RobbieTheRobber wrote: » Well maybe the answer isn't in your brain. Maybe look somewhere else. Here is that whole quote for youThe UK Muslim community is an interesting one and I'm not sure the same variables are at play in Ireland. I believe a large percentage of Uk muslims actually come from a quite small geographic area or maybe two and from specific ethnic groups and these geographically and ethnically similar groups have tended to stick together in those same groupings in Britain. Also I don't think many of the UK Muslims were asylum seekers were they not encouraged to come in by the UK government to fill in labour shortages.Anyway like I said I think there is enough difference between UK muslims and modern muslim immigrants to ireland to warrant considering if their might be different outcomes.
Justin Credible Darts wrote: » difference is wibbs did not accuse us on here of being racist ? Are you even reading the posts ?
One eyed Jack wrote: » I’m here racking my brain to think of any possible differences... and I really can’t think of any, or why you imagine there might be any differences between Muslims in the UK, and Muslims in Ireland, or what those differences might be. I expect the outcomes will be exactly the same as their UK counterparts - they integrate into any society only as much as they want to, but for the most part keep to themselves among their own communities, which is what a multicultural society actually is in reality.
Justin Credible Darts wrote: » I think trying to infer the majority on here are racist is insulting. As for deflecting, countless people have told you its not a race issue, but you have flat out ignored that and only hear what you want to hear.
Wibbs wrote: » I have fully agreed that racism on the part of the native White population is a huge factor in that
RobbieTheRobber wrote: » Anyway like I said I think there is enough difference between UK muslims and modern muslim immigrants to ireland to warrant considering if their might be different outcomes.
RobbieTheRobber wrote: » I have never personally attacked anyone which you admit so why even bring it up? You accuse me of deflection and then do the very same thing.
Kivaro wrote: » And another one bites the dust.
Wibbs wrote: » And we have the final act of the usual play. Start off apparently open for debate, when points are raised and debated further, add in a simplistic if hopeful understanding of history and cultures, run to deflection, or avoidance, throw in the hint of a tint of racism in other posters, add another hint of a tint of aggression in other posters, all capped with some of the oul passive aggression usually with added smileys, then some went the personal attack route(though to be fair to you, you didn't go there and didn't double down on personal attacks) and then leave citing "echo chambers" believing you've made your point. At least the position is consistent I'll give it that.
Wibbs wrote: » Nope. You said and I quote: Anyway like I said I think there is enough difference between UK muslims and modern muslim immigrants to ireland to warrant considering if their might be different outcomes.
RobbieTheRobber wrote: » Who is off on a tangent now. I spoke about the nature of the UK Muslim immigrants coming from one or two main geographic areas and being of a specific ethnic group. Then you post loads of links about radicalisation. But yeah wibbs its me going off on tangents. Your gas altogether. :D:D
RobbieTheRobber wrote: » Anyway the sound of my posts have echoed around the chambers of this thread long enough now. Good luck in the next election lads, I very much hope whatever anti immigrant political party you decide to support in that election is as successful as the last.
Wibbs wrote: » and yet...https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/islamic-radicals-in-ireland-now-number-100-or-more-warns-cleric-35805820.htmlhttps://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/uk-extremists-may-try-to-radicalise-irish-muslims-cleric-1.2501535https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/rise-in-far-right-and-islamic-extremism-activity-in-ireland-last-year-says-europol-1.4287646https://www.irishcentral.com/news/irishvoice/ireland-and-its-muslim-population-in-a-post-charlie-hebdo-attack-world The risks of things going nuts here to the same degree as England or France are low for the moment and hopefully it stays that way, but some aspects of radicalism are already here.
RobbieTheRobber wrote: » What are you being so aggressive about?
If you make a post (poster a) and poster b comes along to defend your position they cant later claim oh that's not my position. Plenty of examples in the thread find your own names rather than trying to get me to pick fights.
Indeed after the scale the two wars took on human life in Europe you would hope for peace and after we all but wiped from Europe our favoured ethnic group to pick on. So our peace came at quite some price. I would hope you are not wishing that level of ethnic cleansing on any branch of our fellow Muslim humans.
Those are your words wibbs I never expressed that sentiment.
But I believe European nations for their own benefit should aid in the reconstruction of Africa after the damage some nations assisted in creating in that continent both socially and economically.
Or we can leave it to behemoth of far east asia (China) to steal in and further plunder the continent of its natural resources.
It seems your arguing against something I didn't say.
Can you name these enclaves in Ireland please so we can properly talk about what might have caused them. It would be wrong to assume that all these "enclaves" have been caused by the same issues. Surely your not suggesting each of these undefined enclaves has the same events leading to their creation so perhaps it might be better to discuss each such enclave on its own merits. So name the first you like most and we can talk.
So if you can accept racism is one of the issues and one we as a people can address then should we not address that issue. It might not solve all the problems but it is something we can strive to correct regardless.
Anyway like I said I think there is enough difference between UK muslims and modern muslim immigrants to ireland to warrant considering if their might be different outcomes.
Deleted User wrote: » You have this... problem with dealing with what has been written and going off on tangents that are unrelated. And I could go through all your multi-quotes but you have just confirmed that while you will address points, you'll seek to twist them rather than deal directly with what's written. Frankly, you're just a clone of a variety of posters who came through before, being obtuse for the sake of it, and avoiding committing to any true stance, except to pass judgment on other posters.
Deleted User wrote: » Now you want to accept and apply nuance, when you were incapable of appreciating it before? I honestly did have high hopes that you wouldn't be repeating the posting style of yesterday, but those hopes have been dashed. Yup. I'm going to say it. Duh. And in spite of my suggestion that you read something of the thread, it's obvious that you haven't. European migration of natives from within the EU are not considered a problem. You have this... problem with dealing with what has been written and going off on tangents that are unrelated. And I could go through all your multi-quotes but you have just confirmed that while you will address points, you'll seek to twist them rather than deal directly with what's written. Frankly, you're just a clone of a variety of posters who came through before, being obtuse for the sake of it, and avoiding committing to any true stance, except to pass judgment on other posters. I gave you a respectable and polite response to your question, and you shat on it. Well done. Naturally. Back to having those fire-starters handy. It's quite possible that I've gone through your post (three times now) and misunderstood the attitudes shown.. Perhaps I have, but I don't think I did. Now. I am truly finished with you, and won't be responding or posting to anything you write. I tried giving you the benefit of doubt but that seems to have fallen flat.
RobbieTheRobber wrote: » There has to more nuance than this blanket statement.
We already host many foreign born people in our nation. The European project and its open borders and free movement of EU nation people means we have already chosen as a nation to accept foreign born people. And Irish people are overwhelmingly supportive of EU membership and the benefits it brings and with that we accept the movement of foreign born EU peoples into our country. So it is not the movement into the country of foreign born people that is a problem. Unless you have an issue with EU freedom of movement.
I will take thanks and defence of another posters comments as acceptance of those comments otherwise all discussion should be moved from the main forum and be conducted only by PM.
Klaz again thank you for taking the time to post your opinion in this way it does more to further discussion than much of the comments over the past number of pages. Robbie
Wibbs wrote: » Spit it out man. Name names. Don't hint, own your opinions.
Wibbs wrote: » Indeed, though we've settled down a lot since then and have had one of the most continuously peaceful and prosperous periods in European history and yet we should seek to import more possibilities of interethnic friction? Sounds like a good plan.
Wibbs wrote: » And present generations of Europeans are in hock for the sins of our great great grandparents? The same imperial powers didn't exactly treat their own peasantry too well. There was a reason for the French Revolution and the Russian one. Never mind the Far East was also affected by European imperialism and yet they're the rising economic force in the world today and many states in the ME are swimming in riches.
Wibbs wrote: » "Transient" and "workers" being the operative words here. A bit different to more permanent and more unemployed.
Wibbs wrote: » And now we're onto the EU.... Internal EU migration is what we signed up for and hasn't lead to ghettoisation in Ireland, though recent influxes of migrants from outside Europe are already setting up enclaves within some European nations. For the most part they're coming from similar liberal western European cultures with similar education and governmental systems and attitudes to religion or lack thereof(Poland could be seen as an outlier as there's still quite the conservative streak in play).
Wibbs wrote: » We're discussing multiculturalism and the modern multiculturalist politic barely recognises White, nominally "christian", Europeans in the mix. Even though nearly 200,000 of same currently live in Ireland. You mentioned "race", well the same modern multiculturalist politic is positively obsessed with it and identity politics and sees the group affiliation just as starkly as any hardline right winger and only seems to recognise "proper" multiculturalism on those terms. 200,000 White non native people in Ireland, not really multicultural, we need more Black and Brown people for some reason. For that matter East Asians barely get a look in either. In the US they've gone even further by removing East Asians from POC studies into education and economic surveys, because they to do better on average than other POC and better even than the White population, so skew the stats and make for uncomfortable questions.
Wibbs wrote: » And I note you still haven't answered the question I posed. Can you find me any European multicultural nation where those of African and ME origins(and nomadic peoples) don't tend to cluster at the lower rungs of the socioeconomic ladder and don't tend to set up urban enclaves? So why should we seek to import another more complex underclass on top of our own?
Wibbs wrote: » I have fully agreed that racism on the part of the native White population is a huge factor in that(though it's not the only factor, internal cultural differences can be at play too), but again how are we supposed to magically make things different? We've only had multiculturalism for about two decades and the self same trends and narratives are already in play, so it seems we won't make things different and instead can look forward to the same social issues and divisions as other multicultural nations before us.
Wibbs wrote: » Oh and before anyone gets too excited around the "race" bit, the different outcomes are clearly cultural. UK Pakistanis do notably worse on average than UK Indians. Same "race". Bahrainis do better than Turks, same "race". African immigrants to the US do better than African Americans. Same "race". Closer to home; Irish settled people do far better than Irish Travellers. Same "race".
RobbieTheRobber wrote: » I will take thanks and defence of another posters comments as acceptance of those comments otherwise all discussion should be moved from the main forum and be conducted only by PM.
Rarely any friction except the two world wars and if we ignore places like the Basque and northern Ireland.
It would also be remiss of us to ignore the role European imperialism caused in the issues still present in modern day in Africa and the middle east.
What about meat factory workers and farm labourers for example they are hardly high skilled jobs and are largely done by migrant workers is that an acceptable usage of transient migrant workers?
Deleted User wrote: » Come on, you can't be this blind to the practicalities of immigration, and hosting different groups in a foreign (foreign to them, and so, without the usual supports) nation.
Deleted User wrote: » I shouldn't need a disclaimer here but I can see I need one with you. First, my opinions are my own. Nothing to do with Wibbs or other posters. They might like my post, but i know they don't agree with everything I say.. Second, this is not about migrants being good or bad individually. These are generalisations. If you can't accept that.. well.. I wonder why you're discussing such a topic at all.
Deleted User wrote: » Now. Immigration groups: Genuine Asylum seeker. No problem at all. If they meet the requirements, I'd welcome them with open arms.. although I do think the requirements need to re-evaluated from time to time, and not from the perspective of the UN, but from the perspective of the host nation (that's the one receiving them)
Deleted User wrote: » Economic migrants. Temporary. (which is important) Two distinct groups. Skilled/educated migrants who are meeting established needs within the economy. Totally welcome. They'll work hard, save money, pay their taxes, and move on eventually. Unskilled/low educated migrants. I've said it before, and no doubt I'll say it again.. Ireland doesn't have the economy or industry focus to support large numbers of unskilled labor. Other countries such as Germany or France do.. and even they're having issues with employing them consistently.
Deleted User wrote: » Economic migrants. Permanent, residency or citizenship. Skilled/educated migrants who are meeting established needs within the economy. Again, totally welcome. Unskilled/low educated migrants... cost the state too much to upskill and provide for during the period that they're being upskilled. Results across Europe show a surprisingly low success rate in educating such migrant groups, and while the blame is being directed at the nations involved, simple logic suggests that some must rest with these migrants. A large percentage stay on welfare during their education, and return to it after.
Deleted User wrote: » Refugees. That's a tough one because it's been allowed to expand into economic as opposed to purely due to war. I don't believe we should be accepting them, and that they should be heading to neighboring countries, waiting until they can return home to rebuild. Hopefully, leading their country into a new future of enlightenment and peace.
Deleted User wrote: » As OEJ said earlier, I do favor the Australian approach to immigration. I don't see the point in importing an underclass of unskilled/lowly educated people into the country, when we already have such groups of our own. Europe has a rather large unemployment rate depending on which countries you examine, and I feel that we would be much better off tapping into that labor market than importing or encouraging groups from countries which are distinctly different than ours culturally.
Deleted User wrote: » Which leads into multiculturalism, where I feel Ireland would be better off focusing on improving links to other European countries, rather than bringing in peoples whose values and beliefs are often distinctly different from ours.
Deleted User wrote: » The effects of multiculturalism are well documented throughout Europe, which rarely show any friction between European cultural groups, but has shown increasing friction with groups from outside Europe. I'd favor a set limit on immigration from Africa, M.East and S.America. I'm less bothered by Asians, as they tend to avoid any trouble leading to friction, don't demand recognition of their culture, and are usually very successful in finding work.
Deleted User wrote: » I'm interested in a pragmatic system being put in place, that provides what migrants need to be a success (education, work placement, etc) but sets a time limit for how long migrants can fail before becoming self-sufficient. I'd favor deportations for any migrant who fails to become self-sufficient within a 10 year period (assuming that education acquisition was part of that). Any children born during that period would leave with the parents should the fail to meet the requirements.
Deleted User wrote: » As for multiculturalism and Islam.. Yup.. I have a bone there. Not because I have anything against Islam (or Muslims themselves).. since I've spent time in the M.East and think they're entitled to their cultural choices. However, I do have concerns about Islam in Europe, for example, with what's happening in France, (not just the violence, but the ethnic enclaves, and the colonialism of certain areas by migrant groups).. The issues with Islam and the failure of integration highlight the problems with integration for other racial/cultural groups. So.. there you go. A decent and detailed answer. We'll see whether you deal with it in good faith, or continue as you have so far.
Marcos wrote: » On this, perhaps the issues with Sudanese & Somali street gangs in Melbourne have coloured their view and made them less likely to take in more.https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-02/street-gangs-are-a-problem-in-melbourne-police-admit/9297984https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-01/african-gang-crime-out-of-control-in-melbourne-minister-says/9296476https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7823527/South-Sudanese-leader-says-gang-culture-Melbourne-teenager-stabbed-dead.html Given the fact that authorities generally tend to look the other way when given half a chance, but this was referred to in parliament, it's fair to say that this was/is a serious issue. Sydney has had a cohort of immigrants from Lebanon since the 1980's or so. But again that hasn't gone all well. The Skaf gang rapes, where a gang led by Bilal and Mohammed Skaf raped 6 schoolgirls, including 1 attack where 14 Or here where 2nd generation are caught between two stools, not feeling accepted in their new country and feel they are not Lebanese enough so are easy prey for gangs.https://world.time.com/2013/10/11/in-sydney-disaffected-lebanese-kids-caught-in-spiraling-gang-violence/ As has been noted before this is a pattern that hits 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants to western countries, and one that we are beginning to see happen here. So that's definitely a downside to multiculturalism in the form it's currently being pushed across the Western world. We get some nice food, and some people can feel good about themselves so that's good. :rolleyes:
"I think it's time he got out," former Crown prosecutor Margaret Cunneen, who put the gang behind bars, said of Mohammed Skaf last year. "He's done his time." His lawyer Omar Juweinat agreed. "There must be a point in a prisoner's life where enough time is enough time. Mr Skaf is well beyond his non-parole period, has undertaken every conceivable course and was diagnosed with a very serious illness," Mr Juweinat told the Herald earlier this year.
Wibbs wrote: » None from Africa or the Middle East for a start. It seems they're biased towards east Asians and Whites.
raped a schoolgirl in a toilet block and taunted her about whether she liked it Leb style and called her an Aussie pig.
Deleted User wrote: » Which is one of the reasons I'm so favorable towards the Australian immigration system. I went through it as a skilled migrant, and I saw the results (and the problems associated with earlier immigration policies).
CruelCoin wrote: » Oh i know, i was just joking. I did that typical hippie road trip (volks beach bus with a matress in the back) and drove from Cairns down to Melbourne, up to Adelaide, over the bight, down through wine country and up again to Perth. 16000km in 6 weeks. Hell of a trip, and i'd do it again tomorrow. Stunning country, especially the blue mountains. Except for Brisbane, now that's a postercard ****hole.
Deleted User wrote: » I spent just over a year in Queensland. Gorgeous countryside, and while there is a lot of arid/desert, Australia doesn't need a large population, and so with the buildup on the coastline, most people are living on that gorgeous countryside. The only real downside were the water restrictions, but you can find that in many countries. I'd imagine they'd love to go to Oz if they could. Every expat/migrant I know who has spent time there (Asians, and westerners) simply raves about how great a country it is to live in. Which it is. It has its problems.. but then all countries do. Quite honestly, if I wasn't so fixated on Asia, I'd seriously consider going back and living there permanently.
CruelCoin wrote: » To be fair, maybe the africans and mid-easterns don't want to swap one desertified barren wasteland for another?
Deleted User wrote: » Does it make him racist? Or simply elitist? If there's no sense of hatred, superiority, etc.. but simply not believing a Black person to be Irish.. it wouldn't seem like racist would be the most appropriate/accurate term.. no? I must admit that Racism/racist has "evolved" so far beyond what I was taught, that it might as well be a new word entirely. Seems to become a broader term every few months.
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