How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

RobMc59 wrote: »

In the two and a half years I've been posting here the republicans are still saying the same thing 'it's going to be our year ' but nothing ever changes.Now NI is very well placed to benefit from its unique situation it's going to be even harder to persuade citizens who are becoming less entrenched in their views that anything needs to change.

Can you show ONE post that says this?

RobMc59 wrote:

'it's going to be our year

Then can you present some data backing up the rest of what you say.
Surely what we have seen in the last week is more ultra 'entrenchment' of belligerent Unionism; once again, cutting off it's nose to spite it's face?

Sam Russell

RobMc59 wrote: »

In the two and a half years I've been posting here the republicans are still saying the same thing 'it's going to be our year ' but nothing ever changes.Now NI is very well placed to benefit from its unique situation it's going to be even harder to persuade citizens who are becoming less entrenched in their views that anything needs to change.

At the moment (and for a very long time) the question of a UI is a bit of St Augustine dilemma - 'God, make me a good man, but not just yet' - and the view of many that NI is better off in the UK despite the economic and other indicators showing that the truth of that is not true for everyone, particularly with the UK subvention propping up the economy. NHS is suffering from funding problems, social welfare rates are lower, etc. etc.

Of course that is to ignore that the need for huge subvention the the UK Gov hands to NI every year might not continue for ever. If that subvention were to be systematically be reduced over the years, it would become clearer the NI has better options than remaining in the UK.

Sam Russell wrote: »

But those 18 MPs sit in a chamber of 630 MPs and none of the NI MPs have ever been Ministers in a UK Gov.

The number of TDs is dictated by the number of ministers. If you need 15 ministers, then the Gov party or parties needs to have sufficient numbers that they can select 15 able persons from their numbers, otherwise just getting elected would give some useless TDs a free pass to Minister. We currently have Junior Ministers as well which doubles the problem. We already have this problem when multi party coalitions are formed, particularly if it includes independents. So some single issue TD from a rural constituency with a special problem gets a ministry - not a good look.

Of course, if much of the power of the central Gov is delegated to regional assemblies (subsidiarity) then the number of central Ministers is reduced. However, we still need Ministers to be on the EU Council of Ministers and that places demands on Central Gov.

So a reduced Dail is going to be unlikely - if anything it will be increased unless the Constitution is changed.

Threre is no way except possibly Hume and maybe a few others would be fit for UK ministery.

My information is Constitution says a minimum of 15 ministers and the guideline is one TD for each 30,000 persons approx, i do not this is written into constitution but i may be wrong in this.
The only reason i mention this is someone said there be new Constitution if UI.
BTW UK nas MP for each 100,000 people, NI pretty much same.

[Deleted User]

Sam Russell wrote: »

At the moment (and for a very long time) the question of a UI is a bit of St Augustine dilemma - 'God, make me a good man, but not just yet' - and the view of many that NI is better off in the UK despite the economic and other indicators showing that the truth of that is not true for everyone, particularly with the UK subvention propping up the economy. NHS is suffering from funding problems, social welfare rates are lower, etc. etc.

Of course that is to ignore that the need for huge subvention the the UK Gov hands to NI every year might not continue for ever. If that subvention were to be systematically be reduced over the years, it would become clearer the NI has better options than remaining in the UK.

The uk has a GDP of 2.8 trillion, the subvention is nothing to them. Taking on NI would be the equivalent of a 30% increase in Welfare or PS pay if we take a conservative figure of 5bn.

Throw in the investment required to fix NI and you could easily double or triple that figure.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Can you show ONE post that says this?

Then can you present some data backing up the rest of what you say.
Surely what we have seen in the last week is more ultra 'entrenchment' of belligerent Unionism; once again, cutting off it's nose to spite it's face?

I suggested the people of NI are moving away from entrenched views Francie,I didn't mention political parties.

jh79 wrote: »

The uk has a GDP of 2.8 trillion, the subvention is nothing to them. Taking on NI would be the equivalent of a 30% increase in Welfare or PS pay if we take a conservative figure of 5bn.

Throw in the investment required to fix NI and you could easily double or triple that figure.

I am thinking Boris angle maybe EU make contribution as he conceded to sea border, if it does not work the border will return if there is not a financial solution.
NI politicians have backed themselves into a corner as they want exemption from the bits that not suit them.

RobMc59 wrote: »

I suggested the people of NI are moving away from entrenched views Francie,I didn't mention political parties.

4% of the people who support the entrenched views of the DUP have moved away from that to the MORE entrenched views of the TUV.

Belligerent Unionism is becoming more entrenched.
The main move to the middle ground happened years ago...in the period between the AIA up to the Brexit referendum.
Belligerent Unionism has lost the room, that is quite clear now, they cannot muster the support Ian Paisley did. I think the 'petition' clearly demonstrates that. That is the massive shift.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Thanks for that. So was there anything I stated that was not 100% correct?

Your ability to understand why there are health checks on animals coming onto the island of Ireland. Did you learn nothing from the Foot & Mouth? Since NI is the only completely Free BSE jurisdiction (hasn't had a case of BSE in 5 years) in both GB & Ireland, I'm surprised at your lax attitude bringing stock onto the island.

jm08 wrote: »

Your ability to understand why there are health checks on animals coming onto the island of Ireland. Did you learn nothing from the Foot & Mouth? Since NI is the only completely Free BSE jurisdiction (hasn't had a case of BSE in 5 years) in both GB & Ireland, I'm surprised at your lax attitude bringing stock onto the island.

Doesn't look like the EU are for turning on any of that. The North's farmers are next to be hurt by Brexit.

Sam Russell

maestroamado wrote: »

Threre is no way except possibly Hume and maybe a few others would be fit for UK ministery.

My information is Constitution says a minimum of 15 ministers and the guideline is one TD for each 30,000 persons approx, i do not this is written into constitution but i may be wrong in this.
The only reason i mention this is someone said there be new Constitution if UI.
BTW UK nas MP for each 100,000 people, NI pretty much same.

Maximum

ARTICLE 28

1 The Government shall consist of not less than seven and not more than fifteen members who shall be appointed by the President in accordance with the provisions of this Constitution.

They have got over this by having Junior and even Super Junior ministers.

Sam Russell

jh79 wrote: »

The uk has a GDP of 2.8 trillion, the subvention is nothing to them. Taking on NI would be the equivalent of a 30% increase in Welfare or PS pay if we take a conservative figure of 5bn.

Throw in the investment required to fix NI and you could easily double or triple that figure.

Well, their subvention to the EU was less than that to NI, and that was considered so serious an amount that they painted on the side of a red bus and drove it around England to call for the LEAVE vote. So do not be surprised that it would not be used against NI at some point.

Putting it in terms of the per person subvention for NI would be quite persuasive (if the rest of the UK had a vote in the matter - which they do not and will not).

jm08

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Doesn't look like the EU are for turning on any of that. The North's farmers are next to be hurt by Brexit.

The French won't have any relaxing of SPS checks. They remember well at how foot and mouth spread to France (from what I recall, sheep from NI that went through Rosslare to France).

Sam Russell wrote: »

Maximum

They have got over this by having Junior and even Super Junior ministers.

Thanks obviously what i read was political spin...

maestroamado wrote: »

Thanks obviously what i read was political spin...

Just out of curiosity, could you explain this line?

Threre is no way except possibly Hume and maybe a few others would be fit for UK ministery.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, could you explain this lin?

which lin?

maestroamado wrote: »

which lin?

Apologies dodgy keyboard. Edited post above.

All ok but i did not understand what you asked...

maestroamado wrote: »

All ok but i did not understand what you asked...

Can you explain what you mean by that line?

Threre is no way except possibly Hume and maybe a few others would be fit for UK ministery.

Hume is dead btw. Are you saying the north has nobody fit to be a minister in the UK?

The very fact that there are different factions in NI politice make this impossible in my opinion.

"cash for ash" for example and no-one resigned and closed NI down for about 18 Months i think...
I was aware Hume has passed, a good man...

maestroamado wrote: »

The very fact that there are different factions in NI politice make this impossible in my opinion.

"cash for ash" for example and no-one resigned and closed NI down for about 18 Months i think...
I was aware Hume has passed, a good man...

There's different 'factions' throughout UK politics. There are even different factions within the Tories.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There's different 'factions' throughout UK politics. There are even different factions within the Tories.

I'd suggest the poster has a look into the ERG with regards to the Tories, or the issues Labour experienced due to the Momentum/Corbyn supporting faction within the party.

Factions exist within politics everywhere in the word. It is by no means unique to NI.

I think this thread about United Ireland?
If Ireland is ever to be united people have to stop blaming others until first question their own role in conversation.

maestroamado wrote: »

I think this thread about United Ireland?
If Ireland is ever to be united people have to stop blaming others until first question their own role in conversation.

That is a total non sequitur. You brought up factions in NI politics as a reason that NI politicians aren't fit for ministerial positions, people pointed out that factions exist in politics everywhere.....who is blaming others exactly?!

Maybe you can straighten out the logic here for me?

Person A) NI politicians aren't suitable for British ministerial positions as factions exist in NI politics

Person

But factional politics exist everywhere. The existence of the ERG doesn't prevent the Tories from taking British ministerial positions.

Person A) This is about Irish unification, stop blaming other people.

Fionn1952 wrote: »

That is a total non sequitur. You brought up factions in NI politics as a reason that NI politicians aren't fit for ministerial positions, people pointed out that factions exist in politics everywhere.....who is blaming others exactly?!

Maybe you can straighten out the logic here for me?

Person A) NI politicians aren't suitable for British ministerial positions as factions exist in NI politics

Person But factional politics exist everywhere. The existence of the ERG doesn't prevent the Tories from taking British ministerial positions.

Person A) This is about Irish unification, stop blaming other people.

I'm lost.

Fionn1952 wrote: »

That is a total non sequitur. You brought up factions in NI politics as a reason that NI politicians aren't fit for ministerial positions, people pointed out that factions exist in politics everywhere.....who is blaming others exactly?!

Maybe you can straighten out the logic here for me?

Person A) NI politicians aren't suitable for British ministerial positions as factions exist in NI politics

Person But factional politics exist everywhere. The existence of the ERG doesn't prevent the Tories from taking British ministerial positions.

Person A) This is about Irish unification, stop blaming other people.

I did not blame anyone i just stated what i see, you ask me something i can answer i will try...

maestroamado wrote: »

I did not blame anyone i just stated what i see, you ask me something i can answer i will try...

No, you suggested that other people were blaming people?

This is getting very confusing. I don't mean this to insult, but as a genuine question; is English your first language? It is totally fine if it isn't, and I'll try a bit harder to be more clear on my points, but perhaps this is where we are all getting our wires crossed, potentially specifically around the use of the word, 'factional'.

Essentially the core of my question is this. You stated that you don't believe NI politicians are fit for ministerial positions as politics in NI is factional. I stated that politics in Westminster is already factional, for example you have have ERG faction within the Tory Party and the Momentum faction within the Labour Party. As both the Tory Party and Labour Party are apparently fit for ministerial positions, then clearly it isn't due to factions that you believe NI politicians aren't fit for these positions. I was hoping you could clarify why you believe the factional nature of politics in NI makes someone like Naomi Long unsuitable for a Ministerial position, but the factional nature of English politics doesn't make someone like Michael Gove unsuitable for a Ministerial position?

I think the people should have a vote on it, if Unionism thinks it without consent. Seems the logical thing to do.

https://mobile.twitter.com/SJAMcBride/status/1359193632188862469

Fionn1952 wrote: »

No, you suggested that other people were blaming people?

This is getting very confusing. I don't mean this to insult, but as a genuine question; is English your first language? It is totally fine if it isn't, and I'll try a bit harder to be more clear on my points, but perhaps this is where we are all getting our wires crossed, potentially specifically around the use of the word, 'factional'.

Essentially the core of my question is this. You stated that you don't believe NI politicians are fit for ministerial positions as politics in NI is factional. I stated that politics in Westminster is already factional, for example you have have ERG faction within the Tory Party and the Momentum faction within the Labour Party. As both the Tory Party and Labour Party are apparently fit for ministerial positions, then clearly it isn't due to factions that you believe NI politicians aren't fit for these positions. I was hoping you could clarify why you believe the factional nature of politics in NI makes someone like Naomi Long unsuitable for a Ministerial position, but the factional nature of English politics doesn't make someone like Michael Gove unsuitable for a Ministerial position?

If you think there are no factions in NI you are not living in reality.
Niomi Long may be brilliant but putting a Miniser from NI simply not an option...
There is no political comparision anywhere else in UK to NI...

maestroamado wrote: »

If you think there are no factions in NI you are not living in reality.
Niomi Long may be brilliant but putting a Miniser from NI simply not an option...
There is no political comparision anywhere else in UK to NI...

....I have literally just agreed that there are factions in NI politics. I have not disputed this at any point.

I'm really struggling here because you seem to be arguing with points that no one is making and then making your own arguments back that aren't actually related to the points you are replying to.