happened' this time Rob? Gove sent home with his tail between his legs, from what I can see.

Along with an assurance that Britain would indeed fully implement the NI protocol, and the NI protocol would be part of any future trade deals the UK make.

He sure showed them!

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

All well and good Tom but a bit of graffiti on a wall and brussels and co are reaching for their Billy Connelly incontinence pants.Whats going to happen if something like that happens again?

What 'happened' this time Rob? Gove sent home with his tail between his legs, from what I can see.

RobMc59

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It is democratic it was voted for in the House of Commons and passed.

The reason this is an issue at all is because the north is not Britain and is not on the same footing as GB. The British government must consider both traditions in the north and that is precisely what has, albiet with encouragement, happened.

Unionists have always had an à la carte relationship with democracy in their little ethno-statelet (its creation against the will of the Irish people, gerrymandering, one-man-one vote, sinking the Sunningdale Agreement, opposition to the GFA, opposing Language rights, marriage equality, abortion, Brexit and so on).

Time for big boy trousers.

All well and good Tom but a bit of graffiti on a wall and brussels and co are reaching for their Billy Connelly incontinence pants.Whats going to happen if something like that happens again?

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It is democratic it was voted for in the House of Commons and passed.

The reason this is an issue at all is because the north is not Britain and is not on the same footing as GB. The British government must consider both traditions in the north and that is precisely what has, albiet with encouragement, happened.

Unionists have always had an à la carte relationship with democracy in their little ethno-statelet (its creation against the will of the Irish people, gerrymandering, one-man-one vote, sinking the Sunningdale Agreement, opposition to the GFA, opposing Language rights, marriage equality, abortion, Brexit and so on).

Time for big boy trousers.

Of course it was democratic. I don't think some Unionists understand what a democracy is. This is a situation like they will find themselves in if a majority vote for a UI - I.E. go with the majority vote without being the slightest bit 'un-peaceful'.

Brexit was decided on in the exact same way and they spent 4 years ramming it down peoples throats that the UK as whole decided on Brexit. Well, the UK also decided on the Brexit deal too.

teabag1993

RobMc59 wrote: »

Interesting post amongst the multitude of UK bad Ireland good usual stuff.
Constantly playing the victim will work to a point.The ira learned this when they had to disband and decommission when ordered to by the US.
Affection for one's ancestral origins do go a long way although generally,imo Ireland's and the UK's interests don't clash so the US doesn't have to make any major choices between the two.
This is probably the first time I've seen anyone of a republican disposition acknowledge the atrocities committed by the ira which resulted in the original bloody sunday.

My great-great uncle (I think that's right) was one of the spies working for the British who was killed by Michael Collins' Squad on that day. Alternatively, I also have ancestors who fought for independence, so there's only a little bit of turncoat blood in me.

But, I digress.

RobMc59

jm08 wrote: »

I think you will find that Ireland always wins the PR war when it comes to Britain. Michael Portillo made a documentary called ''Hawks & Doves'' which dealt with Irish independence from the British point of view. One of the things he said that really pissed off Lloyd George and Churchill around that time is how no matter what atrocity the IRA committed (such as the assissinations of British spies which resulted in the first Bloody Sunday) that Britain always got the blame and the US in particular was always on Ireland's side.

edit: Bearing in mind that 20 of the US Presidents who were of Irish descent were actually Ulster-Scots.

Interesting post amongst the multitude of UK bad Ireland good usual stuff.
Constantly playing the victim will work to a point.The ira learned this when they had to disband and decommission when ordered to by the US.
Affection for one's ancestral origins do go a long way although generally,imo Ireland's and the UK's interests don't clash so the US doesn't have to make any major choices between the two.
This is probably the first time I've seen anyone of a republican disposition acknowledge the atrocities committed by the ira which resulted in the original bloody sunday.

Junkyard Tom

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

An Irish Sea Border is undemocratic. It was never voted on.

It is democratic it was voted for in the House of Commons and passed.

The reason this is an issue at all is because the north is not Britain and is not on the same footing as GB. The British government must consider both traditions in the north and that is precisely what has, albiet with encouragement, happened.

Unionists have always had an à la carte relationship with democracy in their little ethno-statelet (its creation against the will of the Irish people, gerrymandering, one-man-one vote, sinking the Sunningdale Agreement, opposition to the GFA, opposing Language rights, marriage equality, abortion, Brexit and so on).

Time for big boy trousers.