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Child Item

Norma Foley has to go [MOD WARNING IN 1ST POST]

Smacruairi

After yet another few days of leaks about the reopening of schools, it transpires that she again hadn't informed her cabinet colleagues.

Why has she not been replaced? Has there ever been a minister who has been repeatedly making a bags of this and lasted this long? Like the dept of health is bad, but this is on another level it seems, particularly around communication. Do FF realise that their most public ministers are Donnelly and Foley, who surely have approvement ratings in the single digits, while FG have paschal and Coveney who are quietly keeping things moving along?

Is there a plan, even a political one?!

Mod: We're not going to have another iteration of the "Schools closed thread', with teacher bashing and histrionics couched as 'opinion'. Any posting that strays into that territory will be met with a card and immediate threadban.

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ArrBee

keoclassic wrote: »

In all fairness, one thing that last years predicted grades proved was that teachers en masse cannot be trusted to impartially grade students. Hence the rise in points for many courses. There was no quality control last year!! Their was a ranking and an adjusting to try keep grades in line with previous year's....... And it was a disaster. Students were nothing more than a number in an algorithm.

I'm never one to subscribe to the "we tried it once and it didn't work, therefore the idea can never work" way of thinking.
Surely everyone can acknowledge that what was attempted last year is iteration #1 dreamed up in exceptional times. Iteration #2, 3, 4 don't have to be the same.
If proper thought is applied, I'm sure it could work just fine.

That doesn't address the foot dragging that has occurred to date though.
A good solution is unlikely to be available this year from what I've seen of the way things are done.

The whole argument feels more like one side can see that something needs to change. and the other side wants nothing to change.
Whatever the true reason for resisting change is, it is seldom the reason given in media. Those are reasons solely designed to generate the best protection to ones position.

Also, I do find it odd that it is the teacher unions that are driving education policy in this country.
I would have thought that the government would be better suited to that and leave the teachers/union to discuss the working conditions aspects.
If my boss said to me that they were changing the way work was done so that, lets say, document reviews were no longer going to be outsourced and that I would have to do them, I wouldn't be in a position to tell them "no, you can't do that" even if I thought it might lead to a difference in output quality or an extra burden on myself.
I would certainly put forward concerns including negotiating around the impact to my workload.

[Deleted User]

blanch152 wrote: »

At third-level, members of the same union - the TUI - mark their own students. They do it in Further education as well, many of which qualifications are equivalent to the Leaving Certificate being Level 5 on the NQF.

I'd have a problem with TUI members marking anything having seen their antics in recent weeks relating to this https://www.lmfm.ie/news/lmfm-news/union-to-escalate-dispute-as-dkit-management-refuses-talks/

blanch152

happyoutscan wrote: »

The students at 3rd level are adults. Different expectations and all that.

What is really strange is that at third-level the lecturers correct all the students work without a problem, yet when we have a hint of calculated grading at second-level, we need a law so that we can send to prison an under-pressure over-stressed 17-year old who asks his teacher what mark he is going to get under predicted grading.

Banana Republic 1

keoclassic wrote: »

You are way off the mark if you are saying that teachers marking their own students will highlight flaws! The teachers you are talking about are the very ones who will grade inflate to look good! It's the honest ones who will bear the brunt of a non impartial system.

Those who grade inflate can be identified by the system itself if that happens. The honest good teachers are getting the flak from the actions of the minority now.

markodaly

Dempo1 wrote: »

Colm O Rourke letting RIP on radio 1 right now, his first observation (albeit mentioned before), it all went pear shaped when students were allowed to get involved in this fiasco

Yea, the students, how dare they get involved.... sure what are the schools for after all.

markodaly

happyoutscan wrote: »

The students at 3rd level are adults. Different expectations and all that.

Are the students marking their own papers? No, so why does it matter how old students are? It is the teachers marking the papers, not students.

OEP

ArrBee wrote: »

I'm never one to subscribe to the "we tried it once and it didn't work, therefore the idea can never work" way of thinking.
Surely everyone can acknowledge that what was attempted last year is iteration #1 dreamed up in exceptional times. Iteration #2, 3, 4 don't have to be the same.
If proper thought is applied, I'm sure it could work just fine.

That doesn't address the foot dragging that has occurred to date though.
A good solution is unlikely to be available this year from what I've seen of the way things are done.

The whole argument feels more like one side can see that something needs to change. and the other side wants nothing to change.
Whatever the true reason for resisting change is, it is seldom the reason given in media. Those are reasons solely designed to generate the best protection to ones position.

They raise legitimate concerns about how the predicted grades will be calculated. Last year they had lots of data, this year none. You can't build a model to predict grades with no data

timmyntc

blanch152 wrote: »

What is really strange is that at third-level the lecturers correct all the students work without a problem, yet when we have a hint of calculated grading at second-level, we need a law so that we can send to prison an under-pressure over-stressed 17-year old who asks his teacher what mark he is going to get under predicted grading.

Disingenuous comparison.

In university you are competing for grades against all other students in your class/year. You all sit the same tests, do the same assignments, and are graded by the same person(s).

In the Leaving Cert, you are competing for points against all other Leaving Cert students in the country. You all have different schools, different class assignments, different class tests, and will have your work corrected by different teachers.

One teacher could give easy marks and another could mark hard, and the result is that one student loses out on a university place. It's not a level playing field because there are so many variables - at least a state exam is the same across the board for everyone, same questions, same marking schemes etc.

shesty

Also universities employ external people to randomly check results. They have Board meetings to review results yearly. They regularly orally interview candidates who are borderline between grades to see should they move up or stay as is after the exam. In addition, the relationship between lecturers and students is often a lot more distant than between teachers and Leaving Cert students.

That is not being considered for inclusion here.

timmyntc

If the Department had any ambition they would run the exams - most schools would have the extra free classrooms in June to facilitate enough social distancing between students taking written exams.

For those who cant attend due to covid or self-isolation, a 2nd sitting of exams is organised in ~August.
You can't sit any exam twice (June & August), but can do some in first sittings and some in second if you fell ill or had to isolate midway through.

The piecemeal calculated grades system is a let-down for students, is totally open to litigation (it is an unfair system - the lack of standardised tests or assessment for all subjects makes it impossible to do fairly). Foley & the Department have shown themselves totally incompetent.

...Ghost...

Donald Trump wrote: »

That's a weird one to be complaining about. That was an anomaly. Maternity leave is leave that a woman gets when having a child. It is just a timeframe that an employer has to give leave to a woman and for there to be no repercussions. Plenty of employers don't pay the woman wages when she is on it. If they do, there are usually conditions attached.

Should it be increased? Different debate. Should teachers be allowed to "save up" days that they wouldn't have been working anyway? No. Of course not. That's a complete misunderstanding of what it is.

I'm not clued into all the details, but have a general understanding of it.

Two points here.

1) The gov changed maternity leave for teachers during the recession which gives them less time off. OK, fine, not too bad but a loss none the less to what was there before.

2) A Teacher starting their maternity leave in September will have months more school time off than a Teacher starting their leave in May.

Parents obviously would want to maximise the time spent with their newborn, so now it makes more sense to plan a due date to allow you to end maternity leave when summer holidays begin, so they have the full summer too, which they would have had before the changes were made.

The only anomaly was that somehow Teachers made a few more euro per month when on maternity leave. I think it was a tax and pension contribution thing...was only about €20 per month, but an increase in any case.

Going a bit OT though.

blanch152

timmyntc wrote: »

Disingenuous comparison.

In university you are competing for grades against all other students in your class/year. You all sit the same tests, do the same assignments, and are graded by the same person(s).

In the Leaving Cert, you are competing for points against all other Leaving Cert students in the country. You all have different schools, different class assignments, different class tests, and will have your work corrected by different teachers.

One teacher could give easy marks and another could mark hard, and the result is that one student loses out on a university place. It's not a level playing field because there are so many variables - at least a state exam is the same across the board for everyone, same questions, same marking schemes etc.

None of that is a justification for criminalising students who ask how they are getting on and what mark they are likely to get.

timmyntc

blanch152 wrote: »

None of that is a justification for criminalising students who ask how they are getting on and what mark they are likely to get.

It's not intended to be. It is an explanation of why we cannot use comparisons to 3rd level education because the situation is fundamentally different - any attempt to compare 3rd level education and this frankenstein non-standardised calculated grades system is disingenuous at best.

[Deleted User]

Couldn't be any more accurate.

https://twitter.com/BigDirtyFry/status/1362157084998041605

blanch152

timmyntc wrote: »

It's not intended to be. It is an explanation of why we cannot use comparisons to 3rd level education because the situation is fundamentally different - any attempt to compare 3rd level education and this frankenstein non-standardised calculated grades system is disingenuous at best.

Calculated grades systems otherwise known as continuous assessment corrected by their own teachers works right across the EU, but it can't work in Ireland because of the teacher unions.

History Queen

blanch152 wrote: »

Calculated grades systems otherwise known as continuous assessment corrected by their own teachers works right across the EU, but it can't work in Ireland because of the teacher unions.

Calculated grades and continuous assessment are not the same thing. Would you mind listing a couple of the countries that use continuous assessment successfully for assessing final year grades? I'd like to have a read about what they do.

blanch152

History Queen wrote: »

Calculated grades and continuous assessment are not the same thing. Would you mind listing a couple of the countries that use continuous assessment successfully for assessing final year grades? I'd like to have a read about what they do.

Most European countries use some form of continuous assessment.

The value to the student is that the terminal exam really only constitutes an external valuation and independent confirmation of the results that they achieved to date in continuous assessment.

For example, if you are going into a Leaving Cert exam with a solid H2 continuous assessment, the pressure is much less on the student.

Too often in this debate are the mental health pressures on students forgotten. The pressures on the teachers (who are adults) are given much more prominence that the pressures on the students (who are children).

Look at the way we are criminalising a child who asks their teacher (an adult) what they are likely to get, yet we are indemnifying an adult teacher who may vindictively mark down a child student. Getting things the wrong way round.

timmyntc

blanch152 wrote: »

Calculated grades systems otherwise known as continuous assessment corrected by their own teachers works right across the EU, but it can't work in Ireland because of the teacher unions.

Deliberately obtuse?

Continuous assessment works across the EU because the assessments are standardised - what the Dept of Education are trying to push right now is not standardised. It means that there is no agreed upon tests, or assignments, or marking schemes for the work the children have done to date.

It can't work because its fundamentally unfair.

In future it could work, if there were agreed upon, standard assignments & tests to be done through the 2 year Leaving cert cycle. Alas, right now there is not.

lawrencesummers

blanch152 wrote: »

Calculated grades systems otherwise known as continuous assessment corrected by their own teachers works right across the EU, but it can't work in Ireland because of the teacher unions.

They also drive on the right hand side of the road and eat streaky bacon.

James Brown

The bus/Luas drivers and their unions fault, the HSE unions fault, the homeless' own fault, the Irish water protesting publics fault, the nurses taking too many holidays or frontline students looking for fair pay fault, NPHET's fault, the teachers, their union's fault...

What's that saying about if you find yourself in a room full of arseholes?

...Ghost...

lawrencesummers wrote: »

They also drive on the right hand side of the road and eat streaky bacon.

Yum. I just had a streaky bacon and cheddar cheese melt for late lunch. Delish.

ArrBee

OEP wrote: »

They raise legitimate concerns about how the predicted grades will be calculated. Last year they had lots of data, this year none. You can't build a model to predict grades with no data

I was more talking about reform in the context of continuous assessment.

Calculated grades are a retro fit after the fact and I am guessing it's only on the table as part of covid.
But since you mention it, I thought schools were still operational the last year so data is somewhat available, no?

History Queen

blanch152 wrote: »

Most European countries use some form of continuous assessment.

The value to the student is that the terminal exam really only constitutes an external valuation and independent confirmation of the results that they achieved to date in continuous assessment.

For example, if you are going into a Leaving Cert exam with a solid H2 continuous assessment, the pressure is much less on the student.

Too often in this debate are the mental health pressures on students forgotten. The pressures on the teachers (who are adults) are given much more prominence that the pressures on the students (who are children).

Look at the way we are criminalising a child who asks their teacher (an adult) what they are likely to get, yet we are indemnifying an adult teacher who may vindictively mark down a child student. Getting things the wrong way round.

Can you give me an example of a specific system we could use here?

OEP

ArrBee wrote: »

I was more talking about reform in the context of continuous assessment.

Calculated grades are a retro fit after the fact and I am guessing it's only on the table as part of covid.
But since you mention it, I thought schools were still operational the last year so data is somewhat available, no?

What data? No summer tests last year, no Christmas tests this year, no mocks.

blanch152

History Queen wrote: »

Can you give me an example of a specific system we could use here?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40076195.html

"The UN Committee on the Rights of the Child has asked Ireland to outline the measures it has taken to mitigate the adverse effects of the Covid-19 pandemic and about state efforts to reform the Leaving Certificate "with a view to reducing the stress caused to children""

It is not just me who believes that reform is needed.

http://www.localise.ie/blog/rethinking-leaving-cert-%E2%80%93-role-youth-volunteerism

"In January 2019 the NAPD published a Report on Leaving Cert Reform, in it they report that 78% of students, 52% of parents and 60% of educators do not believe that the Leaving Cert adequately prepares them for third level education. Furthermore, 93% of students, 76% of parents and 71% of educators do not believe it prepares them for working life. Proof, as if proof were needed, that change is needed."

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/leaving-cert-students-may-be-assessed-over-two-years-1.3839530

"Leaving Cert students should be assessed on a staggered basis over two years instead of facing a single set of summer exams, according to groups consulted as part of an official review of the senior cycle."

The mental health issues arising in children from the current situation are immense. These latest proposals do little to relieve it.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40076195.html

"The UN Committee on the Rights of the Child has asked Ireland to outline the measures it has taken to mitigate the adverse effects of the Covid-19 pandemic and about state efforts to reform the Leaving Certificate "with a view to reducing the stress caused to children""

It is not just me who believes that reform is needed.

http://www.localise.ie/blog/rethinking-leaving-cert-%E2%80%93-role-youth-volunteerism

"In January 2019 the NAPD published a Report on Leaving Cert Reform, in it they report that 78% of students, 52% of parents and 60% of educators do not believe that the Leaving Cert adequately prepares them for third level education. Furthermore, 93% of students, 76% of parents and 71% of educators do not believe it prepares them for working life. Proof, as if proof were needed, that change is needed."

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/leaving-cert-students-may-be-assessed-over-two-years-1.3839530

"Leaving Cert students should be assessed on a staggered basis over two years instead of facing a single set of summer exams, according to groups consulted as part of an official review of the senior cycle."

The mental health issues arising in children from the current situation are immense. These latest proposals do little to relieve it.

Great progress. Well done.
It gives my heart joy to see you taking what the UN says on board, finally.

You wouldn't acknowledge or accept their findings on homeless children, vulture funds effects on the housing market etc.

It wouldn't be only because it suits your agenda now?

ArrBee

OEP wrote: »

What data? No summer tests last year, no Christmas tests this year, no mocks.

Fair enough.
If those are required to calculate a grade, I can see the problem.
Seems easy enough to overcome it if planning for this situation happens and doesn't meet immovable opposition.

Gatling

Suggestion to open schools next month with junior and senior enfants taking priority along with first and second classes ( communion years )
Never mind those who have to prepare for secondary having missed a fair Chunk of last year

History Queen

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40076195.html

"The UN Committee on the Rights of the Child has asked Ireland to outline the measures it has taken to mitigate the adverse effects of the Covid-19 pandemic and about state efforts to reform the Leaving Certificate "with a view to reducing the stress caused to children""

It is not just me who believes that reform is needed.

http://www.localise.ie/blog/rethinking-leaving-cert-%E2%80%93-role-youth-volunteerism

"In January 2019 the NAPD published a Report on Leaving Cert Reform, in it they report that 78% of students, 52% of parents and 60% of educators do not believe that the Leaving Cert adequately prepares them for third level education. Furthermore, 93% of students, 76% of parents and 71% of educators do not believe it prepares them for working life. Proof, as if proof were needed, that change is needed."

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/leaving-cert-students-may-be-assessed-over-two-years-1.3839530

"Leaving Cert students should be assessed on a staggered basis over two years instead of facing a single set of summer exams, according to groups consulted as part of an official review of the senior cycle."

The mental health issues arising in children from the current situation are immense. These latest proposals do little to relieve it.

Did you read what I said at all? I asked for an example so I could read up and inform myself about the countries across Europe that you think are doing a good job? I'm not against leaving cert reform at all. If you read my earlier posts on this thread I spoke about being at meetings about the reform.

Stewie Griffin

History Queen wrote: »

Did you read what I said at all? I asked for an example so I could read up and inform myself about the countries across Europe that you think are doing a good job? I'm not against leaving cert reform at all. If you read my earlier posts on this thread I spoke about being at meetings about the reform.

Some might say that answering a completely different question to what was asked reminds one of a certain minister.......