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Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

[Deleted User]

Is there another way of looking at it?
It’s still very, very divided, and actually seems to be getting more polarized over the last five years. It’s economy is woeful, very heavily dependent on the public sector.
Unionists are making plans to celebrate its centenary, but there seems to be very little to be happy with, certainly far less than the Republic or the rest of the UK.
No point in arguing about a border poll on this thread, but is there any possible way of looking at NI as a social, political and economic failure?

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FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

That would come afterwards. Great analogy from natterjack.
Unions would not meet management to discuss how to introduce massive pay reductions and how to make them more palatable. That would be crazy.
But if management introduced them then the unions would support the workers to fight them.

Nonsense. Unions discuss/negotiate job and pay cuts all the time.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/unions-to-meet-rt%C3%A9-management-over-proposed-job-cuts-1.4078605

https://www.newstalk.com/news/union-seeks-urgent-meeting-aer-lingus-job-cuts-1033889

downcow

Beltby wrote: »

Would you think then that in the event of a UI they will take it on the chin then? Just accept the will of the people? They wouldn't be looking for any concessions?

That would come afterwards. Great analogy from natterjack.
Unions would not meet management to discuss how to introduce massive pay reductions and how to make them more palatable. That would be crazy.
But if management introduced them then the unions would support the workers to fight them.

Beltby

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Yes, I can't fathom why people should expect unionist to engage in a dialogue about something they have no interest in changing. The status quo suits. So why engage in dialogue about something you don't want in the first place. Republicans, nationalists, and terrorists can do so, because the wish that change.
Trade unions don't go to employers demanding dialogue on pay reductions for example.

Would you think then that in the event of a UI they will take it on the chin then? Just accept the will of the people? They wouldn't be looking for any concessions?

FrancieBrady

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Yes, I can't fathom why people should expect unionist to engage in a dialogue about something they have no interest in changing. The status quo suits. So why engage in dialogue about something you don't want in the first place. Republicans, nationalists, and terrorists can do so, because the wish that change.
Trade unions don't go to employers demanding dialogue on pay reductions for example.

So just go on being belligerent Unionists and stick your head in the sand, hope it will go away and then whinge when the world moves on wthout you.
That was the strategy for the GFA, how did that work out for them? They've had to swallow their Never Never Never again and again and again is where it has left them, culminating in being separated from 'the mainland' by an Irish Sea border. I.E. The world has moved on without them.

Great strategy.

Natterjack from Kerry

Yes, I can't fathom why people should expect unionist to engage in a dialogue about something they have no interest in changing. The status quo suits. So why engage in dialogue about something you don't want in the first place. Republicans, nationalists, and terrorists can do so, because the wish that change.
Trade unions don't go to employers demanding dialogue on pay reductions for example.

downcow

Lucy8080 wrote: »

I find when you start to talk about the practicality of what it would actually mean, a lot of people go very quite.

I think this is the conversation that Unionists politicians are avoiding in the hope that a head in the sand attitude will work. Nationalists and Republicans are happy to have that conversation.

A new Ireland ,respectful of all on this Island, does not require the Garda policing the Shankill. There are many solutions/imaginative political idea's that could navigate the interests of this island and all it's people .

Even the Unionist's don't trust London. They live in scorned hope (time and time again) that London cares for them.

You misread unionists.
The paradox which cannot be solved is that if unionists get involved in negotiating a fairer outcome for their people in a hypothetical united island , then they do two things
1) they start to make the unforeseeable, highly unlikely, begin to look l possible and look like something unionists would consider
2) any successes in those negotiations would make a vote for a United ireland more likely

In reality unionists should be encouraging republicans to go as harsh as possible which makes a UI vote even more unlikely. So their demands currently for Irish signs in unionist areas etc is good for increasing further the anti UI vote.

Ironically the more unionists can accommodate the greening of ni the less likely a ui. And the more nationalists green ni the less likely a UI

Lucy8080

I find when you start to talk about the practicality of what it would actually mean, a lot of people go very quite.[/QUOTE]

I think this is the conversation that Unionists politicians are avoiding in the hope that a head in the sand attitude will work. Nationalists and Republicans are happy to have that conversation.

A new Ireland ,respectful of all on this Island, does not require the Garda policing the Shankill. There are many solutions/imaginative political idea's that could navigate the interests of this island and all it's people .

Even the Unionist's don't trust London. They live in scorned hope (time and time again) that London cares for them.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

And you can’t see peopl breaking restrictions?

I'm going on what the PSNI said...'a number had to be reminded'. If the PSNI charge them, fair enough.
People are breaking restrictions everywhere on the two islands from Sammy no mask Wilson to Michelle selfie O'Neill.
They are wrong to do it.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I'll say exactly what I said after the Storey funeral, if people broke restrictions they were wrong and should be penalised whatever the penalty is.

And you can’t see peopl breaking restrictions?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

https://ibb.co/rpywC0M
https://ibb.co/wJCrMS5
https://ibb.co/ZWXbd9b

I'll say exactly what I said after the Storey funeral, if people broke restrictions they were wrong and should be penalised whatever the penalty is.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I haven't seen any photos and the first I heard of it was the link you posted.

https://ibb.co/rpywC0M
https://ibb.co/wJCrMS5
https://ibb.co/ZWXbd9b

Sure why not. Michelle says it’s ok.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The NIO meeting with Unionist paramilitary figures is much more indicative of a failed entity. The largest Unionist party seeking the approval of Unionist paramilitary figures before signing off on rights for Irish language speakers is indicative of a failed entity.

I don’t think it had anything to do with Irish language https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/brexit/loyalist-community-council-joins-nio-defending-meeting-over-brexit-and-northern-ireland-protocol-3112461%3famp

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I could share photos but I am sure you have seen them and hope I don’t have them lol You are talking nonsense

I haven't seen any photos and the first I heard of it was the link you posted.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Have a look at RIP.ie. I don't want to put somebody's funeral notice up here, but I am going to follow a local's hearse tomorrow as a mark of respect. The funeral notice has all the regulations and restrictions and instructs people who want to pay their respects how to do that while obeying the restrictions.

Seems to me reading the article that the PSNI had no issues with that funeral bar reminding some people of the restrictions.

I could share photos but I am sure you have seen them and hope I don’t have them lol You are talking nonsense

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

There has been at least a dozen of these ira funerals since Bobby storeys. The shinners are embarrassed but that can’t challenge their masters

Have a look at RIP.ie. I don't want to put somebody's funeral notice up here, but I am going to follow a local's hearse tomorrow as a mark of respect. The funeral notice has all the regulations and restrictions and instructs people who want to pay their respects how to do that while obeying the restrictions.

Seems to me reading the article that the PSNI had no issues with that funeral bar reminding some people of the restrictions.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The NIO meeting with Unionist paramilitary figures is much more indicative of a failed entity. The largest Unionist party seeking the approval of Unionist paramilitary figures before signing off on rights for Irish language speakers is indicative of a failed entity.

They are quietly trying to keep the lid on that some are trying to pop off

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Which didn't go up in flames and isn't an economic basket case dependent on the largesse of 3 other countries.

Or maybe it was a dark monocultural ****hole that could attract the largesse of 3 other countries

downcow

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Its an understandable conclusion all right and one not without grounds when you see carry on like that of people paying tribute to people who are scum of the earth and the world is a better place without them. The inability of the IRA/SF movement must cause southern Irish serious pause for thought about the idea of a UI. Surely no one wants this kind of 'culture' in their country ?

There has been at least a dozen of these ira funerals since Bobby storeys. The shinners are embarrassed but that can’t challenge their masters

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Is it any wonder some think ni has failed when we have people like this in our midst

The NIO meeting with Unionist paramilitary figures is much more indicative of a failed entity. The largest Unionist party seeking the approval of Unionist paramilitary figures before signing off on rights for Irish language speakers is indicative of a failed entity.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So was Roi

Which didn't go up in flames and isn't an economic basket case dependent on the largesse of 3 other countries.

Natterjack from Kerry

Its an understandable conclusion all right and one not without grounds when you see carry on like that of people paying tribute to people who are scum of the earth and the world is a better place without them. The inability of the IRA/SF movement must cause southern Irish serious pause for thought about the idea of a UI. Surely no one wants this kind of 'culture' in their country ?

downcow

Is it any wonder some think ni has failed when we have people like this in our midst
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40213988.html%3ftype=amp
I have it from a source I trust that martina Anderson was at this funeral but covered up.
There was one one these republican displays in my hometown last week.

The arrogance is incredible

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

NI was formed by partition, that is what you propose celebrating.

So was Roi

Jim2007

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Unlikely. Most are more wedded to a united Ireland utopia that skews their judgement in any other aspect of NI.

Or, republicans are declining their vaccinations, wanting to keep at an Roi pace of progress. Because, well, that's more Irish, and whatever the British pace is, it must be bad for NI.

We are all Republicans, it's the form of government and democracy we live in, just the same about 14 other European states. Except that in the case of Switzerland and Ireland we have a sovereign people rather than a sovereign parliament or monarch, something we have Churchill and Birkenhead to thank for actually.

And by the way, there is not such state as ROI, it's the name of a football team.

And as I have said already, you can always find a particular measure to make any state look good in light of another, but it is the totality the impacts voters in the end.

So lets give you the vaccinations for the moment, put we are only at the begging of what will prove to be a long process and we really won't know for a few years what works. So what else have you got?

- GDP per capita, better not
- National Debt, better not
- Net exporting, better not
- Life expectancy of kids, better not
- Satisfaction with Life Index, better not
- ...

You have survived up to now on hand outs, but the 'I'm alright jack' kind of politics we've seen over the past while, may signal that is coming to an end:

And I would not be at all surprised if there is very little support for a United Ireland when the time comes.

It's very easy support a united Ireland in the abstract, but when the discussions start and it becomes real.... "Would you support a United Ireland if your taxes were increased by 10%?", "Would you support a United Ireland if Irish soldiers and Garda were coming home from NI in body bags?", "Would you encourage your son/daughter to server if it became necessary?", "Do you understand that a United Ireland would most likely be more conservative in terms of constitutional change etc..", "That SF would most likely be the dominant party in any new Parliment"

I find when you start to talk about the practicality of what it would actually mean, a lot of people go very quite.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

We are not celebrating partition. We are celebrating forming NI and not partitioning from the U.K. so I guess we are celebrating not partitioning.
When did you partition from the rest of us? That should be worth a party for you.

NI was formed by partition, that is what you propose celebrating.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You have done well with the vaccine, without a doubt and I have said this before.

You are like the guy on Twitter this AM in reverse, he wants to pull the WHOLE EU down because of difficulties with the vaccine - i.e. he cannot see the wood for the trees.

Never forget the state you were in with the virus due to political failure. The 'failure' that was caused because the very state has failed.
The ideological pull caused by what you ridicously want to celebrate this year - partition.
The ideological pull which has caused the results of the weekends polling.

We are not celebrating partition. We are celebrating forming NI and not partitioning from the U.K. so I guess we are celebrating not partitioning.
When did you partition from the rest of us? That should be worth a party for you.

FrancieBrady

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Unlikely. Most are more wedded to a united Ireland utopia that skews their judgement in any other aspect of NI.

Or, republicans are declining their vaccinations, wanting to keep at an Roi pace of progress. Because, well, that's more Irish, and whatever the British pace is, it must be bad for NI.

Could you maybe start with this forum and back up your view?

Which 'republicans' here have not acknowledged the better roll out of the vaccine in the north?

Natterjack from Kerry

downcow wrote: »

Maybe some republican on here could bring themselves to acknowledge something positive in NI?

Unlikely. Most are more wedded to a united Ireland utopia that skews their judgement in any other aspect of NI.

Or, republicans are declining their vaccinations, wanting to keep at an Roi pace of progress. Because, well, that's more Irish, and whatever the British pace is, it must be bad for NI.

Jim2007

downcow wrote: »

I have found more and more on this thread how many of you believe NI is a failure and some sort of backwater almost entirely based on nonsense peddled by those who want you to believe that.

Being part of the UK has supported ni to be a great success much more so than we would have been had we been shackled to Roi.

I am quite surprised that your prime minister is trying to cover your lack of vaccinations and variant testing by having an outburst this morning directed at us.
He says NI is not testing for the variant. Just lies. Not only is ni testing for the variant but we are massively ramping that up. The facts are (before ramping up)
Roi are testing 1% of cases for the variant
EU recommends screening 4%
UK is screening 7%
We are actually leading the world in numbers and technology for screening for the variant.
Why would your pm be so misinformed??

NI also is managing to maintain 1st position of all European countries with vaccine rollout. We should be first country to reach 10% vaccinated on Tuesday with England getting there on Wednesday and wales and Scotland not too far behind. Then a very big gap to first EU country.

Doesn’t really seem OWC is a failure in what is the most pressing issue facing all countries just now.

Maybe some republican on here could bring themselves to acknowledge something positive in NI?

But that is the thing, you need to be shackled someone, that is the point....

And while you can always find some issue that is favorable to any country over another, it's the totality that matters to most people.

NI has survived with a lot of support, that is about it. It is certainly not a driving force within the UK.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I have found more and more on this thread how many of you believe NI is a failure and some sort of backwater almost entirely based on nonsense peddled by those who want you to believe that.
Being part of the UK has supported ni to be a great success much more so than we would have been had we been shackled to Roi.

I am quite surprised that your prime minister is trying to cover your lack of vaccinations and variant testing by having an outburst this morning directed at us.
He says NI is not testing for the variant. Just lies. Not only is ni testing for the variant but we are massively ramping that up. The facts are (before ramping up)
Roi are testing 1% of cases for the variant
EU recommends screening 4%
UK is screening 7%
We are actually leading the world in numbers and technology for screening for the variant.
Why would your pm be so misinformed??

NI also is managing to maintain 1st position of all European countries with vaccine rollout. We should be first country to reach 10% vaccinated on Tuesday with England getting there on Wednesday and wales and Scotland not too far behind. Then a very big gap to first EU country.

Doesn’t really seem OWC is a failure in what is the most pressing issue facing all countries just now.

Maybe some republican on here could bring themselves to acknowledge something positive in NI?

You have done well with the vaccine, without a doubt and I have said this before.

You are like the guy on Twitter this AM in reverse, he wants to pull the WHOLE EU down because of difficulties with the vaccine - i.e. he cannot see the wood for the trees.

Never forget the state you were in with the virus due to political failure. The 'failure' that was caused because the very state has failed.
The ideological pull caused by what you ridicously want to celebrate this year - partition.
The ideological pull which has caused the results of the weekends polling.