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The way forward for LC2021

History Queen

I'm interested in the views of other teachers as to what should happen to assess the work of LC2021 students. With growing calls for cancellation of the exams and predicted grades, I fear we are sleep walking in to a repeat of last year's debacle.

My personal view is the exams should go ahead as scheduled but perhaps a further review of papers to allow for more choice should happen, suggestions submitted from subject associations maybe?

As regards projects/orals/practicals I can only speak to my own subjects. In History I feel the project should go ahead as planned.

What do others think?

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History Queen

Looks like subject associations have been asked for feedback.

https://twitter.com/INOTEnews/status/1354440556861149185?s=19

Or maybe they're just doing it of their own volition.

ascophyllum

One of the scenarios I see possibly being put forward is delayed exams in July say, and 2 weeks extra teaching being asked of LC teachers in June. With maybe a delayed return to school in September. How would people feel about that? The unions would have a difficult decision to make there.

History Queen

ascophyllum wrote: »

One of the scenarios I see possibly being put forward is delayed exams in July say, and 2 weeks extra teaching being asked of LC teachers in June. With maybe a delayed return to school in September. How would people feel about that? The unions would have a difficult decision to make there.

I'd be ok with it. It's what we were being asked to do last year until the plug was pulled.

Mrsmum

I think the LC students are very jittery at the moment because being kept in the dark is not suiting them. They are all feeding into anxiety from each other on their social media feeds.The Government need to come out with a detailed plan very quickly to stave off a tipping point. My son keeps his head in the books for the most part but every day he asks me "any news" meaning any official news and then when I have nothing he tells me X said this and Y said that. And I know all this uncertainty is bothering him. They deserve a proper factual statement at this stage.

am_zarathustra

Rosita wrote: »

That may be true, but I think many students feel they almost cannot afford to take OL at a subject that gives nearly a 30% marks bonus for just passing. They might get little out of it and find it a time-consuming struggle but there's the fear that someone else in exactly the same boat who might not be great will get over the line for 40% and get that bonus. The rewards of the 'time spent' on other subjects is comparatively relatively abstract. It's a hideously exaggerated bonus and will always have a magnetic attraction for many.

The risk in maths is mad to take though. You could get completely screwed with the paper, it does actually vary and, though there are preparable bits, you'd need some understanding to know what they were asking. In my other subject anyone with enough time on their hands could get a excellent grade at Higher Level, it's work in, work out with an allowance for your memory and general intelligence making it easier or harder.......I've seen good kids kill themselves in HL maths and fail or be lucky and scrape a pass (luck should not dictate this really). Failure rate at HL maths is steady at over 7%....1 in 14 student who sit it! Very few of those students, I'd guess, weren't told to drop

I hope all they are doing in discussing the details about the way the exams will run as opposed to half assing it like last year and being forced into cancelling last minute.

Anything to be said for orals over zoom etc.....I know broadband varies but even recordings etc.??

Str8outtaWuhan

ascophyllum wrote: »

One of the scenarios I see possibly being put forward is delayed exams in July say, and 2 weeks extra teaching being asked of LC teachers in June. With maybe a delayed return to school in September. How would people feel about that? The unions would have a difficult decision to make there.

Unions agreed to it last yr, The question you should be asking is why the extra time is needed in june? if its to make up for lost Teaching time, does that mean what teachers are doing now doesn't count? If not , is it just for show? Students who sat the LC last Nov didn't get access to teachers during OCT midterm

Rosita

ascophyllum wrote: »

One of the scenarios I see possibly being put forward is delayed exams in July say, and 2 weeks extra teaching being asked of LC teachers in June. With maybe a delayed return to school in September. How would people feel about that? The unions would have a difficult decision to make there.

I'd say the chances of this are pretty much zero because it assumes a quick, uncomplicated return to school, and essentially a decision deferred for quite some time if the variant strains continue to cause havoc. (Or at least the deferral of a final decision that might not have to be revisited)

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin has said today (or at least reported today) that "it is clear that written exams cannot take place". It would be helpful if the information behind this was shared. Presumably the government doesn't want students to down tools and be given predicted grades even before they have even chosen their levels but it looks like there are rumblings behind the scenes.

Had to laugh at Colm O'Rourke's (on the face of it reasonable and sensible) suggestion of vaccinating teachers so as to allow the exams to proceed. FFS the vaccination process is quite likely to become another elongated disorganised shambles. The idea that they would be capable of giving two shots of vaccines to thousands of teachers in quick time is a joke. And if it was attempted to bring teachers up the pecking order we'd soon find out how the land of saints and scholars really values education.

mirrorwall14

I really would like to see the opportunity taken to decouple the LC from college entry a bit tbh. If we have to do predicted grades then there should also be some attempt to do a better job matching students to courses than points. It should be far more nuanced. They have the time this year to trial that

Eg students can take 5 subjects of their choice for LC but every college course also has to list the subjects they feel would work best for their course. Students have to try and take those exams. If they don’t have the appropriate subjects then they write to the college explaining why they feel they are a good fit for the course

Very back of the envelope but I really would hate to see us using points generated from basically no data tbh. I’d be massively concerned about the drop out rates in college. And that’s an expensive mistake to make

Wombatman

Rosita wrote: »

I'd say the chances of this are pretty much zero because it assumes a quick, uncomplicated return to school, and essentially a decision deferred for quite some time if the variant strains continue to cause havoc. (Or at least the deferral of a final decision that might not have to be revisited)

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin has said today (or at least reported today) that "it is clear that written exams cannot take place". It would be helpful if the information behind this was shared. Presumably the government doesn't want students to down tools and be given predicted grades even before they have even chosen their levels but it looks like there are rumblings behind the scenes.

Had to laugh at Colm O'Rourke's (on the face of it reasonable and sensible) suggestion of vaccinating teachers so as to allow the exams to proceed. FFS the vaccination process is quite likely to become another elongated disorganised shambles. The idea that they would be capable of giving two shots of vaccines to thousands of teachers in quick time is a joke. And if it was attempted to bring teachers up the pecking order we'd soon find out how the land if saints and scholars really values education.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin opinion is about as valuable as yours or mine considering he is not in government.

Rosita

Wombatman wrote: »

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin opinion is about as valuable as yours or mine considering he is not in government.

It might be a fair bit more valuable than mine in that he, presumably, hears the conversations that go on in Leinster House and hears feedback on the pandemic through this parliamentary role. Him not being in government prevents him making decisions but that is quite different from being in the information vacuum I am in I would suggest.

indolent

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I really would like to see the opportunity taken to decouple the LC from college entry a bit tbh. If we have to do predicted grades then there should also be some attempt to do a better job matching students to courses than points. It should be far more nuanced. They have the time this year to trial that

Eg students can take 5 subjects of their choice for LC but every college course also has to list the subjects they feel would work best for their course. Students have to try and take those exams. If they don’t have the appropriate subjects then they write to the college explaining why they feel they are a good fit for the course

Very back of the envelope but I really would hate to see us using points generated from basically no data tbh. I’d be massively concerned about the drop out rates in college. And that’s an expensive mistake to make

If students cannot sit the exams with the myriad of supports and accommodations that have been made for them, something tells me they shouldn't be going to college. You want the LC overhauled but with the possibility of all sorts of shenanigans in the interview/personal statement crap, you'll soon realize the LC is a much fairer and objective portrayal of academic achievement.

Strong opposition from the unions will put a stop to the populist nonsense coming from Mick Barry and the sort.

mirrorwall14

indolent wrote: »

If students cannot sit the exams with the myriad of supports and accommodations that have been made for them, something tells me they shouldn't be going to college. You want the LC overhauled but with the possibility of all sorts of shenanigans in the interview/personal statement crap, you'll soon realize the LC is a much fairer and objective portrayal of academic achievement.

Strong opposition from the unions will put a stop to the populist nonsense coming from Mick Barry and the sort.

I agree the LC is fundamentally fair as an external assessment. But I completely disagree with using it as the sole means of entry into college. I think it’s mental that the vast majority of courses don’t require a minimum standard in all relevant subjects.

The only reason I mention the essay is to deal with the students who this year might not have chosen the correct combinations for their course. I would strongly argue that they shouldn’t be picking it but presumably it would leave it open to legal challenges as the students didn’t know the requirements when starting the course.

am_zarathustra

Far more courses should have particular subject requirements. If you want to do science in college, you should generally be doing more than 1 science option in senior cycle. In theory you could get your points in music, french, german and italian and get into a science degree. This makes no sense. Very few college courses push for mandatory grades in subjects. The number of people who fail engineering or barely struggle through because there maths isn't up to scratch is shocking. It would also stop the nonsense of choosing "soft" subjects for the Leaving and would hopefully increase the number of students dropping out.

I don't hate the idea of your best 5 subjects for this year. Between that and the choice a decent student should be absolutely fine!!

mirrorwall14

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Far more courses should have particular subject requirements. If you want to do science in college, you should generally be doing more than 1 science option in senior cycle. In theory you could get your points in music, french, german and italian and get into a science degree. This makes no sense. Very few college courses push for mandatory grades in subjects. The number of people who fail engineering or barely struggle through because there maths isn't up to scratch is shocking. It would also stop the nonsense of choosing "soft" subjects for the Leaving and would hopefully increase the number of students dropping out.

I don't hate the idea of your best 5 subjects for this year. Between that and the choice a decent student should be absolutely fine!!

That is exactly my argument. I don’t think the LC is unfit for purpose (though I think a course component could perhaps be added to all subjects, even maths could have a short fifth year exam for a couple of stand alone topics) but the CAO situation is farcical. At least if students were striving for points in subjects appropriate to their course it would stand to them

Mrsmum

A bit of common sense should come into chosing college courses, not going for Engineering if you are struggling at maths, not going for Science if the only Science you have done in LC is Biology. (Mind you, I know a guy that did theoretical physics having never done physics and loved it. )However students can be very restricted by what their school offers so if colleges insisted on college courses being matched to LC subjects, I think schools would be under pressure to provide more subject choices. Can be a very limited choice at the moment.

micks_address

Chatted our son over dinner. He says he doing his classes and about 2 hours homework but finding it hard to do revision. He’s spoke to his year head and tutor and they said it’s fine if he does the homework as it’s structured to cover what’s needed. Says he can’t motivate himself to spend all day in school in his room, 2 hours homework and then additional study.
Tried to get him to expect the exams will go ahead as normal but he finds it hard to expect that and even says all his class are same and they will be in trouble if March 1st exams are announced as normal

rainbowtrout

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I agree the LC is fundamentally fair as an external assessment. But I completely disagree with using it as the sole means of entry into college. I think it’s mental that the vast majority of courses don’t require a minimum standard in all relevant subjects.

The only reason I mention the essay is to deal with the students who this year might not have chosen the correct combinations for their course. I would strongly argue that they shouldn’t be picking it but presumably it would leave it open to legal challenges as the students didn’t know the requirements when starting the course.

I would say the only valid interview type would be based on ability, such as music and art are currently, portfolio or performance. Given the country we are living it, any interviews or personal statements would be wide open to abuse and I would say within a couple of years we would see a far lower number of students from disadvantaged backgrounds getting into the 'prestige courses' etc, not to mind offerings for courses on 'how to write an admissions essay that will guarantee you access to the course you desire'.

I do agree with the minimum standards. When I applied for my course 25 odd years ago, you had to get a HC3 in a science subject.

Now it is a H5 in a HL science or maths and the other one ...

EDIT: Actually I just looked up the course:eek::eek::eek:

General entry requirements are 2H5s and 4O6s OR 4H7s.

Specific requirements Maths: O3/H7 and an O4/H7 in a lab science.

Fcuk me I don't want science teachers barely able to scrape a H7 in a science teaching the subject.

Granted the people who got into the course probably got higher than that, but that's not the point. Some of the people who will get a H7 for me, have spent the last two years looking out the window and would prefer to spend the day scrolling through Done Deal. :mad:

rainbowtrout

Mrsmum wrote: »

A bit of common sense should come into chosing college courses, not going for Engineering if you are struggling at maths, not going for Science if the only Science you have done in LC is Biology. (Mind you, I know a guy that did theoretical physics having never done physics and loved it. )However students can be very restricted by what their school offers so if colleges insisted on college courses being matched to LC subjects, I think schools would be under pressure to provide more subject choices. Can be a very limited choice at the moment.

Yes and no. If a student is struggling with maths, engineering is generally not a good idea. If a student has only studied biology it can be because that's all their school offers, but that doesn't mean they don't have the aptitude for science. If they are getting a high grade in Biology fire ahead. If they are struggling with biology then Science in third level may not be the best option for them.

Some smaller rural schools have a very restricted subject choice. Students in these schools would be seriously disadvantaged if they had to match up multiple subjects. It also wouldn't be particularly realistic as every course would have it's own list of requirements.

am_zarathustra

All science courses should have a minimum of one lab science with a particular grade (H5etc) and a maths restriction! Every secondary offers one lab science. We are a tiny secondary, probably one of the smallest in the country and we offer two lab sciences becauses thats what the kids wanted. It wouldnt be a raft of requirements but it might help kids focus in on what they are good at or what like earlier. I am a better science teacher and was a better scientist because I did all three sciences, I recognise that's unusual and my school was huge but nothing I learned in those 2 years was pointless and I knew that at the time.

shesty

To be fair most people don't wander into engineering unless they have a pretty strong drive to stay in it. Those who can't manage tend to drop out pretty quickly, points or no points.

It's not for the faint-hearted

However I see your point in general. There were people in engineering with me whose sole science subject was Biology. Completely useless in terms of scientific knowledge that was relevant to engineering, but fulfilled the requirement for a science subject for entry.

deiseindublin

Really wondering what the 'modified LC' could be. Really hope it's not this nonsense of sitting only 3 papers etc.

I've an LC in the house, she's pretty drama free 95% of the time, probably because she doesn't even bother to watch the news :rolleyes:. Anyway, even she is beginning to 'What if' every possible scenario.

She's doing 8 subjects due to not getting an option that's a mandatory requirement for the course she wants. Honestly, wish she had a few she wanted and at least she/we/the whole house would have the same pressure.

I wish they'd just tell them all to shut up about it, LC is definitely happening, keep the head down and we'll get back to you when this particular **** storm passes, at least then we might have some answers'.

I'm finding it really crazy trying to balance teaching FT online with all the admin duties I have, and constant cooking/feeding time at the zoo also. Whole situation seems pretty relentless right now.

Rosita

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I really would like to see the opportunity taken to decouple the LC from college entry a bit tbh.

To be fair the connection is circumstantial rather than anything else. Colleges use the LC to deal with a selection process which allows them to wash their hands of it by and large, save their pre-requisites.

What would be interesting is what would be the actual take-up of the LC if college entry was decided by another means. If colleges had direct entrance exams for courses presumably the LC would be replaced in many instances by grind schools aiming at those college entry/aptitude exams. Interesting proposition though.

mirrorwall14

Rosita wrote: »

To be fair the connection is circumstantial rather than anything else. Colleges use the LC to deal with a selection process which allows them to wash their hands of it by and large, save their pre-requisites.

What would be interesting is what would be the actual take-up of the LC if college entry was decided by another means. If colleges had direct entrance exams for courses presumably the LC would be replaced in many instances by grind schools aiming at those college entry/aptitude exams. Interesting proposition though.

Yeah. I do find it interesting that it’s constantly referred to as a high stakes exam and the pressure etc. When the reality is it’s mostly only high stakes because of what it is used for. And by and large that is college entry

Rosita

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Yeah. I do find it interesting that it’s constantly referred to as a high stakes exam and the pressure etc. When the reality is it’s mostly only high stakes because of what it is used for. And by and large that is college entry

Well, I suppose nothing is high stakes if there is in fact nothing at stake. If it's not needed at all then it loses its relevance. Would be interesting to consider the impact on schools if the LC was no longer necessary. Big drop in numbers presumably for a start.

rainbowtrout

Rosita wrote: »

Well, I suppose nothing is high stakes if there is in fact nothing at stake. If it's not needed at all then it loses its relevance. Would be interesting to consider the impact on schools if the LC was no longer necessary. Big drop in numbers presumably for a start.

You'd probably end up with something like the American system in that case.

Str8outtaWuhan

rainbowtrout wrote: »

You'd probably end up with something like the American system in that case.

Gov have nailed their colours to the mast of keeping kids in school til 18. We have one of the OECD's highest retention rates , kids who drop out at 16 have very few options in ireland compared to other countries. Its all an effort to feed 3rd level with its bloated list of courses. Go be with the days of the Group Cert

Rosita

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Fcuk me I don't want science teachers barely able to scrape a H7 in a science teaching the subject.

I totally get that, but.............not everyone is in the right headspace at 17/18 either, and a few years of a college degree might be of more relevance to teach a subject that a LC grade. After studying for a degree they'd likely give the LC a far better stab if they did it again. I'd hate to be judged too harshly on everything I did at 18.

rainbowtrout

Rosita wrote: »

I totally get that, but.............not everyone is in the right headspace at 17/18 either, and a few years of a college degree might be of more relevance to teach a subject that a LC grade. After studying for a degree they'd likely give the LC a far better stab if they did it again. I'd hate to be judged too harshly on everything I did at 18.

But if they are struggling with the material at LC level, how are they going to cope with college level material?

If they have an aptitude for science, they should be able to show that at LC level. Not sure I want people to land into science degrees with poor grades in science and hope they improve and then send them out into schools to teach the subject. It's hard to foster a love of science (or any other subject) in students if you barely understand the material yourself.

One of the common gripes we see on here and elsewhere on social media is people complaining about teachers and how rubbish their teacher was for X subject. I don't want to see a situation where teaching standards fall because teachers don't know their subject. I had a student teacher last year just before the lockdown started, and for the first time I was amazed at how poor she was. Many will find their first teaching practice a steep learning curve in terms of classroom management and you give them leeway for that. But her lack of knowledge of basic science was shocking. Two weeks in I was wondering how much damage limitation I was going to have to implement to get my classes back up to speed. I can compare because she was doing the degree I hold.

History Queen

LC 2020 results finally coming out

https://twitter.com/emma_okelly/status/1354764018288893952?s=19

am_zarathustra

History Queen wrote: »

LC 2020 results finally coming out

https://twitter.com/emma_okelly/status/1354764018288893952?s=19

Oh the stats on this will be interesting! Wonder will it push towards or away from the desire for predicted grades