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What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

RyanthePirate

I would like to see a Boards.ie Consensus.

Economists agree that immigration has a net positive on the economy and this immigration is surely a wonderful thing for the county.

Agree/Disagree?

Mod:

I have updated the OP of this thread with a list of threadbanned users, I would advise posters to check on this before posting in the thread again or a forum sanction will be imposed for breaching same.

If you want to discuss your threadban feel free to PM the banning mod (or myself if you can't remember who that is and I'll point you in the right direction).

Threadbanned Users:
DelaneyIn
TheCitizen
V8 Interceptor
Hamachi - lifted 14/03/22, reinstated 28/03/22
Effects
biko
Kivaro
Eric Cartman
Swindled
Gradius
RobbieTheRobber - lifted 25/08/21 - reinstated 27/08/21
Cordell - lifted 16/08/21
Gangster Yippin
blindjustice
Eircom_Sucks
TomSweeney
Wojtek the Bear
Cordell
klaz
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Kivaro

And with these very interesting posts, this is how the topic of multiculturalism evolves .......

CruelCoin

Wibbs wrote: »

There are differences and some can be quite large. Bosnian Muslims would be quite different to Saudi Muslims for example. The former are a lot more progressive for a start. It can vary over time too. Go back 60 years to Constantinople and you would see very few veiled women. You'd probably see more Irish women wearing headscarves. In Beirut at the same time you could have seen women in miniskirts. Same with Iran and Iraq and even Afghanistan in the cities.

Silly question maybe, but we know that entire countries/regions are dominated by certain sects of islam.

Is there any data showing socio-economic difference between the shia and sunni and wahhabists, etc?

I mean, we can categorically say that mennonites (christians) are seriously less well off than catholics or protestants, for example.

One eyed Jack

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

OEJ to be fair there were issues around school admissions policies in Ireland. I spoke of this in the thread earlier. The government has acted on this very issue.

The government has removed the baptismal barrier and the school waiting list system. Which has hugely obvious negative connotations for immigrant getting places in local or desirable schools. I mean surely this one isn't even just me trying to argue my side.

I know we spoke of it earlier, and I pointed out that those barriers you spoke of were more of an issue for Irish parents than immigrants. I also pointed out that the siblings rule was more of a barrier than either of the first two in schools which were oversubscribed.

It’s not just you that makes the argument about the baptism barrier and waiting lists as the reasons why immigrants living in socioeconomically deprived areas choose to enrol their children in local schools which are categorised as DEIS schools, as opposed to schools which are categorised as desirable schools in other areas among Irish parents living in the same socioeconomically deprived areas as immigrants.

The arguments about ‘barriers’ are predicated upon assuming that immigrants have no agency of their own, because the thought of immigrants wanting nothing to do with them is a foreign concept for some people.

Wibbs

I'm certainly not against Muslims as a group. I know a few and bloody sound they are too and a couple are quite religious with it.

My first position has always been throughout the thread that I quite simply don't believe modern multiculturalism works for quite the number of demographics and the more people that are involved the more problems come along and the positives are extremely vague and limited when we look deeper at it. I believe because we've been told it's a positive time and time again, mainly by nations that have had to deal with it because of historical circumstances and are trying to paper over the cracks, we mostly believe it as an Established Truth(tm) and don't look below the veil(no pun) of that. Established Truths are present in all cultures and need to be constantly questioned because when we stop asking questions we assume the answer and nothing changes. Never mind that a lot of Established Truths of the past turned out to be very wrong, even horrors and only by being questioned did anything change.

As far as host countries go, IMHO they actually suffer less for the most part, save for the lower socioeconomic natives who are usually at the sharp end. The middle classes can avoid the negatives almost entirely, like many social ills. It's actually among the migrant demographics and their descendants who suffer from this politic the most. It's not a majority of White people protesting BLM and the like. And what White people do are usually middle class who go home to the burbs of an evening. They may feel they're doing the right things and being supportive and fair enough, they're doing something, but they're also part of the problem.

Kivaro

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

You love me really Kivaro, you'll probably name your next kid after me.
Roberta if it's a girl.

Actually, I thought your last post about religion was quite good. If you stick with that process, then you may well be a good dissenting voice on the thread.

[Deleted User]

Kivaro wrote: »

And here's us thinking you were sailing away into the sunset with those departing shots ..... many pages ago.

You love me really Kivaro, you'll probably name your next kid after me.
Roberta if it's a girl.

[Deleted User]

Wibbs wrote: »

Here's one on British born Muslim women.

Muslim women are the most economically disadvantaged group in the UK, according to a report issued by the UK House of Commons.

Another showing Muslims are the most disadvantaged group by faith.

It found Muslims had the highest rate of unemployment, the poorest health, the most disability and fewest educational qualifications. In most respects Muslim women fared worse than Muslim men.

Now the latter is an old report. Here's a more recent one from three years ago. And another from 2016 Unemployment rates among Muslims are more than double that of any other community in the UK Here's a breakdown by faith in London.

And as for integration among these more disadvantaged groups And frankly I'm not surprised. I'd be pissed off too and looking for answers and a semblance of stability in community. Among the younger generations they know they've been sold a pup with "multiculturalism". They know they'll never be quite British, or French, or German enough. No wonder some go radical. As I said I might in their shoes. And much of the same kinda things goes for Black Africans in Europe.

Look wibbs im not here to defend everything about Muslims I have consistently argued against religious influence. But using an article about Muslim women being more likely to be stay at home mothers than other faiths is hardly surprising. In fact due to the mysoginistic nature of that religion its to be expected.
Another article is about Muslims being disadvantaged in looking for jobs.

I'm reading through the Muslim Council of the UK report now from 2016.

Ideally I'd like a multivariate study by an independent body to try and understand a bit more of the detail around muslims in the UK.

Kivaro

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Anyway the sound of my posts have echoed around the chambers of this thread long enough now.

Good luck in the next election lads, I very much hope whatever anti immigrant political party you decide to support in that election is as successful as the last.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I am a lone voice for one side of an argument when I leave the argument that will leave only a single side of the argument discussing the point with its self if that is not an echo chamber or hollow debate then what is it?

Anyway I'm off to live my multicultural life with my multicultural wife and children where just so you know we are not living in some radicalised enclave in Ireland.

And here's us thinking you were sailing away into the sunset with those departing shots ..... many pages ago.

Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

OK so let's pretend we are discussing this in good faith. And lets just use our closest neighbour the UK.
Do you know of a study on the socio economic status of British born Muslims. That would be a very good place for us to start looking at the question you are asking.
I will be honest apart from a Muslim council report from 2011 I can't find anything like this to begin looking at the data.

Here's one on British born Muslim women.

Muslim women are the most economically disadvantaged group in the UK, according to a report issued by the UK House of Commons.

Another showing Muslims are the most disadvantaged group by faith.

It found Muslims had the highest rate of unemployment, the poorest health, the most disability and fewest educational qualifications. In most respects Muslim women fared worse than Muslim men.

Now the latter is an old report. Here's a more recent one from three years ago. And another from 2016 Unemployment rates among Muslims are more than double that of any other community in the UK Here's a breakdown by faith in London.

And as for integration among these more disadvantaged groups And frankly I'm not surprised. I'd be pissed off too and looking for answers and a semblance of stability in community. Among the younger generations they know they've been sold a pup with "multiculturalism". They know they'll never be quite British, or French, or German enough. No wonder some go radical. As I said I might in their shoes. And much of the same kinda things goes for Black Africans in Europe.

[Deleted User]

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Ahh Rob come on! It’s an easily answered question, all you have to do is think of any country in the Western world where immigrants don’t tend to live in socioeconomically deprived communities. It’s not a chicken and egg question - immigrants tend to live in areas which are already socioeconomically deprived because they’re among their own people.

There’s no suggestion that ALL immigrants live in areas of socioeconomic deprivation, rather that they tend to live in socioeconomically deprived areas. Can you think of a country in the Western world where this isn’t the case? Your neighbour doesn’t actually demonstrate the opposite of that trend. You were able to cite evidence from the national census earlier in the thread, that would give a fuller picture of a trend in Irish society -

Census figures raise concerns of ethnic segregation in schools

OEJ to be fair there were issues around school admissions policies in Ireland. I spoke of this in the thread earlier. The government has acted on this very issue.

The government has removed the baptismal barrier and the school waiting list system. Which has hugely obvious negative connotations for immigrant getting places in local or desirable schools. I mean surely this one isn't even just me trying to argue my side.

Justin Credible Darts

Wibbs wrote: »

There are differences and some can be quite large. Bosnian Muslims would be quite different to Saudi Muslims for example. The former are a lot more progressive for a start. It can vary over time too. Go back 60 years to Constantinople and you would see very few veiled women. You'd probably see more Irish women wearing headscarves. In Beirut at the same time you could have seen women in miniskirts. Same with Iran and Iraq and even Afghanistan in the cities.

I get that, there are different type and cultures with a shared religion, my point is Robbie thinks all the poor muslims will somehow act different in Ireland than what they would do in the UK.

There is no evidence to suggest otherwise, all he can offer is an opinion.

Wibbs

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

I am still waiting to hear how immigrant muslims in Ireland would differ from immigrant muslims in the UK and other european countries

There are differences and some can be quite large. Bosnian Muslims would be quite different to Saudi Muslims for example. The former are a lot more progressive for a start. It can vary over time too. Go back 60 years to Constantinople and you would see very few veiled women. You'd probably see more Irish women wearing headscarves. In Beirut at the same time you could have seen women in miniskirts. Same with Iran and Iraq and even Afghanistan in the cities.

[Deleted User]

Wibbs wrote: »

You're assuming I'm not arguing in good faith, which is interesting. A provable reality based on statistics is not a fail. It's an acknowledgement of a fact. It's what makes for good questions, which are required if we seek good answers that aren't simplistic feel good optimism. The same facts lay bare the empty promise of "diversity" and multiculturalism for some demographics and how it has failed them and the host countries and over generations with it.

Most certainly they are factors. People who happen to be Muslim coming here through the usual legal channels to secure a job they are qualified for, are a very different demographic than Muslims coming here often illegally or quasi legally underqualified and without a job. Goes for Africans or any other group too.

OK so let's pretend we are discussing this in good faith. And lets just use our closest neighbour the UK.
Do you know of a study on the socio economic status of British born Muslims. That would be a very good place for us to start looking at the question you are asking.
I will be honest apart from a Muslim council report from 2011 I can't find anything like this to begin looking at the data.

One eyed Jack

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Can you find me any European multicultural nation where those of African and ME origins(and nomadic peoples) don't tend to cluster at the lower rungs of the socioeconomic ladder and don't tend to set up urban enclaves?

Is this the question you want me to answer?

Its really not an answerable question though is it.
First answer me this do all Muslims live in these so called enclaves in europe?

If they don't then where do all the Muslim people who don't live in them live?

You want me to find you places in Europe where something doesn't exist.
My Muslim neighbour does not live in an enclave and is not lower socioeconomic well at least not judging by the house prices around here.

Ahh Rob come on! It’s an easily answered question, all you have to do is think of any country in the Western world where immigrants don’t tend to live in socioeconomically deprived communities. It’s not a chicken and egg question - immigrants tend to live in areas which are already socioeconomically deprived because they’re among their own people.

There’s no suggestion that ALL immigrants live in areas of socioeconomic deprivation, rather that they tend to live in socioeconomically deprived areas. Can you think of a country in the Western world where this isn’t the case? Your neighbour doesn’t actually demonstrate the opposite of that trend. You were able to cite evidence from the national census earlier in the thread, that would give a fuller picture of a trend in Irish society -

Census figures raise concerns of ethnic segregation in schools

Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

But aren't you setting me up for a fall with that question wibbs?

You're assuming I'm not arguing in good faith, which is interesting. A provable reality based on statistics is not a fail. It's an acknowledgement of a fact. It's what makes for good questions, which are required if we seek good answers that aren't simplistic feel good optimism. The same facts lay bare the empty promise of "diversity" and multiculturalism for some demographics and how it has failed them and the host countries and over generations with it.

Wouldn't we need to split muslim community into different groups to account for one group being resident for a period of time (and perhaps to have benefited form the host countries better economy and jobs in a country) and the other to account for recent immigrants who we would naturally expect to fall into that the lower socio economic group.

Most certainly they are factors. People who happen to be Muslim coming here through the usual legal channels to secure a job they are qualified for, are a very different demographic than Muslims coming here often illegally or quasi legally underqualified and without a job. Goes for Africans or any other group too.

[Deleted User]

Wibbs wrote: »

Please point out one instance where I lied or repeatedly misrepresented something you have written. Good luck with that, though with your powers of misrepresentation....

Actually it is.
You're deflecting again with the enclave stuff.

Wibbs you put the enclave word in the question you asked, not me. You!

[Deleted User]

Wibbs wrote: »

Please point out one instance where I lied or repeatedly misrepresented something you have written. Good luck with that, though with your powers of misrepresentation....

Actually it is.
You're deflecting again with the enclave stuff. I suggested we ignore that for a moment(though I did get into the subject) and answer:

Can you find me any European multicultural nation where those of African and ME origins(and nomadic peoples) don't tend to cluster at the lower rungs of the socioeconomic ladder.

You can't. Statistical facts I'm afraid so you're on a road to nowhere anyway.

Knowing singular or clusters of examples of middle class [insert demographic here] is not reflective of wider demographics. There are plenty of examples of Black African Americans who are highly successful and rich beyond the dreams of avarice. Does this then follow that Black African Americans are not seriously disadvantaged as a group and more likely to be poor, unemployed and in the criminal justice system than White Americans? Of course it doesn't. You may have noticed those BLM marches going on. They aren't doing it for the craic like.

But aren't you setting me up for a fall with that question wibbs?

Wouldn't we need to split muslim community into different groups to account for one group being resident for a period of time (and perhaps to have benefited form the host countries better economy and jobs in a country) and the other to account for recent immigrants who we would naturally expect to fall into that the lower socio economic group.

Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

If I'm lying I am in good company.

Please point out one instance where I lied or repeatedly misrepresented something you have written. Good luck with that, though with your powers of misrepresentation....

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Is this the question you want me to answer?

Its really not an answerable question though is it.

Actually it is.

First answer me this do all Muslims live in these so called enclaves in europe?

If they don't then where do all the Muslim people who don't live in them live?

You want me to find you places in Europe where something doesn't exist.
My Muslim neighbour does not live in an enclave and is not lower socioeconomic well at least not judging by the house prices around here.

You're deflecting again with the enclave stuff. I suggested we ignore that for a moment(though I did get into the subject) and answer:

Can you find me any European multicultural nation where those of African and ME origins(and nomadic peoples) don't tend to cluster at the lower rungs of the socioeconomic ladder.

You can't. Statistical facts I'm afraid so you're on a road to nowhere anyway.

Knowing singular or clusters of examples of middle class [insert demographic here] is not reflective of wider demographics. There are plenty of examples of Black African Americans who are highly successful and rich beyond the dreams of avarice. Does this then follow that Black African Americans are not seriously disadvantaged as a group and more likely to be poor, unemployed and in the criminal justice system than White Americans? Of course it doesn't. You may have noticed those BLM marches going on. They aren't doing it for the craic like.

[Deleted User]

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

I am still waiting to hear how immigrant muslims in Ireland would differ from immigrant muslims in the UK and other european countries

I love to laugh my bollocks off at his reasoning to this.

Hahaha I'm not wasting my time putting any more info up here go fúckin jump.
Where is that quote where I called you racist any way?

Justin Credible Darts

I am still waiting to hear how immigrant muslims in Ireland would differ from immigrant muslims in the UK and other european countries

I love to laugh my bollocks off at his reasoning to this.

Wibbs

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I’m here racking my brain to think of any possible differences... and I really can’t think of any, or why you imagine there might be any differences between Muslims in the UK, and Muslims in Ireland, or what those differences might be. I expect the outcomes will be exactly the same as their UK counterparts - they integrate into any society only as much as they want to, but for the most part keep to themselves among their own communities, which is what a multicultural society actually is in reality.

Actually there can be differences alright OEJ. Generalisation alert of course, but a Muslim professional from say Malaysia will be different in outlook to a less well educated Muslim from say Pakistan. That is not to say Pakistani Muslims are less well educated. I personally know one who has more degrees than a thermometer.

[Deleted User]

Wibbs wrote: »

I answered your deflection about enclaves.

Can you find me any European multicultural nation where those of African and ME origins(and nomadic peoples) don't tend to cluster at the lower rungs of the socioeconomic ladder and don't tend to set up urban enclaves?

Is this the question you want me to answer?

Its really not an answerable question though is it.
First answer me this do all Muslims live in these so called enclaves in europe?

If they don't then where do all the Muslim people who don't live in them live?

You want me to find you places in Europe where something doesn't exist.
My Muslim neighbour does not live in an enclave and is not lower socioeconomic well at least not judging by the house prices around here.

Wibbs

For clarity given I'm being quoted arseways:

Me. Earlier. wrote: »

And I note you still haven't answered the question I posed. Can you find me any European multicultural nation where those of African and ME origins(and nomadic peoples) don't tend to cluster at the lower rungs of the socioeconomic ladder and don't tend to set up urban enclaves? So why should we seek to import another more complex underclass on top of our own?

I have fully agreed that racism on the part of the native White population is a huge factor in that(though it's not the only factor, internal cultural differences can be at play too), but again how are we supposed to magically make things different?

I'm clearly stating that one of the reasons and it's a big one some demographics are clustered at the bottom of multicultural societies is because of racism on the part of the native White population. I am not saying those against immigration or multiculturalism are racists. No doubt some are and some are not, but I did not say that. Again you either can't seem to read what others are writing or are misrepresenting them.

And again you avoided the first part of that.

[Deleted User]

Wibbs wrote: »

Now you're outright lying I'm afraid, or you can't read. It's one or the other. 1) I see no quotes of my posts on the matter and 2) well if you did quote them it would be quite clear to anyone reading that you're deliberately misrepresenting what I actually wrote and now are clumsily trying to goad posters with stuff like this:

If I'm lying I am in good company.

Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Nor you mine

I answered your deflection about enclaves.

Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I have linked now twice to Wibbs comments where he accuses those of opposing immigration of being racist.

Now you're outright lying I'm afraid, or you can't read. It's one or the other. 1) I see no quotes of my posts on the matter and 2) well if you did quote them it would be quite clear to anyone reading that you're deliberately misrepresenting what I actually wrote and now are clumsily trying to goad posters with stuff like this:

Are you white, do you have a problem with immigration?

Then wibbs implied a huge part in that is racism

[Deleted User]

Wibbs wrote: »

And you still never answered my question...

Nor you mine

Wibbs

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Take that up with Wibbs who pointed out that "racism" is a "huge factor" in the issue most people have with immigration. :rolleyes:

You appear to have a problem with reading what is actually written and I'm not sure if it's deliberate or not. I said racism is a huge factor in why some demographics fair much worse than others. That was what was being discussed NOT racism is why people may have a problem with immigration. Big difference. So roll eyes all you like.

Another perfect example of you reading what you want to read, or misrepresenting what others have written.

You me and everyone in this thread at times refuses to debate points, none of us are under any obligation.
Have you got a problem with that?

It's called debating in good faith. A reasonable expectation in any debate. I have a problem with avoidance, deflection and misrepresentation because someone can't argue the points.

And you still never answered my question...

[Deleted User]

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

again if you actually READ the posts on here you would have read where I have no issue with any color race etc coming here if they are willing to work.

my issue is with unskilled people who offer nothing and end up leeching of the system. I will say it AGAIN since you clearly are not grasping it, it is a finacial reason not a racial one.

and for the record, i am in a mixed race marriage, so dont give me that horsesh1t that because i am white i must be stereotypical.

Go take your agenda somewhere else.

Take your offence up with Wibbs he pointed out that one of the main reason the white national population was opposed to immigration was racism.
Why are you asking me about what wibbs said?

Where is this post in which I called you racist?

I have linked now twice to Wibbs comments where he accuses those of opposing immigration of being racist. Do you need the comments a third time to understand who posted it.

Justin Credible Darts

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Are you white, do you have a problem with immigration?

Then wibbs implied a huge part in that is racism

again if you actually READ the posts on here you would have read where I have no issue with any color race etc coming here if they are willing to work.

my issue is with unskilled people who offer nothing and end up leeching of the system. I will say it AGAIN since you clearly are not grasping it, it is a finacial reason not a racial one.

and for the record, i am in a mixed race marriage, so dont give me that horsesh1t that because i am white i must be stereotypical.

Go take your agenda somewhere else.