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Child Item

Norma Foley has to go [MOD WARNING IN 1ST POST]

Smacruairi

After yet another few days of leaks about the reopening of schools, it transpires that she again hadn't informed her cabinet colleagues.

Why has she not been replaced? Has there ever been a minister who has been repeatedly making a bags of this and lasted this long? Like the dept of health is bad, but this is on another level it seems, particularly around communication. Do FF realise that their most public ministers are Donnelly and Foley, who surely have approvement ratings in the single digits, while FG have paschal and Coveney who are quietly keeping things moving along?

Is there a plan, even a political one?!

Mod: We're not going to have another iteration of the "Schools closed thread', with teacher bashing and histrionics couched as 'opinion'. Any posting that strays into that territory will be met with a card and immediate threadban.

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mayo londoner

Smee_Again wrote: »

I'd argue that finding that work life balance is all part of hacking it in the private sector and you by your own admission couldn't do that, ergo, you couldn't hack it.

Not at all, not sure how you came to that conclusion, 12 years in the private sector. Construction is a stressful industry with next to no thanks or progression but you get on with it, came to a stage where I value work life balance rather than money as I have a life outside of work unlike some and needed to relocate to a different part of the country as my girlfriend is situated here, wasn't sustainable for me to keep my current job, so any other assumption you want to throw out there?

See above. Haha delusional you are, spoken like a true manager. Are you still up in that ivory tower of yours? Tell me this, how am I meant to keep my old job 200km away in another part of the country? Partly the reason I left the job is that they wanted me to be full time office based after COVID with no element of WFH, so not possible to both relocate and keep the job, but come on, throw out a few more assumptions to give me a giggle rather than talking out of your hole. 12 years is a long time to stay in an industry that 'I couldn't hack'

lawrencesummers

RandRuns wrote: »

I don't rate Norma Foley much, but if the teachers she's dealing with are as sensitive and reactionary as the ones on here, I'm not surprised she's having problems.

The problem is that she isn’t dealing with the teachers or their representatives when she is making decisions.

This might shock a lot of people, but teachers more often than not are actually parents themselves and they are acutely aware of the negative effects that schools being closed is having on not just their pupils but their children as well.

lawrencesummers

political analyst wrote: »

Why is Norma such a poor education minister even though she was a teacher until she became a TD recently? After all, teaching is a job that involves leadership, doesn't it? Isn't it important to for a minister to have empathy with front-line workers in that minister's portfolio?

Think back to your school days, lots of teachers can’t run a classroom, let alone a school, let alone a government department with massive budgets and thousands of staff.

lawrencesummers

Green Peter wrote: »

I think she's doing a great job trying to deal with a bunch of egos in a pandemic.

Many people would describe FF in much harsher terms.

maestroamado

Smacruairi wrote: »

This thread is about the minister? There's a whole thread devoted to schools reopening? She's completely out of her depth, her leaks aren't even working, and we still have no answers on a leaving cert 4 weeks out from when orals are meant to take place!!!

After yet another few days of leaks about the reopening of schools, it transpires that she again hadn't informed her cabinet colleagues.

This is the first linr of your original post.
You are saying you want "the head" of a Minister and when i ask you what she is working on this very day you say it is not up for discussion. GET REAL...

jam17032010

See mayo londoner, you are giving out about teachers and their short days and long holidays. Yet you are the one on boards.ie all day when you should be working. What a joke.

While I am on mid term this week, I guarantee I won't have time to be on here next week.

And many teachers chose their jobs for the work life balance, as did you. Stop being a hypocrite.

Iguarantee

Smee_Again wrote: »

€52K a year isn’t that much for a university graduate with 10+ years experience.

It just sounds like a lot to the unskilled and/or uneducated.

A 41 year old teacher would have closer to 20 years experience.

I question why such a job should command higher wages?

The sense of entitlement associated with teachers is laughable. In the private sector, if you want more money then you have to leverage it by changing jobs or having a salary/performance review at your current employer. This involves convincing your current/prospective employer that you’re responsible for more than your job description alludes to. I’ve never heard the teachers taking this approach, simply doing your job as described doesn’t warrant an award or a pay rise (time served salary scales excepted).

Smee_Again

mayo londoner wrote: »

Not at all, not sure how you came to that conclusion, 12 years in the private sector. Construction is a stressful industry with next to no thanks or progression but you get on with it, came to a stage where I value work life balance rather than money as I have a life outside of work unlike some and needed to relocate to a different part of the country as my girlfriend is situated here, wasn't sustainable for me to keep my current job, so any other assumption you want to throw out there?

See above. Haha delusional you are, spoken like a true manager. Are you still up in that ivory tower of yours? Tell me this, how am I meant to keep my old job 200km away in another part of the country? Partly the reason I left the job is that they wanted me to be full time office based after COVID with no element of WFH, so not possible to both relocate and keep the job, but come on, throw out a few more assumptions to give me a giggle rather than talking out of your hole. 12 years is a long time to stay in an industry that 'I couldn't hack'

I'm not a manager, don't know why you'd think that.

12 years is a long time, sure it's no wonder you're so bitter.

jam17032010

Iguarantee wrote: »

In the private sector, if you want more money then you have to leverage it by changing jobs or having a salary/performance review at your current employer. This involves convincing your current/prospective employer that you’re responsible for more than your job description alludes to. I’ve never heard the teachers taking this approach, simply doing your job as described doesn’t warrant an award or a pay rise (time served salary scales excepted).

Can you imagine this method of salary negotiation in the public sector? Laughable.

Take half an hour off there and think it through I would suggest.

French Toast

She's a poor minister, not necessarily the worst we've ever had, but definitely out of her depth. While putting a huge focus on opening schools full whack in September (which, in fairness to her, went well), herself and the DES failed to begin a contingency plan for LC2021.

Knowing what we know now, contingency planning for 2022's LC should begin in June, the minute the current batch of LCs are sorted. Will that happen? Almost certainly not.

shesty

How many of you criticising teachers have kids and are homeschooling right now? What do you actually do to homeschool? Do you sit there and complain that the teacher hasn't told you what to do? Or does that make you realise that you don't just walk into a classroom and magically know what to do off the street, that you do actually need to be educated in how to educate, and that there is work involved in it?

I have worked in private construction (I am a degree qualified civil engineer), the public sector and semi state. I also have several family members who are teachers. And I have kids, one of whom I am currently schooling.

Give me construction any day. My eyes are wide open to what teachers do. And while I will be the first to say that SOME teachers do themselves absolutely no favours (don't post all over social media about how awful it is that you have to go back to work tomorrow after 2 months off, and expect sympathy), there is a viciousness to the debate on the side of the general public that is literally shocking, given the degree of ignorance behind it. Teaching is no more or less than any other job out there and both sides need to realise that.

Smacruairi

maestroamado wrote: »

After yet another few days of leaks about the reopening of schools, it transpires that she again hadn't informed her cabinet colleagues.

This is the first linr of your original post.
You are saying you want "the head" of a Minister and when i ask you what she is working on this very day you say it is not up for discussion. GET REAL...

I've literally posted back a few pages what teachers requested back last summer, a small sample. The other thread is about reopening of schools, and it seems she hasn't done much on that either other than wanting to open back with no extra safety procedures when Ireland had the highest rate of Covid in the world.

Tokyo

Mod: We're not going to have another iteration of the "Schools closed" thread, with teacher bashing and histrionics couched as 'opinion'. Any posting that strays into that territory will be met with a card and immediate threadban.

shesty

French Toast wrote: »

While putting a huge focus on opening schools full whack in September (which, in fairness to her, went well), herself and the DES failed to begin a contingency plan for LC2021.

.

I got the impression Michael Martin was shepherding that, rather than Norma Foley being the driving force. It was when the spotlight went off it, and she was left to her own devices that it all seemed to go downhill.

French Toast

shesty wrote: »

I got the impression Michael Martin was shepherding that, rather than Norma Foley being the driving force. It was when the spotlight went off it, and she was left to her own devices that it all seemed to go downhill.

I'd say you're correct. I had never considered that slant on it, makes an awful lot of sense.

maestroamado

Smacruairi wrote: »

Sorry I don't understand your post at all, and I don't even think I've posted with you before. What are you actually on about?

I want to know why you ask for a Minister to be sacked.
When i ask what she is working on as i am typing this you simply say.
I DON'T KNOW.
You mentioned schools returning in the first line of your original post.
When i ask on this you tell me thats for another thread.
I decided to post on your thread but you do not want to engage.
If you want to get a person fired you need to know what they doing in their brief.
What are you on about??

iamwhoiam

I dont understand why anyone would think that being a teachers would equate to being a good Minister of Education .
A teacher is an educator , trained and educated to a high level . Their skill is in teaching and guiding young people
I think it is so arrogant of Ms Foley to think her training would be suitable for this job ? Surely it takes skills in politics , economics and leadership
I was a trained and skilled nurse , I wouldn’t ever consider that that would in any way make me suitable or qualified to be the Minister for Health

Smacruairi

It was after her first interview when everyone slaughtered her for her conservative views, which was actually appalling, and then she was hidden out of sight for months.

mayo londoner

jam17032010 wrote: »

See mayo londoner, you are giving out about teachers and their short days and long holidays. Yet you are the one on boards.ie all day when you should be working. What a joke.

While I am on mid term this week, I guarantee I won't have time to be on here next week.

And many teachers chose their jobs for the work life balance, as did you. Stop being a hypocrite.

:pac::pac::pac:

Ah again the irony, making a fool of yourself at this stage princess. I've been logged into work for 6hrs so far today since 7.15 this morning, it's called flexitime. Safe to say I've worked as much in those 6hrs as you will for all of next week.

Also I was under the illusion that teachers weren't in it for the holidays, but for the love of the job, how wrong was I :pac::pac:

And nothing hypocritical about it, I've clearly stated I left my last job for work/life balance and for moving location so I could hop back on the gravy train until a suitable opportunity arises.

Regardless, the whole origin of this debate relates back to the arrogance and ignorance of the poster above stating that people not earning 50k were uneducated/unskilled to which he was rightly pulled up on.

Majority of jobs require a huge amount of qualifications, experience and constant upskilling as I've outlined in my previous post,s not exactly possible in most professions to have a work life balance in addition to all of the above, nor earn more than 50k, even if I was slightly fortunate to break that magic number eventually. I've as much respect for a chef as I do for a binman, for a nurse as I do for an Aldi worker. All hardworking, just as important as each other and will require a huge amount of training and upskilling to earn a lot less than 50k a year, and yet they will all feel that they have no divine right to earn that type of money, hence why his bull**** was called out. People just get on with it and not cry and moan to the whole country at every opportunity like teachers like the whole world is against them.

OEP

Iguarantee wrote: »

A 41 year old teacher would have closer to 20 years experience.

I question why such a job should command higher wages?

The sense of entitlement associated with teachers is laughable. In the private sector, if you want more money then you have to leverage it by changing jobs or having a salary/performance review at your current employer. This involves convincing your current/prospective employer that you’re responsible for more than your job description alludes to. I’ve never heard the teachers taking this approach, simply doing your job as described doesn’t warrant an award or a pay rise (time served salary scales excepted).

How do you propose you do this in a school? I'd love to hear it

mayo londoner

Smee_Again wrote: »

I'm not a manager, don't know why you'd think that.

12 years is a long time, sure it's no wonder you're so bitter.

Haha, Yup, so bitter after 12yrs than I'm willing to go back into private when a suitable opportunity arises, Gotcha

Smacruairi

maestroamado wrote: »

I want to know why you ask for a Minister to be sacked.
When i ask what she is working on as i am typing this you simply say.
I DON'T KNOW.
You mentioned schools returning in the first line of your original post.
When i ask on this you tell me thats for another thread.
I decided to post on your thread but you do not want to engage.
If you want to get a person fired you need to know what they doing in their brief.
What are you on about??

Are you ok? You seem very incoherent.

I want her sacked because :
She failed to have a contingency for schools being closed due to covid, she didn't instigate a national remote learning platform so that school experience wouldn't vary depending on where they are in the country, she didn't plan for the leaving cert at all it seems, she didn't plan for the junior cert at all and still hasnt, her communication is awful, and she lies about having consulted people and is routinely corrected by the tanaiste and taoiseach, in the public no less. She has made no provision for children with additional needs, seems to not talk to parents at all unless through twitter, and her public utterances routinely inflame everyone.

What about that is unclear to you?

Tokyo

mayo londoner wrote: »

:pac::pac::pac:

Ah again the irony, making a fool of yourself at this stage princess. I've been logged into work for 6hrs so far today since 7.15 this morning, it's called flexitime. Safe to say I've worked as much in those 6hrs as you will for all of next week.

Mod: mayo londoner - don't post in the thread again.

bettyoleary

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Id love to hear how some people would propose solving the issue with the unions holding education to ransom? Easy to say shes this and shes that but does anyone actually have a viable alternative around opening schools that wouldnt involve these powerful unions?

Im delighted with the unions , they are not powerfull enough in my opinion. They have, when forced, had to protect teachers from unsafe working environments. Whats the issue? Thats why we have unions.

Smee_Again

mayo londoner wrote: »

Regardless, the whole origin of this debate relates back to the arrogance and ignorance of the poster above stating that people not earning 50k were uneducated/unskilled to which he was rightly pulled up on.

I never said that, didn't imply it and nor do I think it.

Iguarantee

jam17032010 wrote: »

Can you imagine this method of salary negotiation in the public sector? Laughable.

Take half an hour off there and think it through I would suggest.

My point wasn’t a direct transplant of the private sector model to the public sector. I was stating that, in the private sector, an increase in pay is almost always substantiated with actual evidence.

Salaries are higher in the private sector because people are more profitable in the private sector.

As an example: there are call centre staff working at Apple that make more than €51k a year, not because they’re more educated than teachers, but because they provide more non-productive income for Apple.

I’ve seen it in my own work: I’m paid €X, I’m contracted to another company and my agency charges them 1.5X or 2X in some cases.

Teachers do an important job. But they want private sector wages whilst retaining the security of public sector jobs. They can’t have it both ways unless something major changes.

political analyst

Gatling wrote: »

Being a teacher doesn't mean you would make a great or exceptional minister ,she's litterally driving blind she wasn't listening to anyone at the table ,then met with one special needs parents group and suddenly special needs are priory over Everyone else , rather than take the approach of keeping all children safe ,she decided she was queen b and she knows better than everyone else ,

Neither does it make her a bad minister.

political analyst

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I dont understand why anyone would think that being a teachers would equate to being a good Minister of Education .
A teacher is an educator , trained and educated to a high level . Their skill is in teaching and guiding young people
I think it is so arrogant of Ms Foley to think her training would be suitable for this job ? Surely it takes skills in politics , economics and leadership
I was a trained and skilled nurse , I wouldn’t ever consider that that would in any way make me suitable or qualified to be the Minister for Health

Studying for a degree is much harder than getting elected.

Smacruairi

Iguarantee wrote: »

Salaries are higher in the private sector because people are more profitable in the private sector.
.

Salaries are higher owing to supply and demand, rare skills and profitable skills vs non. It's why Mcdonalds pays x and Google pays y.

Teachers are public servants, their salaries kept the same so that you don't end up with a ton of private schools all competing for "the best teachers", and teachers not handing out handy grades for bonuses to match your "evidence" argument.

If you want every school to be a grinds school (go Google what the institute pays its head of maths for example), then fine, but watch the salaries rise even more. Likewise if you pay x in Dublin but y in Leitrim, watch all the schools shut down fairly sharply owing to no one around to run them.

Also you know there is a teacher recruitment crisis right? If you teach Irish or maths or a language or home ec and were able to break the salary scale, you could literally write any number on a piece of paper right now?

OEP

Iguarantee wrote: »

My point wasn’t a direct transplant of the private sector model to the public sector. I was stating that, in the private sector, an increase in pay is almost always substantiated with actual evidence.

Salaries are higher in the private sector because people are more profitable in the private sector.

As an example: there are call centre staff working at Apple that make more than €51k a year, not because they’re more educated than teachers, but because they provide more non-productive income for Apple.

I’ve seen it in my own work: I’m paid €X, I’m contracted to another company and my agency charges them 1.5X or 2X in some cases.

Teachers do an important job. But they want private sector wages whilst retaining the security of public sector jobs. They can’t have it both ways unless something major changes.

They don't want private sector wages though.

Teachers are sacrificing the potential to make a big salary over - take your pick from - love of vocation, subject, lifestyle... Yes there will be some who take advantage of the lifestyle aspect but they are in the minority. Not being able to progress like in the private sector is, in my opinion, a huge downside to teaching and the main reason why I could never do it.

A teacher with 27 years experience makes €70k - I was earning in or around this after 4 years and I'm very much in the average in my job and not the exception. With 7 years experience I now earn the same as a principal of a medium sized school with nothing near the level of responsibility they have.