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Who Watches the Watchmen (Our Chit Chat Thread)

Kintarō Hattori

I was surprised to see that we won't have a general chat thread. Sometimes what you want to say doesn't really fit in any of the existing topics. Hopefully this becomes useful.

So for me I'm intrigued by the Lip watches Wibbs posted about and am now thinking about getting one of those.

*Title courtesy of Spocker

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Wibbs

blue5000 wrote: »

Slightly off topic, but I've heard fake tyres are being produced in China now too.

Years ago I read a book about the Italian mafia and their business interests beyond the obvious stuff and fakes were a huge part of it. Fashion brands were a biggie and it got so bad that when one brand ran out of stock they went to the mafia to get it and put on genuine labels. Worse than that the fake stuff was apparently better made. Another episode concerned a dressmaker who was asked to make up a couture dress for a mafia boss. He assumed it was for this guy's wife or mistress, but he made it and a few weeks his daughter while watching the telly spotted the dress on some minor Hollywood starlet. Fake car parts were common enough, some even finding their way into manufacturing, but way more worrying was fake aircraft parts. :eek: The fakes of all kinds were made in Italy, or China or in Eastern Europe. China appeared to have strong trading and transit links with Italy

Seems to be a lot more interest in this forum compared to 12 months ago. If there's any new people on here that are thinking about buying a watch for the first time and are unsure don't be afraid to ask. I started out with very little knowledge, I'm always learning, and I have to emphasize I am not an expert of any sort.

What I'm trying to say is most of us who have been here for a few years are a helpful bunch, don't be afraid to join in.

Blanchy90 wrote: »

Its scary how good some of those reps are

I just don't understand wearing a fake watch, I have no problem with a homage that is near identical but without the logo. That said my seiko great while dial says seiko on it even though its aftermarket ( I got it with parts and didn't know it was am at the time). But my mod is a mod and not trying to pass as a genuine watch

It comes up quite a lot in some of the watch modding fb groups using aftermarket dials that have the brand name on it. Its a tough one with mods, at what point is it not a seiko / vostok anymore? Is it any better using a genuine seiko dial on a mod made of all after market parts than using a aftermarket dial on an otherwise standard seiko

Homages and replicas are a grey area in a lot of ways. If we look at cars you can go and buy a replica 30's Bugatti race car from an outfit in Argentina Pur Sang. Identical down to the last nut, bolt and badge, save for plain bearings and a more efficient firing order(and you can even order them). Parts are fully interchangeable with originals.

They're truly "in house" too, because of Argentina's strict import laws. They even make the tyres on site. Another outfit in the UK will build you a replica of a Ferrari SWB down to the last nut and bolt, using authentic Ferrari running gear in a new handmade body.There's a guy in New Zealand that hand makes Ferrari 250 GTO's along the same lines. Apparently because of the crazy value of the originals and difficulty in getting insurance a few of the ones seen racing at festivals are the replicas.

Now they're old cars long out of production is one take on things, but taking that to watches, would it be OK to make a mm perfect replica of an original Panerai from the 30's, or a Longines Hour Angle, or a 60s Big Crown Rolex, or Blancpain 50 fathoms? Personally I say no, outside of a one off personal project, that like the replica cars above can be easily proven to not be originals, but it's at least debatable.

And yes I'd buy that Bugatti in a heartbeat.

They also do a replica of a pre war Alfa.

Thirdfox

Just don't ever crash in a vintage car

https://youtu.be/TikJC0x65X0

Shocking that "vintage" in this context can mean late 90s or early 00s.

Oh and as for "fakes" or non-oem parts I did hear from a guy who works at Rolls-Royce that they sometimes would find non-oem engine parts in engines during overhauls - so I guess it's good that the non-genuine quality is there and it's not just looking the part

banie01

Thirdfox wrote: »

Oh and as for "fakes" or non-oem parts I did hear from a guy who works at Rolls-Royce that they sometimes would find non-oem engine parts in engines during overhauls - so I guess it's good that the non-genuine quality is there and it's not just looking the part

In RR cars? Or aviation engines?
Big difference in risk and regulations there like!

Thirdfox

banie01 wrote: »

In RR cars? Or aviation engines?
Big difference in risk and regulations there like!

Aircraft!

banie01

Thirdfox wrote: »

Aircraft!

The thoughts of dodgy parts on a FADEC engine designed to sub-mm tolerances and with bleeding edge ceramic and metallurgy needed...
Now that is truly terrifying!

I know RR have an extremely integrated and well managed system for managing the Trent engines.
Spares and all servicing done via them and all parts digitally tracked and managed.

Now that said, OEM parts entering the maintenance chain for most engines is quite common as the parts are often manufactured under contract and the OEMs then engage in a secondary but still highly regulated market, aswell as the trade in 2nd hand and reclaimed parts that is also a huge business.
The primary value in most 2nd jets is their engines, so hopefully it's more a case of correct parts fitted, not matching the manifested parts on record.

[Deleted User]

The Americans have an ongoing problem with fake components in military aircraft, missile systems etc.

Wibbs

Thirdfox wrote: »

Just don't ever crash in a vintage car

Well you'd be boned in the Bugatti. One reason racing drivers were against seatbelts in those days was they preferred to be thrown from the car in the event of an accident as they considered that more survivable. :eek: The 250 GTO/SWB ten to have full roll cages and racing harnesses fitted so you'd be well bruised after a smack, but much more survivable.

Trigger Happy

Thirdfox wrote: »

Just don't ever crash in a vintage car

I used to be a proud owner of a 1972 MGB GT. It was a great motor, I loved it.

But one day I hit the brakes and nothing happened.
No redundancy in the brake lines in those cars.

Have not been in a vintage since!

Fitz II

There is a strong supply of fake and counterfeit Dental materials like filling materials and Dental Implants. The quality of this stuff is pure muck. I have seen it and it comes with all the correct safety marks, and it sorts works ok, but it doesn't last. Only way is to ensure you get your supplies from one of the reputable resellers.

Wibbs

Trigger Happy wrote: »

I used to be a proud owner of a 1972 MGB GT. It was a great motor, I loved it.

Cute car they are. Mad amount of spares availability too. IIRC you can actually build a complete car from new parts.

But one day I hit the brakes and nothing happened.
No redundancy in the brake lines in those cars.

I learned to drive in a Ford Capri and I loved it. Great driving position, lovely steering feel, bugger all power mind you. Though this was a positive as the brakes were... interesting. Like anything if it's all you know you compensate accordingly. Fast forward a good few years and a few cars later and I had the chance to drive a Capri again. Great nick, very well sorted with all the right parts. After the first time I hit the brakes I came to the conclusion that the brake pedal was actually a switch for the red lights at the back rather than a mechanism for stopping. :eek::D Modern cars have incredible brakes, though there was a near overnight improvement in the 90's on that score.

Some earlier cars had great brakes. A 60's Lotus Elan being one I drove. Oh my god was that thing chuckable and the levels of feel and control were unreal. If you ran over a coin you could tell through the steering if it were heads or tails up. Brakes were also full of feel and stopped you in short order without squirming about. Then again the car weighed about the same as an ant filled with helium so there's that. If you ever get the chance to pedal a well sorted one of them up a twisty road take it with both hands, sublime and makes modern stuff feel like having sex wearing five condoms, in a diving suit, across skype with a bad connection. Still if you hit a hedgehog above 20 kph you're going through the pearly gates. About as safe as a bottle of nitroglycerin in a cement mixer.

Thirdfox

Wibbs wrote: »

Well you'd be boned in the Bugatti. One reason racing drivers were against seatbelts in those days was they preferred to be thrown from the car in the event of an accident as they considered that more survivable. :eek: The 250 GTO/SWB ten to have full roll cages and racing harnesses fitted so you'd be well bruised after a smack, but much more survivable.

You could say the safety feature was that the car safely ensures you won't end up a parapelegic/injured/in pain by giving a nice clean death in event of a serious crash...

That Bel Air car in the video I posted - "cause of death? Dashboard through the head…" - no pain I imagine!

It's an argument for having the best safety feature being a giant spike in the middle of the steering wheel - you know if you crash you die - will encourage people to maintain correct distance, appropriate speeds, don't drink/drive etc.

Oh and not to dump on the Chinese too mich - just saw an amazing video of CNC/EDM machines (which are used to make some watch components) made in China too:
https://www.facebook.com/703947916351167/posts/3837796262966301/

For what it's worth - moulds are used primarily over cnc (less wastage/time/cost) - but I guess it's why the likes of Rolex etc. will have a hard time countering fakes when the technology for that level of precision is already there. (And these machines can be used for good too - after all, plenty of Swiss watch companies already use made in China parts).

Trigger Happy

Wibbs wrote: »

Still if you hit a hedgehog above 20 kph you're going through the pearly gates. About as safe as a bottle of nitroglycerin in a cement mixer.

They did not really do safety features in cars back then. MGs motto was 'Safety Fast' from the 1930s up to the 70s IIRC.

But - it is a real driving experience when you are behind the wheel of a car of that vintage. No syncro mesh gear shift, crap suspension etc...but the smell and sound and feel of them is just sublime. My car did not even have electric windshield washer - it was a rubber bubble pump.

I am back on motorbikes these days and its a close second to that 'real feel'.

fat bloke

You might bet better off investing your 8 grand on a motor and salting (not literally) that away for 15 years. Pretty much guaranteed it'll be rarer and more valuable then than now. Even something currently normal enough. - Easier said than done of course. A lot handier to stick a watch in a safe than house a car properly for 15 years.

Anyway, sure we're all only selling to ourselves here. Keep the bargain boards bubble fake-free and we're laughing

Fitz II

fat bloke wrote: »

You might bet better off investing your 8 grand on a motor and salting (not literally) that away for 15 years. Pretty much guaranteed it'll be rarer and more valuable then than now. Even something currently normal enough. - Easier said than done of course. A lot handier to stick a watch in a safe than house a car properly for 15 years.

Anyway, sure we're all only selling to ourselves here. Keep the bargain boards bubble fake-free and we're laughing

There is nothing out there for 8k that will cover its maintenance, insurance costs and storage costs which are considerable. A watch costs nothing to own, but cars will kill you......

fat bloke

Fitz II wrote: »

There is nothing out there for 8k that will cover its maintenance, insurance costs and storage costs which are considerable. A watch costs nothing to own, but cars will kill you......

Yerra what do you know about cars? You only like automatics!

Wibbs

Trigger Happy wrote: »

My car did not even have electric windshield washer - it was a rubber bubble pump.

Ferrari of a similar vintage had that too. I sat in a 250 Lusso once, gorgeous looking car(with an awful paintjob) and asked the owner what the bulb thing in the footwell was. Yep washer bottle pump. I gave it a squeeze and let's just say the resulting feeble stream looked like the car had prostate trouble

He then told me the wipers barely touched the glass no matter what he tried and tended to just move the smudges around. The sound of that V12 on startup and him speeding off though... wow. :eek:

I am back on motorbikes these days and its a close second to that 'real feel'.

Motorbikes would be a bit to real for me tbh. Frighten the bejaysus out of me.

Fitz II

fat bloke wrote: »

Yerra what do you know about cars? You only like automatics!

I have had one or two

And they all bled me to death.

wanderer 22

New to the game - what's the general consensus on chrono24 - a safe place to buy or is it just a case of 'buy the seller'?

Wibbs

Fitz II wrote: »

There is nothing out there for 8k that will cover its maintenance, insurance costs and storage costs which are considerable. A watch costs nothing to own, but cars will kill you......

This. Plus which car do you go for? Fashions change and what might be the hot car on the bottom of its depreciation curve today may be a meh car in the future. My own car(Honda Integra R) that I held onto by mistake an example of that. They went dirt cheap and meh and very boy racer with halfords "improvements" for a time, now prices for good unmolested original cars in the last three years have really strengthened and are going upwards(they're insane money in the US). Whereas its mark 2 version was seen as the thing back then, now have stagnated because nobody wants them. Outside of actual exotics it's very hard to tell.

Plus cars don't like being stored for very long and the more modern a car, the more fancy electronics that can go off over time. In a hundred years time a hammer, some WD40 and muttered profanities will get a Ford model T going again, a Ford Focus ST not so much. Not unlike the quartz/mechanical longevity debate in watches.

And then we get to all the other costs Fitz mentioned... I've a couple of relatives into vintage cars, 50's Alfas and the like and yeah some of the are knocking on 100k plus now, but as they'll tell you it took decades and a lot of cash to keep them going to get to that point and they never had investment in mind, they just love particular cars.

It can be a generational thing too. The 50's chrome era of classics market has really softened, quite simply because many of the collectors who were kids who couldn't buy them back then have gone on to the eternal road in the sky. That'll happen to the 60's 70's 80's and so on cars too. Then we have the whole electric cars thing and how that's going to change things a lot. In 30 years time you may not be even able to drive an old car on the road.

Wibbs

colm18 wrote: »

New to the game - what's the general consensus on chrono24 - a safe place to buy or is it just a case of 'buy the seller'?

From what I've heard it's pretty safe with quite a few safeguards in place for buyers. It does tend to be mostly dealers so mostly dealer prices which are higher. A few guys here have bought from there with no issues from what I recall.

A newbie eh?

Mr.-Burns-Excellent.jpg

Another to convert to the cause.

wanderer 22

Haha thanks...while we're on newbie questions.what are these levels of watch ownership I see referenced now and then...googling just brings ups Covid level restrictions :pac::pac:

Lorddrakul

Trigger Happy wrote: »

They did not really do safety features in cars back then. MGs motto was 'Safety Fast' from the 1930s up to the 70s IIRC.

But - it is a real driving experience when you are behind the wheel of a car of that vintage. No syncro mesh gear shift, crap suspension etc...but the smell and sound and feel of them is just sublime. My car did not even have electric windshield washer - it was a rubber bubble pump.

I am back on motorbikes these days and its a close second to that 'real feel'.

Indeed?

What's your current ride?

I've gone back to my green roots with a Z1000sx.

Lorddrakul

colm18 wrote: »

New to the game - what's the general consensus on chrono24 - a safe place to buy or is it just a case of 'buy the seller'?

I bought there late last year, from a registered dealer in Germany.

What was claimed to have been a serviced watch was anything but. Also, the clasp that came with it was badged properly but the actual folding bit was spurious.

It was resolved by Chono24, with a personal case handler and the price of a service was refunded. In the ned it also needed some NOS parts, which was over and above the service cost.

While I was happy in the end, as a first buying experience, it wasn't great. Plus, I had a a watch advertised there and had several offers that I formally accepted and the inquirers disappeared.

So, all in all, a mixed bag.

Fitz II

colm18 wrote: »

Haha thanks...while we're on newbie questions.what are these levels of watch ownership I see referenced now and then...googling just brings ups Covid level restrictions :pac::pac:

This has turned out to be so so true....
bannermeme.jpg?ext=.jpg

Trigger Happy

Lorddrakul wrote: »

Indeed?

What's your current ride?

I've gone back to my green roots with a Z1000sx.

I am on a wee cafe racer to get me going again. Looking to move to a new honda rebel before the spring.

wanderer 22

Thanks Fitz, seems with my Seiko 5 and Mondaine I'm right on track!

Wibbs

I started out at 5 and occupy each number in the curve up to 9. Though 6 covers 7, 8 and 9.:D

Fitz II

Wibbs wrote: »

I started out at 5 and occupy each number in the curve up to 9. Though 6 covers 7, 8 and 9.:D

You cant be number 9 unless you go through the stages Wibbs...you need to buy a few Rolex

Wibbs

I did, but they were vintage(and a couple of Tudor).

Also had a new Seiko(but that was a present when I was a kid). Have a Heuer minus the TAG and a couple of decent swiss went through my hands over the years. Though again vintage.

Rolex simply never appealed to me for some reason.

And in 1990(I remember it really well) I was in London looking at vintage and used watches in a few places. The selection amazed me coming from the feck all that was here and all sorts of steel Rolex could be had for well under a grand. I was offered a milsub though I didnt know what it was tbh, for 2-3k IIRC. I know now it was a milsub because the dealer was giving me the UK military issued background pointing out the differences and jokingly mentioned it might not suit an Irish guy(in a very nice way. He was a nice old bloke, but the times were a bit different then). I ended up getting a Stowa B-Uhr for under 300 quid. Totally unwearable of course. Doh.

I made a fair few quid when I sold it on years later, but if I'd have bought the Milsub. Double Doh!!!

I just don't like their designs, though I was tempted by an Oysterquartz and might be tempted again when the market finds other tulips. The Milgauss is nice but for me and IMHO isn't worth the pricepoint. Modern Zenith never appealed either. Even with my fave brand Longines their modern designs didn't and don't appeal. Their vintage reissues can, but I'd prefer the originals. Omegas... ehh sometimes. My fave period for them would be the 70's and I have one of them. I've just got weird taste Fitz

Wibbs

Speaking of Rolex and meetings I remember. One Rolex wearer I've not seen mentioned is the boul Bono. I met him a couple of times in the 80's and 90's(who didn't

) and I noticed he was wearing a Rolex. I seem to remember it was a medium sized one, two tone, bevelled bezel. Day-Date maybe? I didn't ask him. he might have thought it a mugging.

I remember at the time thinking it "old fashioned" for someone like him. Funny how perceptions change. Maybe it was a family piece?

And for all the crap he gets I found him a very personable good humoured kinda guy. Extremely bright.