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Child Item

Norma Foley has to go [MOD WARNING IN 1ST POST]

Smacruairi

After yet another few days of leaks about the reopening of schools, it transpires that she again hadn't informed her cabinet colleagues.

Why has she not been replaced? Has there ever been a minister who has been repeatedly making a bags of this and lasted this long? Like the dept of health is bad, but this is on another level it seems, particularly around communication. Do FF realise that their most public ministers are Donnelly and Foley, who surely have approvement ratings in the single digits, while FG have paschal and Coveney who are quietly keeping things moving along?

Is there a plan, even a political one?!

Mod: We're not going to have another iteration of the "Schools closed thread', with teacher bashing and histrionics couched as 'opinion'. Any posting that strays into that territory will be met with a card and immediate threadban.

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Tippex

I just watched that car crash interview on RTE she is incapable of directly answering simple questions without going into a long winded explanation of nothingness.
First question was essentially why did it take until the middle of feb.

IAMAMORON

Smacruairi wrote: »

Govt cancelled the lc last year, teacher unions pushed for it to go ahead, just like we did this year. Easily googled, off you go. You're just wrong here, flat out, but you know that you're just trying to confuse people. Very poor attempt 2/10.

It is obvious what has been going on.

In particular from right from the top of the ASTI.

Shameful stuff.

At least have the decency to look after the students whilst using them as currency to enable your own political gain.

Triangle

Smacruairi wrote: »

Source for that please?

You know the ISSU wasn't invited to des discussions at all until the end, so are you gonna blame Norma?

I'm blaming the unions for not talking to ISSU.
The unions don't fight for the students, the ISSU don't have the power the unions do.
The government have to talk to the unions or they just strike. We've see it many times now.

And unlike your post. Here's my source to the ASTI ignoring the voice of the students.

https://www.issu.ie/news2/issu-statement-on-the-withdrawal-of-asti-from-bilateral-talks

IAMAMORON

James Brown wrote: »

Didn't much of the current issues kick off because Foley made announcements without speaking to teachers or parents first? She's in gubberment right?

No, not at all.

Not every departmental problem that exists in this country is a result of an elected official, despite what the cranks, bots and opposition might want you to believe?

At the end of the day the unions have put themselves before their students and that is shameful behaviour.

I actually would blame the government for giving the chancers an inch over the leaving cert last year, that should never have been allowed happen. All that decision has done is put wind through the sails of chunts within the unions who are more interested in self-serving their own agenda, as opposed to doing their jobs and serving the students they are employed to teach.

Gatling

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Not every departmental problem that exists in this country is a result of an elected official, despite what the cranks, bots and opposition might want you to believe?

In this case it was down to an elected official and her inept ability to even get the basics right

IAMAMORON

Gatling wrote: »

In this case it was down to an elected official and her inept ability to even get the basics right

Utter garbage, you don't even know what you are talking about , do you?

What " case " are you even referring to?

Triangle

Gatling wrote: »

In this case it was down to an elected official and her inept ability to even get the basics right

This is emotional outrage without any basis.
How, why, what basics? Are all the issues with her or is there some blame with the dept?
What about the unions, do they hold any responsibility?

Or are you just venting your anger at the establishment figurehead as she's a TD?

jam17032010

OEP wrote: »

They don't want private sector wages though.

Teachers are sacrificing the potential to make a big salary over - take your pick from - love of vocation, subject, lifestyle... Yes there will be some who take advantage of the lifestyle aspect but they are in the minority. Not being able to progress like in the private sector is, in my opinion, a huge downside to teaching and the main reason why I could never do it.

A teacher with 27 years experience makes €70k - I was earning in or around this after 4 years and I'm very much in the average in my job and not the exception. With 7 years experience I now earn the same as a principal of a medium sized school with nothing near the level of responsibility they have.

1. I'm jealous
2. I want to know what you do
3. How do I train in that field?
4. Any jobs going?

Seriously. PM if you want.

Ashbourne hoop

Tippex wrote: »

I just watched that car crash interview on RTE she is incapable of directly answering simple questions without going into a long winded explanation of nothingness.
First question was essentially why did it take until the middle of feb.

Absolutely. Full of hopefuls and caveats, but no substance. Completely out of her depth.

gordongekko

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

DES staff like those of NEPS/ NCSE and the inspectorate refused and continue to refuse to spend time in any classroom and the Dáil continues to refuse to sit in a large chamber with masks and bills the Irish tax payer for eye-watering amounts for the convention centre.

NEPS is still working away in schools. We'll while they were open they were.

History Queen

IAMAMORON wrote: »

The problem is that the tail has been wagging the dog.

The unions have been deliberately intransigent to suit their own ends. They even managed to get last years' leaving cert called off, what a shambles.

Then they have the audacity to go online and start blaming the minister?

Disgraceful. The unions should be ashamed of themselves for using this emergency as an opportunity to benefit their members at the expense of the students they are supposed to be teaching ..... and then turning around and blaming the gubbermint?

Shameful behaviour.

Hahahahahahahha... hilarious spin.

History Queen

IAMAMORON wrote: »

No, not at all.

Not every departmental problem that exists in this country is a result of an elected official, despite what the cranks, bots and opposition might want you to believe?

At the end of the day the unions have put themselves before their students and that is shameful behaviour.

I actually would blame the government for giving the chancers an inch over the leaving cert last year, that should never have been allowed happen. All that decision has done is put wind through the sails of chunts within the unions who are more interested in self-serving their own agenda, as opposed to doing their jobs and serving the students they are employed to teach.

You really don't know the ins and outs of the issue you are pontificating on do you?

Unions didn't cancel last year's LC

James Brown

IAMAMORON wrote: »

It is obvious what has been going on.

In particular from right from the top of the ASTI.

Shameful stuff.

At least have the decency to look after the students whilst using them as currency to enable your own political gain.

You are just throwing out random rage soundbites here. Your last comment was completely wrong.

iamwhoiam

Tippex wrote: »

I just watched that car crash interview on RTE she is incapable of directly answering simple questions without going into a long winded explanation of nothingness.
First question was essentially why did it take until the middle of feb.

Absolutely ! She speaks and says nothing , its so obvious and people are laughing at her now

Floppybits

History Queen wrote: »

Hahahahahahahha... hilarious spin.

Typical answer, it's always someone else's fault. They have had nearly a year to have a plan ready for this year. No forward thinking in the department just lurch from one fiasco to another led by another incompetent FF minister.

Iguarantee

jam17032010 wrote: »

1. I'm jealous
2. I want to know what you do
3. How do I train in that field?
4. Any jobs going?

Seriously. PM if you want.

I did the same as the other poster I.e. earned €70,000/yr only 4 years after graduating.

My advice is get a degree with transferable skills e.g. engineering, get a few years experience working on projects of some sort (construction is has lots of jobs in Ireland and Europe). Anything that gets you ownership of work, experience managing people, deadlines, budgets.

Get a job for a large multinational as a contractor. Earn €70k+ 4 years after graduating.

I’ve done it, so has the other poster it seems and like them I’m also nowhere near the top earning power for my profession. I’ve friends on €100k+ with perhaps 3 or 4 years more experience than me.

So, the following are what’s needed:

1) Base qualification that applies to as many industries as possible (problem solving, management of people, processing data etc)

2) experience dealing with people, in a professional environment

3) a CV that contains all the keywords and buzzwords that these employers want to see e.g. multi-disciplinary team, project, management, communication as well as industry specific keywords.

4) be able to back up your CV

There are probably many other ways to do it, that’s the one that I know. Best of luck

James Brown

IAMAMORON wrote: »

No, not at all.

Not every departmental problem that exists in this country is a result of an elected official, despite what the cranks, bots and opposition might want you to believe?

At the end of the day the unions have put themselves before their students and that is shameful behaviour.

I actually would blame the government for giving the chancers an inch over the leaving cert last year, that should never have been allowed happen. All that decision has done is put wind through the sails of chunts within the unions who are more interested in self-serving their own agenda, as opposed to doing their jobs and serving the students they are employed to teach.

She attacked teachers because they raised concerns. She used students to try sway public opinion against the teachers. It had mixed results to say the least. Not a new tactic from the right.
They are unions set up to represent members.

jimmycrackcorm

Tippex wrote: »

I just watched that car crash interview on RTE she is incapable of directly answering simple questions without going into a long winded explanation of nothingness.
First question was essentially why did it take until the middle of feb.

Ministers are generally politicians who are elected for reasons other than actually being able to do the job. The most effective politicians ever have only been people who can inspire people.

IAMAMORON wrote: »

It is obvious what has been going on.

In particular from right from the top of the ASTI.

Shameful stuff.

At least have the decency to look after the students whilst using them as currency to enable your own political gain.

The problem with the teaching unions is that they're not concerned one iota about the students. Their job is to look after their member's interests and essentially they are pretty good at that.

But they will never come up with any improvements or solutions. All you will hear from them are complaints about any initiatives, whether it is the exam situation, or project maths or whatever.

It's their prerogative and purpose, but that's why they don't get any public support when they take strike action because they forget they are supposed to be teaching the kids of the public that they look to for support. Also why these threads tend to turn into teacher bashing.

Just for once, wouldn't it be nice, if the first thing you heard from ASTI or the other unions was a message about how they could improve our education system without including the "give us more money" part?

James Brown

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Ministers are generally politicians who are elected for reasons other than actually being able to do the job. The most effective politicians ever have only been people who can inspire people.

The problem with the teaching unions is that they're not concerned one iota about the students. Their job is to look after their member's interests and essentially they are pretty good at that.

But they will never come up with any improvements or solutions. All you will hear from them are complaints about any initiatives, whether it is the exam situation, or project maths or whatever.

It's their prerogative and purpose, but that's why they don't get any public support when they take strike action because they forget they are supposed to be teaching the kids of the public that they look to for support. Also why these threads tend to turn into teacher bashing.

Just for once, wouldn't it be nice, if the first thing you heard from ASTI or the other unions was a message about how they could improve our education system without including the "give us more money" part?

The unions look after the workers not the education system. Foley was a teacher, she no ideas herself, her being in 'gubbermint' n' all?

Galwayguy35

Norma wouldn't want to be reading this thread, yeah she is inexperienced at the job but she is no worse than previous Ministers in the job.

The unions are a law to themselves and the Government are afraid of them, you'd wonder sometimes who is the employer.

Gatling

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Utter garbage, you don't even know what you are talking about , do you?

What " case " are you even referring to?

The past 12 months case ,

No plan ,no future plan ,no contingency plan ,
She's been utterly useless as a minister ,all were getting is a Mary Robinson impersonation ,
She failed to lead ,she failed to support the schools and most importantly she failed families when they needed support the most .
She's failed time for her to disappear and let someone bring some confidence and leadership to the role

Gatling

Triangle wrote: »

This is emotional outrage without any basis.

No emotional outrage ,

The basis is well documented she's utterly failed she either needs to step down or be pushed and let someone with compitence take the role

James Brown

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Norma wouldn't want to be reading this thread, yeah she is inexperienced at the job but she is no worse than previous Ministers in the job.

The unions are a law to themselves and the Government are afraid of them, you'd wonder sometimes who is the employer.

It's that defeatist attitude has us getting the 'best people' into office and shrugging away their antics.

I've little time for unions. They don't have the interests of society in mind and that's okay because their only job is representing their membership. That said we'd be rode ragged by private business and government looking after 'their own' if not for unions. That's why I'd never cross a picket.

Donald Trump

OEP wrote: »

They don't want private sector wages though.

Teachers are sacrificing the potential to make a big salary over - take your pick from - love of vocation, subject, lifestyle... Yes there will be some who take advantage of the lifestyle aspect but they are in the minority. Not being able to progress like in the private sector is, in my opinion, a huge downside to teaching and the main reason why I could never do it.

A teacher with 27 years experience makes €70k - I was earning in or around this after 4 years and I'm very much in the average in my job and not the exception. With 7 years experience I now earn the same as a principal of a medium sized school with nothing near the level of responsibility they have.

What is your typical day?

Do you have an absolutely fixed schedule? Clock in at 9am and clock out at 4pm regardless of workload in your current role?

You will also need to discount how much of your 70k you would need to be putting away to match a teachers pension.

You need to do that, and then pro-rate the teachers salary up to 12 months in order to compare.

a very cool kid

I don't agree with the giving a choice thing - I think the leaving could have been sat - if you use the whole school building etc. Could increase the number of questions on each paper etc.

I have no issue with them only announcing something at the last minute though - like someone else in the thread said, you're effectively telling students there's no leaving cert and to stop studying if you announce the exams won't happen too early.

Donald Trump

Weepsie wrote: »

Teachers are paid for 12 months.

Look you go look after 30 kids for 6 hours a day. Then spend another 3-4 hours a day marking, doing post school activity, planning, dealing with a*rsehole parents who think teachers time is their time.

People find it hard looking after their own kids, let alone 30.

There's a reason why it's paid as it is, and if it was so f*cking easy we'd all be doing it.

* I'm not a teacher. Was one of the paths open to me but I thiugh f*CK that with all the above

You can't compare a teacher's salary with that of someone working in a salaried job in industry. Salaried job in industry means, for anyone who earns "higher" money, you don't finish at 4 and walk out the door and think that the unfinished work is now someone else's problem.

You can look at the teaching (and lecturing, apparently) forum. You will frequently see threads of people with the dilemma that they want to move from their current permanent role in Dublin back to their home town/city but are afraid they won't be able to get right back onto the gravy train.

It's actually quite unfortunate for them to be caught in that trap. Someone in their late 20's who is trapped because they are very comfortable with what they have and are worried they won't be able to replicate it. Imagine a 29 year old carpenter, working for a construction company in Dublin, who wants to move home to Cork, but thinking "I don't want to move because, even though I'll get some sort of work there, and I'll be on the same salary scale there as here, I won't be guaranteed the same overall security.

I'm not knocking teachers. I'm just saying you can't compare their salaries with people working in industry. You should compare with nurses or guards who have similar benefits (albeit longer working weeks, shift work and far less holidays)

It is the teacher's choice to do the job. Nothing wrong with it. They seem to be impossible as a group to deal with (in terms of government agreements) though

BTW, the teachers being paid for 12 months is a moveable argument depending on what is being debated. Most teachers will tell you they are paid for the weeks they work, and that their pay is just smoothed out over 12 months!

Lmkrnr

I'd love pre schools to open up for the ecce schemes again. Is there any talk about that. This year's preschoolers will struggle big time next year in school. Isolated from friend's and not learning the foundations is a bad start in big school for any kid.

Gatling

Lmkrnr wrote: »

I'd love pre schools to open up for the ecce schemes again. Is there any talk about that. This year's preschoolers will struggle big time next year in school. Isolated from friend's and not learning the foundations is a bad start in big school for any kid.

That's where parents need to step up and teach them routines ,they will be fine once they get into junior enfants,if anything more than with parents will have been a good thing

hamburgham

Smacruairi wrote: »

Poster asked me for what would fix the crisis... I give an answer, then you post the above drivel. Your ignorance is appalling, and you even broke your own "I'm out of here to do real work lol" and posted several times more. Are you even consistent with yourself? Sad really.

I’ll let you in on a little secret. I get a lunch break.

And I said I had a “job” to do. I’m guessing the “real work” is a Freudian slip on your part.

khalessi

Lmkrnr wrote: »

I'd love pre schools to open up for the ecce schemes again. Is there any talk about that. This year's preschoolers will struggle big time next year in school. Isolated from friend's and not learning the foundations is a bad start in big school for any kid.

This years junior infants didnt struggle they settled in well as it was new for all of them and they were great, so dont be worrying. Aistear is carried out in Junior Infanst as well as preschool so it is not a big deal if they are not in Pre school because they get used to the routine quick enough.