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The way forward for LC2021

History Queen

I'm interested in the views of other teachers as to what should happen to assess the work of LC2021 students. With growing calls for cancellation of the exams and predicted grades, I fear we are sleep walking in to a repeat of last year's debacle.

My personal view is the exams should go ahead as scheduled but perhaps a further review of papers to allow for more choice should happen, suggestions submitted from subject associations maybe?

As regards projects/orals/practicals I can only speak to my own subjects. In History I feel the project should go ahead as planned.

What do others think?

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Smacruairi

3 things -1 will an algorithm be applied to PGs like last year? If so, do we know if all the errors are sorted, and if they tweaked it for high achieving schools like St Kilians etc.

2. When are the orals to take place etc?

3. Wonder how this goes down with students?

wirelessdude01

PoolDude wrote: »

I'd have suggested the opposite. Try lock in decent grades in weaker subjects and don't risk it going wrong and then nail the other 3 or 4 to try get H1's, e.g. if you find the languages difficult take the PG and try get H1's in the subjects that are more black & white.

Funny how everyone will have a different view on this.

Wombatman

Alqua wrote: »

I saw somewhere (will look for link) that students could opt for both a predicted grade and an exam, getting the higher of the 2 grades at the end. Surely the exam would take precedence? Can't see it in that article.

Edit: This wasn't where I saw it but Gavan Reilly has it here:
https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1362080602602827782

Leaving Cert 2021 pupils to be offered a predicted grade, with option to sit physical exams if wanted - the higher grade from the two will prevail

So my understanding from this is:
All students to be offered predicted grade.

Then students will be offered and option to sit the exam if wanted.

Best result will count obviously.

So timeline is:
First predicted grade given to student.
Then student decides to sit exam.

Is this how everybody else is reading the situation?

scrubs33

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

So pick your better subjects for PG and sit the harder ones or am I totally misreading it?

The devil is in the detail as they say but to be honest this is turning out like Who Wants To Be A Millionaire at the moment: 'Do you want to set your safety net at 2 H1s and and O3 or will you take a chance in a written exam?'
'Can I phone the Minister please Jeremy?'
I think mid term and the absence of Zoom is getting to me!!

wirelessdude01

Wombatman wrote: »

So my understanding from this is:
All students to be offered predicted grade.

Then students will be offered and option to sit the exam if wanted.

Best result will count obviously.

So timeline is:
First predicted grade given to student.
Then student decides to sit exam.

Is this how everybody else is reading the situation?

Gavan Reilly seems to think that CG/PG will be unknown before written exam.

Smacruairi

Either way I can still see most teachers erring on the side of caution and predicted grades will be like the English variant, with 40% higher. Literally no reason not to say to the kid "don't drop to pass, I'm sure you can get 40%" and then let them sit the paper also and sure that's their double chance of passing

am_zarathustra

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Gavan Reilly seems to think that CG/PG will be unknown before written exam.

Then I'll be recommending every kid in my class sits the exams. Got stung last year, the most unlikely student to underperform got hit in a couple of subject, not risking that again. There will be mass inflation in PGs this year so a lot of students could be effected

I can see Irish and maybe Maths having a few just take the PG and then the usual messer's but even the messer's might do better in an exam, with the last term push and all I can't "predict" that but it happens

Wombatman

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Gavan Reilly seems to think that CG/PG will be unknown before written exam.

Crazy. No choice then. Have to sit exam or risk being shafted.

wirelessdude01

Really feel for everyone who will be caught up in this process. Devil will be in the detail of said process. Wonder when will everything be fully known?

Wombatman

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Gavan Reilly seems to think that CG/PG will be unknown before written exam.

This means students will automatically receive a calculated grade for each subject they take based on their previous work and an assessment from their teacher.

They will then also have the option of sitting a physical exam for their subjects

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/leaving-cert-students-will-have-option-to-sit-exam-or-have-calculated-grades-while-the-junior-cert-has-been-cancelled-40103038.html

Again sounds like PGs first.

Then option of exam if not happy.

Random sample

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Really feel for everyone who will be caught up in this process. Devil will be in the detail of said process. Wonder when will everything be fully known?

August. Because no matter what is decided it will be changed after the fact.

am_zarathustra

Ha sure we are still waiting to find out what happened last year!!!!

Polka_Dot

Wombatman wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/leaving-cert-students-will-have-option-to-sit-exam-or-have-calculated-grades-while-the-junior-cert-has-been-cancelled-40103038.html

Again sounds like PGs first.

Then option of exam if not happy.

From the IT:

"The Government and unions are keen to encourage as many students as possible to sit the written exams and remain engaged with classes until the end of the school year.

They believe the fact that students will not have sight of their calculated grade results in advance of the June exams will provide an incentive for most students to sit the written papers as an “insurance policy”."

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/q-a-what-kind-of-choice-will-students-have-in-this-year-s-leaving-cert-1.4487662

r93kaey5p2izun

So a predicted grade for all, you choose whether or not to sit the exam without knowing the PG, and then when results come out in August you keep the higher of the grades ifv you sat an exam?

rainbowtrout

PoolDude wrote: »

I'd have suggested the opposite. Try lock in decent grades in weaker subjects and don't risk it going wrong and then nail the other 3 or 4 to try get H1's, e.g. if you find the languages difficult take the PG and try get H1's in the subjects that are more black & white.

Ya the winter exams supports that theory

rainbowtrout

Nyla Worried Son wrote: »

So a predicted grade for all, you choose whether or not to sit the exam without knowing the PG, and then when results come out in August you keep the higher of the grades ifv you sat an exam?

Yes. So it’s a gamble not sitting the exam and maybe not being happy with the predicted grade, but students can all move on together rather than sitting exams 6 months later

wirelessdude01

Be interesting to see the students reaction to this.

djemba djemba

So everyone gets a pg but has the option to do the exam and is given the highest. Exams in June.

r93kaey5p2izun

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Yes. So it’s a gamble not sitting the exam and maybe not being happy with the predicted grade, but students can all move on together rather than sitting exams 6 months later

Right. My main query then would be about levels. Will students be allowed to choose the level of the exam on the day as normal. I think any change to that would be unfair. So say they opt for HL predicted grade with risk of failing, can they then sit OL in the exam as an insurance policy?

Random sample

Nyla Worried Son wrote: »

Right. My main query then would be about levels. Will students be allowed to choose the level of the exam on the day as normal. I think any change to that would be unfair. So say they opt for HL predicted grade with risk of failing, can they then sit OL in the exam as an insurance policy?

Those are the kind of points that need to be considered before a full announcement. There’s a huge amount of work to be done on this.

r93kaey5p2izun

Yes, I also think, as I mentioned earlier, that what exactly teachers are asked to predict will be crucial. Will it be the most likely result a student would achieve with no impact from Covid disruption - as instructed last year - or what they would most likely achieve this June in light of all that has actually happened? These are very different.

Wombatman

It's like The Prisoner's Dilemma or Deal or no Deal.

"Would you like to keep what's in your PG box, or choose what is behind door number 1"?

wirelessdude01

Nyla Worried Son wrote: »

Yes, I also think, as I mentioned earlier, that what exactly teachers are asked to predict will be crucial. Will it be the most likely result a student would achieve with no impact from Covid disruption - as instructed last year - or what they would most likely achieve this June in light of all that has actually happened? These are very different.

Also the weighting applied to the various components will be key.

Mrsmum

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Be interesting to see the students reaction to this.

I think they will be very happy. They will get their Pg and then the exam is sortof like doubling their chances with no risk. My son thinks he will do all the exams because why not kind of thing except for English and Irish because he thinks they are very subjective subjects and isn't going to bother with their workload.

History Queen

Wombatman wrote: »

It's like The Prisoner's Dilemma or Deal or no Deal.

"Would you like to keep what's in your PG box, or choose what is behind door number 1"?

But it isn't really as they keep their predicted grade and if they sit the written exam they get the better of the two. It's no risk. Makes the LC much lower stakes, I wonder will that positively affect attainment?

History Queen

Mrsmum wrote: »

I think they will be very happy. The will get their Pg and then the exam is sortof like doubling their chances with no risk. My son thinks he will do all the exams because why not kind of thing except for English and Irish because he thinks they are very subjective subjects and is going to bother with their workload.

I'm hearing similar from relations and neighbours. A lot talking about only sitting their best 6.

jayo76

If a teacher gives a CG which varied wildly from what a student who decides to sit the exam gets do they still get to keep the CG? Say a teacher puts two students down for an inflated H3 and they got H7 in thd exam?

I too will be advising as many of mine as possible to take the exam, I have an excellent group for History where I would think 9 out of 16 would be capable of a H2 or H1, I will be givimg these as CG. However I will advise them to take the exam as I have no faith in random downgrading, school profiling or the moderation process.

Wombatman

km79

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Be interesting to see the students reaction to this.

Clarity choice and compassion is what they wanted and what we have gotten .
Their voice has been heard loudly in this process .
It’s time now for the SEC to take hold of the process .
Exams are exams for a reason .

History Queen

jayo76 wrote: »

If a teacher gives a CG which varied wildly from what a student who decides to sit the exam gets do they still get to keep the CG? Say a teacher puts two students down for an inflated H3 and they got H7 in thd exam?

I too will be advising as many of mine as possible to take the exam, I have an excellent group for History where I would think 9 out of 16 would be capable of a H2 or H1, I will be givimg these as CG. However I will advise them to take the exam as I have no faith in random downgrading, school profiling or the moderation process.

Not sure what formular the CG will go through this year but they are bringing in legislation to prevent teacher grade being revealled so its only the "post-algorithm" grade the students will see. I'll try find link I read that on there now