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The way forward for LC2021

History Queen

I'm interested in the views of other teachers as to what should happen to assess the work of LC2021 students. With growing calls for cancellation of the exams and predicted grades, I fear we are sleep walking in to a repeat of last year's debacle.

My personal view is the exams should go ahead as scheduled but perhaps a further review of papers to allow for more choice should happen, suggestions submitted from subject associations maybe?

As regards projects/orals/practicals I can only speak to my own subjects. In History I feel the project should go ahead as planned.

What do others think?

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shesty

There was a suggestion during last Thursday's Dail debate that all sides in the education row go into a "tunnel" and don't come out until the issue is sorted.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/minister-urged-by-government-tds-to-enter-media-blackout-on-reopening-special-schools-1.4464685

I completely disagree with you on keeping "the rest" home til summer. Primary school kids are not "doing fine" learning at home and lumped on top of last year's mess, it would be completely and totally detrimental to them to be physically out of school for the next 8 months.

At a push, they may need to be closed til Easter. Based on the current trajectory of numbers and assuming it continues, there would have to be an absolutely cast iron reason for closures until Easter, that is made obvious to us all based on very strong factual information. The push back is starting already, and in the UK too. Once was enough for prolonged closures. Online learning is not a substitution for the real thing.

https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2021/0125/1191847-schools-coronavirus-ireland/

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-pressure-grows-on-pm-to-reopen-schools-amid-warning-children-are-pandemics-forgotten-victims-12198112

am_zarathustra

Assuming everyone cops and does what they are being asked to do numbers will naturally drop. I'd recommend everyone start asking questions when they see people breaking rules, compliance in the populations it the variable we can control. Vaccines will arrive at the rate dictated by the companies and the virus will mutate, slowly or quickly depending on our behaviour. Most people when directly asked will modify behaviour, even as simple as asking someone to stand further back from you, as I had to do in the que for my shopping today, might mean they don't do it the next time!

Contact tracing need ato be up and running before any return to education, once that's done the epidemiologist and icus will need to figure out what level is acceptable! I'm dying to get back in the class too!

Rosita

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Assuming everyone cops and does what they are being asked to do numbers will naturally drop.

I think we are past the stage of it being judged simply by numbers. Numbers-wise, if we keep progressing (and admittedly the last couple of figures were weekenders), we will soon be at the point where we were when we were still in school in October. But there seems no appetite to take any chances.

My sense is that we are in a very different place where they are really concerned about variants and/or are, without saying it, more or less driving for zero covid.

I would be amazed if LCs were back this side of mid-term. Why, when they are locking down so much, would they bring anyone back to school for the sake of 10 school days? Obviously there was a political reason for the "schools are safe, schools are safe" mantra but they have now sidelined the Minister for Ed and the fact that schools have closed makes that chant less relevant.

I'd imagine by that stage numbers will be fairly low but like I said we seem not to be solely judging by numbers anymore. I think they want this to be the last of it so keeping the foot on the pedal might be the strategy and that's fair enough.

micks_address

Rosita wrote: »

I think we are past the stage of it being judged simply by numbers. Numbers-wise, if we keep progressing (and admittedly the last couple of figures were weekenders), we will soon be at the point where we were when we were still in school in October. But there seems no appetite to take any chances.

My sense is that we are in a very different place where they are really concerned about variants and/or are, without saying it, more or less driving for zero covid.

I would be amazed if LCs were back this side of mid-term. Why, when they are locking down so much, would they bring anyone back to school for the sake of 10 school days? Obviously there was a political reason for the "schools are safe, schools are safe" mantra but they have now sidelined the Minister for Ed and the fact that schools have closed makes that chant less relevant.

I'd imagine by that stage numbers will be fairly low but like I said we seem not to be solely judging by numbers anymore. I think they want this to be the last of it so keeping the foot on the pedal might be the strategy and that's fair enough.

Leo on Claire Byrne suggesting order will be special needs then exam classes along with rest of primary and non exam post primary at home. I think the big problem for government is 1000 people will have died from covid in January due to increased social activity leading up to and including Christmas. It will take the month of February for pressure on hospitals to ease. I don’t think anyone wants a repeat of January at any cost

snor

I think the real issue is the new variants. We have no idea how they will behave in the school setting. If they are 30% more transmissible, as reports suggest, we could be in trouble. The phased approach suggested will Allow us to monitor infection rates with a smaller cohort in the confined setting of a school first. Have a LC child and am a pp teacher - dying to get back to school but have to admit, the new variants are making me nervous.

am_zarathustra

If the varients are potentially even up to 70% more transmissible then we need to be extra cautious. This can be done by halving class size and staggering kids return. Having them all in does seem ridiculous but time, density, ventilation and masks are the factors we can control. Halving class size would be a start I feel, 2m, windows open but give the kids some contact time.

Not all kids will do ok at home, I've lost count of the number of students I've had emailing and pming me because their stressed, can't manage their own time, are in bits emotionally or live in environments where it's simply not safe, emotionally or physically. They maintain contact because we have seen them recently, but give a 15 year old almost 9 months (if talking Sept) and these kids will have lost those relationships and they may not be recoverable.

am_zarathustra

Oh and I'll be wearing an n95 in the classroom too!

Wombatman

Ministers optimistic Leaving Cert exams will go ahead this year.

Second-level teachers’ union and student representatives are due to resume talks on alternative options to the Leaving Cert exams today.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/ministers-optimistic-leaving-cert-exams-will-go-ahead-this-year-1.4468609

Treppen

Wombatman wrote: »

Ministers optimistic Leaving Cert exams will go ahead this year.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/ministers-optimistic-leaving-cert-exams-will-go-ahead-this-year-1.4468609

ASTI says it's still a viable option also.

Even if Unions and Department are in 100% agreement I doubt they'll get any respite from the stressed students looking for alternatives.

km79

http://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1354385483653140480

French Toast

A traditional LC in June is definitely still a possibility. However, are we now just going through a cycle of Levels 3-4-5?

Strict lockdown now until March. Cases drop to ~200 daily, great, 3-4 weeks then of slacker rules leading to an inevitable rise in cases. Lockdown announced again in May, all of a sudden the traditional LC seems like madness.

I suppose the vaccine will change the outlook of the situation.

carr62

Ah I really hope the exams don't happen. My LC student has really suffered this year. Since starting 6th year we have had a death in family and a serious illness. Due to that he might not be able to go back when school opens to protect his dad. We also have awful WiFi....he regularly complains that he's kicked off the zoom classes and it's difficult to pick up as they've moved on a bit by time he can reconnect. I'm waiting nervously for an announcement. Seriously worried how he will take it if he's got to sit exams he's just not ready for.

micks_address

carr62 wrote: »

Ah I really hope the exams don't happen. My LC student has really suffered this year. Since starting 6th year we have had a death in family and a serious illness. Due to that he might not be able to go back when school opens to protect his dad. We also have awful WiFi....he regularly complains that he's kicked off the zoom classes and it's difficult to pick up as they've moved on a bit by time he can reconnect. I'm waiting nervously for an announcement. Seriously worried how he will take it if he's got to sit exams he's just not ready for.

our fella is really hoping for calculated grades to - even though we've talked about the challenges' with them and the lack of assessment for teachers to base grades on. He is trying to do honor's maths and has put a lot of work in doing grinds etc last year and did a test back around Halloween where he just barely passed. So what would his teacher predict his grade to be? I've spoken to a few teachers re maths and they say it generally comes together in and around the time of the mocks and a student could be tracking for 65 percent or so in the summer..we were waiting for the mocks to see what he should do in terms of potentially dropping back to ordinary level as he wouldn't want to risk doing higher and failing it. Even with excellent online support and fulltime classes i know he is hedging his bets on calculated grades. Hard to be too hard on him though as he's stressed like everyone else with the isolation of not mixing with friends etc. I just don't want an announcement in march that its all systems go for June exams and then he has a oh feic moment that he took his foot off the gas for January and February.

Treppen

micks_address wrote: »

our fella is really hoping for calculated grades to - even though we've talked about the challenges' with them and the lack of assessment for teachers to base grades on. He is trying to do honor's maths and has put a lot of work in doing grinds etc last year and did a test back around Halloween where he just barely passed. So what would his teacher predict his grade to be? I've spoken to a few teachers re maths and they say it generally comes together in and around the time of the mocks and a student could be tracking for 65 percent or so in the summer..we were waiting for the mocks to see what he should do in terms of potentially dropping back to ordinary level as he wouldn't want to risk doing higher and failing it. Even with excellent online support and fulltime classes i know he is hedging his bets on calculated grades. Hard to be too hard on him though as he's stressed like everyone else with the isolation of not mixing with friends etc. I just don't want an announcement in march that its all systems go for June exams and then he has a oh feic moment that he took his foot off the gas for January and February.

He should be assuming that it is all systems go.

Even at the very least if it is predicted grades I suspect the Minister will want/hope for Mocks to go ahead (but they won't be mentioning Mocks as it has nothing to do with the departmtent and is a school local arrangement thing!).

There is actually a lot of time to bring 6th years back to school between now and June (July or August even!). The first order of the day for any school starting back up with 6th years will be Mocks. I can't really see how some schools wont be doing them and then hope that predicted grades wont be a thing, continuous assessment of monthly weekly tests can only go so far.

If anything I would suggest anxious parents contact the school and enquire what the status is on mocks.

We're gunning for them in our school and the students and parents all know that.

Tl;Dr :- Your child needs to keep studying for a multitude of reasons other than the traditional Leaving Cert.

micks_address

You tell him it’s all systems go

History Queen

Seriously can't see exams being cancelled. There has been adjustments made to papers already and probably will be more if needed. If you have LC students in your life tell them to ignore the speculation (difficult I know) and prepare for exams. Also reassure them that there's lots of time and marking schemes will be adjusted accordingly if needs be.

rainbowtrout

micks_address wrote: »

You tell him it’s all systems go

Well what I've been saying to the my students and I've been saying it since September. Assume the LC is going ahead unless you are told otherwise. If it's going ahead the work has to be done, if it goes to predicted grades, I'll be judging you on the work done and the grades achieved in that work. If you are going to college next year at least some of your subjects will be relevant and the work needs to be done or you won't be able to keep up in college. Whatever the outcome, they do need to do the work.

km79

History Queen wrote: »

Seriously can't see exams being cancelled. There has been adjustments made to papers already and probably will be more if needed. If you have LC students in your life tell them to ignore the speculation (difficult I know) and prepare for exams. Also reassure them that there's lots of time and marking schemes will be adjusted accordingly if needs be.

http://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1354420252445208579

Predictive grades mentioned by Leo
No going back now

History Queen

km79 wrote: »

http://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1354420252445208579

Predictive grades mentioned by Leo
No going back now

He's an absolute clown.

Wombatman

They keep saying the traditional LC exam will go ahead, but that and predicted grades are not mutually exclusive.

History Queen

Wombatman wrote: »

They keep saying the traditional LC exam will go ahead, but that and predicted grades are not mutually exclusive.

As in the option of either or?

am_zarathustra

Predicted grades would be based on such nonsense this year. I guarantee a lot of people asking for them will be unhappy with their grades.

The other glaring issue is that a course needs to be mostly finished. No one in college assumed I needed to be taught to differentiate or the standard deviation. This information is assumed from the LC or equivalent. Regardless of what happens 80% of courses should be done by June. In my subject the alterations are more than generous, the kids will be grand. Honestly, a couple are poor spatially so an option for long questions will actually play to their strengths.

Higher level maths is a funny one, a lot of kids take it that shouldn't because of the bonus points or as it's a course requirement. If it's a requirement and you are majorly struggling to stay at the level then you may need to consider if that course is for you. As for the bonus, the time spend on other subjects might actually give more of a points lift than struggling through HL.

Rosita

I think if there is conversation taking place about the LC right now then I would expect that exams won't happen. If exams are expected to happen as normal what is there to discuss?

I think we had assumed that 2021 would progress without the issues around variants and some sense that a vaccine would arrive and not at a glacial pace that looks like happening. The ground has shifted significantly.

When you hear Varadker speculating about international travel for the rest of the year, and other people such as Luke O'Neill suggesting that all measures of restriction will have to remain in place even when the vaccine is widespread, Tomás Ryan talking about a 'fourth wave', the more debateable question might be the status of the 2022 or 2023 LC never mind the one that might have happened this June.

History Queen

Rosita wrote: »

I think if there is conversation taking place about the LC right now then I would expect that exams won't happen. If exams are expected to happen as normal what is there to discuss?

I think we had assumed that 2021 would progress without the issues around variants and some sense that a vaccine would arrive and not at a glacial pace that looks like happening. The ground has shifted significantly.

When you hear Varadker speculating about international travel for the rest of the year, and other people such as Luke O'Neill suggesting that all measures of restriction will have to remain in place even when the vaccine is widespread, Tomás Ryan talking about a 'fourth wave', the more debateable question might be the status of the 2022 or 2023 LC never mind the one that might have happened this June.

Do you really think so? I would've thought that they are discussing orals/practicals/projects. How to run exam centres, what ifs for a student/invigilator getting Covid. Whether more changes to exam papers are needed and how to make that happen etc.

Rosita

am_zarathustra wrote: »

The time spend on other subjects might actually give more of a points lift than struggling through HL.

That may be true, but I think many students feel they almost cannot afford to take OL at a subject that gives nearly a 30% marks bonus for just passing. They might get little out of it and find it a time-consuming struggle but there's the fear that someone else in exactly the same boat who might not be great will get over the line for 40% and get that bonus. The rewards of the 'time spent' on other subjects is comparatively relatively abstract. It's a hideously exaggerated bonus and will always have a magnetic attraction for many.

Rosita

History Queen wrote: »

Do you really think so? I would've thought that they are discussing orals/practicals/projects. How to run exam centres, what ifs for a student/invigilator getting Covid. Whether more changes to exam papers are needed and how to make that happen etc.

What you say would make sense but I really get the vibe that it's up for grabs at the moment. Look at the change in tone from the "I'm passionate about education" Taoiseach recently compared to recent months when schools were "the last thing to close", and even with a six-week Level 5 situation Varadker is giving us the waffly "phased basis" for going back to school. Now the Labour education spokesperson looking for estimated Orals and Practicals. All things considered I think it's getting increasingly doubtful.

History Queen

Rosita wrote: »

What you say would make sense but I really get the vibe that it's up for grabs at the moment. Look at the change in tone from the "I'm passionate about education" Taoiseach recently compared to recent months when schools were "the last thing to close", and even with a six-week Level 5 situation Varadker is giving us the waffly "phased basis" for going back to school. Now the Labour education spokesperson looking for estimated Orals and Practicals. All things considered I think it's getting increasingly doubtful.

I see what you mean. God I hope you're wrong! (No offence!)

Rosita

History Queen wrote: »

I see what you mean. God I hope you're wrong! (No offence!)

I hope I'm wrong too!

clunked

Rosita wrote: »

What you say would make sense but I really get the vibe that it's up for grabs at the moment. Look at the change in tone from the "I'm passionate about education" Taoiseach recently compared to recent months when schools were "the last thing to close", and even with a six-week Level 5 situation Varadker is giving us the waffly "phased basis" for going back to school. Now the Labour education spokesperson looking for estimated Orals and Practicals. All things considered I think it's getting increasingly doubtful.

Crayon O' Riordain is pandering to a lobby that wants to have it both ways. And we all know how successful Labour ministers of education have been. He's also keeping a eye on whatever the hard left are spouting. What is best educationally isn't at the forefront of his thoughts.

micks_address

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well what I've been saying to the my students and I've been saying it since September. Assume the LC is going ahead unless you are told otherwise. If it's going ahead the work has to be done, if it goes to predicted grades, I'll be judging you on the work done and the grades achieved in that work. If you are going to college next year at least some of your subjects will be relevant and the work needs to be done or you won't be able to keep up in college. Whatever the outcome, they do need to do the work.

Of course that's the message we are giving him but its hard for them not to be distracted by all the noise of other potential outcomes. I think one of the things people don't talk about much is how none of the close contacts of confirmed cases have been tested in the last month - its safe to assume the actual incidence of the virus is much higher than the daily reported figured. This is why government have taken the decision to lock down till march.

Its also interesting how last week it was schools are safe environments to now.. we need to assess schools in the context of the new variants..