What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

For a country with 29% of the population made up by immigrants its hardly negative either.

Australia has very strict immigration control. The kind that many here call for. Klaz, for example, has in the past. Yet you use Australia as an example of how immigration is welcomed yet call Klaz a racist for wanting an Australian style immigration policy. Doesn't add up.

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Australia has very strict immigration control. The kind that many here call for. Klaz, for example, has in the past. Yet you use Australia as an example of how immigration is welcomed yet call Klaz a racist for wanting an Australian style immigration policy. Doesn't add up.

240,000 in 2019 is hardly that restrictive.
Roughly an increase of 1% on the population by inward migration in 2019

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

240,000 in 2019 is hardly that restrictive.
Roughly an increase of 1% on the population by inward migration in 2019

It is restrictive in the sense of who can get in. This is why Klaz was earlier alluding to nuance and others talked of your simplistic view of things.

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

It is restrictive in the sense of who can get in. This is why Klaz was earlier alluding to nuance and others talked of your simplistic view of things.

In what way?

Demographics of Australian population
Total Australian-born 17,836,000
Total foreign-born 7,529,570
England England 986,460
Mainland China Mainland China[C] 677,240
India India 660,350
New Zealand New Zealand 570,000
Philippines Philippines 293,770
Vietnam Vietnam 262,910
South Africa South Africa 193,860
Italy Italy 182,520
Malaysia Malaysia 175,920
Sri Lanka Sri Lanka 140,260
Scotland Scotland[D] 133,920
Nepal Nepal 117,870
South Korea South Korea 116,030
Germany Germany 112,420
Greece Greece 106,660
United States United States 108,570
Hong Kong Hong Kong SAR[E] 101,290

James Brown

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Some interesting points for a thread on multicultiurism from that link Invidious.
Top 4 countries by percentage of immigrants
Australia (29%), More immigrants 18% About the same 42% less/none 38% (60% positive)
Israel (24%), More immigrants 9% About the same 15% less/none 73% (Overwhelmingly negative)
Canada (22%) More immigrants 19% About the same 53% less/none 27% (72% positive)
Sweden (18%). More immigrants 14% About the same 33% less/none 52% (47% positive)

Interestingly apart from Israel the other 3 from the top 4 countries for immigrants in their country in the study are not overwhelmingly negative.

Australia and Canada seem to view immigration positively based on the survey and the Swedish numbers would need more understanding to see which way the none and fewer breaks down.

Obviously Israel is a different kettle of fish in terms of its religious makeup and the likely religious makeup of immigrants seeking to enter the country.

Israel have a specific type they want/allow. They could do with being positive towards the people they landed on.

Diversity is a great thing. Not to be confused with open borders. Simply have an agreed criteria for entry.

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

It is restrictive in the sense of who can get in. This is why Klaz was earlier alluding to nuance and others talked of your simplistic view of things.

Hold up there Steven I am engaging in good faith. I did not present the data I am merely reviewing the data from a link provided by someone else. Please keep your abuse to yourself it's really not civil.

James Brown wrote: »

Israel have a specific type that want/allow. They could do with being positive towards the people they landed on.

Diversity is a great thing. Not to be confused with open boarders. Simply have an agreed criteria for entry.

Oh I very much agree james. I included for completeness sake and so other posters could not accuse me of cherry picking data points even though this link was not posted by me but as a rebuttal of a study I earlier linked.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

It has moved modestly on immigration in that period but was not starting from a negative position. The key take is that immigration is still viewed positively in the whole in Europe. Contrary to what some posters in this thread would have us believe.

It depends entirely on which study one reads. QV Invidious' link

What's with the mystery wibbs what is this key point I'm avoiding ask it straight and see if I avoid.

It was one point and you literally quoted it, but then went off on a different tack. I was talking about how some migrant cultures attitudes are deeply conservative on a few matters we take for granted and then you went off on an entirely different debate about attitudes towards immigration from native populations.

I notice you never came back to accept your assertion that the recent referendums where not overwhelming supported was wrong despite one having over 66% support and the other over 80% support very much contrary to your claims.

You can't seem to even get your referenda straight. Your original post referenced abortion and SSM, then when I questioned how not so overwhelming they were and that a third or over of Irish people ticked nay, now you bring in the divorce referendum with an actually stronger voting return in favour. Speaking of referenda, the one to close the loophole for anchor babies got 80% too and not a single voting area returned below the 70% plus mark, even in the normally progressive south county Dublin region, so by your metric that's overwhelming too and clearly sending the message that a large proportion of Irish people had had enough with the influx on non EU nationals giving birth here and getting residency/citizenship from it. The usual vested interests were screaming "racism" in the run up to that vote and after it too.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Some interesting points for a thread on multicultiurism from that link Invidious.
Top 4 countries by percentage of immigrants
Australia (29%), More immigrants 18% About the same 42% less/none 38% (60% positive)
Israel (24%), More immigrants 9% About the same 15% less/none 73% (Overwhelmingly negative)
Canada (22%) More immigrants 19% About the same 53% less/none 27% (72% positive)
Sweden (18%). More immigrants 14% About the same 33% less/none 52% (47% positive)

Interestingly apart from Israel the other 3 from the top 4 countries for immigrants in their country in the study are not overwhelmingly negative.

Australia and Canada seem to view immigration positively based on the survey and the Swedish numbers would need more understanding to see which way the none and fewer breaks down.

Obviously Israel is a different kettle of fish in terms of its religious makeup and the likely religious makeup of immigrants seeking to enter the country.

It's quite simple and the countries referenced are quite different in a few ways. Israel is a recent colony that was founded and relied upon immigration along very ethnic lines to form and grow. Australia and Canada are ex colonial nations founded upon and reliant upon immigration to survive. Those nations simply wouldn't exist without it. When such nations start to fill up like Israel, they dial back on their constant need for more bodies.

America another example. To get into America a century ago you just had to turn up to Ellis island with limbs intact and not riddled with TB and you were in. Today their criteria is a lot more stringent if you want to enter legally and because of the demographic shift in the country they've become more hardened against immigration, particularly non White immigration over the last couple of decades(today about half the babies born in the US aren't White, a few decades ago it was under 20%).

Sweden is not an ex colony, it's a European state and has about a decade or so on us as far as larger numbers of immigrants. Sweden that bastion of progressive thought and yet over half of Swedes polled want no more immigration, a third want the status quo to remain and only 14% want to increase numbers. There's bugger all positive about that and shows attitudes are hardening and I will bet they'll harden further. I'd like to see the difference in Swedish attitudes between urban and rural Swedes. Modern Multiculturalism is an almost entirely urban phenomenon and that's where all the problems lay.

TL;DR? One can't compare ex colonies that were founded upon and required immigration to survive and European nations that didn't. There is a very different set of dynamics going on. Never mind that those self same ex colonies don't exactly have a great record with regard to interethnic strife and still do.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

In what way?

Demographics of Australian population
Total Australian-born 17,836,000
Total foreign-born 7,529,570
England England 986,460
Mainland China Mainland China[C] 677,240
India India 660,350
New Zealand New Zealand 570,000
Philippines Philippines 293,770
Vietnam Vietnam 262,910
South Africa South Africa 193,860
Italy Italy 182,520
Malaysia Malaysia 175,920
Sri Lanka Sri Lanka 140,260
Scotland Scotland[D] 133,920
Nepal Nepal 117,870
South Korea South Korea 116,030
Germany Germany 112,420
Greece Greece 106,660
United States United States 108,570
Hong Kong Hong Kong SAR[E] 101,290

None from Africa or the Middle East for a start. It seems they're biased towards east Asians and Whites.

Wibbs wrote: »

It depends entirely on which study one reads. QV Invidious' link

It was one point and you literally quoted it, but then went off on a different tack. I was talking about how some migrant cultures attitudes are deeply conservative on a few matters we take for granted and then you went off on an entirely different debate about attitudes towards immigration from native populations.
You can't seem to even get your referenda straight. Your original post referenced abortion and SSM, then when I questioned how not so overwhelming they were and that a third or over of Irish people ticked nay, now you bring in the divorce referendum with an actually stronger voting return in favour. Speaking of referenda, the one to close the loophole for anchor babies got 80% too and not a single voting area returned below the 70% plus mark, even in the normally progressive south county Dublin region, so by your metric that's overwhelming too and clearly sending the message that a large proportion of Irish people had had enough with the influx on non EU nationals giving birth here and getting residency/citizenship from it. The usual vested interests were screaming "racism" in the run up to that vote and after it too.

It's quite simple and the countries referenced are quite different in a few ways. Israel is a recent colony that was founded and relied upon immigration along very ethnic lines to form and grow. Australia and Canada are ex colonial nations founded upon and reliant upon immigration to survive. Those nations simply wouldn't exist without it. When such nations start to fill up like Israel, they dial back on their constant need for more bodies.

America another example. To get into America a century ago you just had to turn up to Ellis island with limbs intact and not riddled with TB and you were in. Today their criteria is a lot more stringent if you want to enter legally and because of the demographic shift in the country they've become more hardened against immigration, particularly non White immigration over the last couple of decades(today about half the babies born in the US aren't White, a few decades ago it was under 20%).

Sweden is not an ex colony, it's a European state and has about a decade or so on us as far as larger numbers of immigrants. Sweden that bastion of progressive thought and yet over half of Swedes polled want no more immigration, a third want the status quo to remain and only 14% want to increase numbers. There's bugger all positive about that and shows attitudes are hardening and I will bet they'll harden further. I'd like to see the difference in Swedish attitudes between urban and rural Swedes. Modern Multiculturalism is an almost entirely urban phenomenon and that's where all the problems lay.

TL;DR? One can't compare ex colonies that were founded upon and required immigration to survive and European nations that didn't. There is a very different set of dynamics going on. Never mind that those self same ex colonies don't exactly have a great record with regard to interethnic strife and still do.

Aren't we an ex colony?

Wibbs wrote: »

None from Africa or the Middle East for a start. It seems they're biased towards east Asians and Whites.

So why don't we just say that. That you believe Africans and people from Muslim countries are the problem.
I presume you stated Whites in there to indicate you believe the South Africans who migrate to Australia are mainly white.
Although I have no data for that so will have to take your word.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

In what way?

Demographics of Australian population
Total Australian-born 17,836,000
Total foreign-born 7,529,570
England England 986,460
Mainland China Mainland China[C] 677,240
India India 660,350
New Zealand New Zealand 570,000
Philippines Philippines 293,770
Vietnam Vietnam 262,910
South Africa South Africa 193,860
Italy Italy 182,520
Malaysia Malaysia 175,920
Sri Lanka Sri Lanka 140,260
Scotland Scotland[D] 133,920
Nepal Nepal 117,870
South Korea South Korea 116,030
Germany Germany 112,420
Greece Greece 106,660
United States United States 108,570
Hong Kong Hong Kong SAR[E] 101,290

Again, the thread is about multiculturalism. Look at that list, how many are born in Africa or the middle East, the 2 regions that tend to bring the largest problems when a sizeable number of immigrants, particularly low skilled ones, arrive? It has been said many many times on this thread that SE Asian cultures tend to not being with them many problems. European culture and Australian culture is very similar.

Also, with Australian immigration, they tend to only people that they need to come. So will only take in lower skilled immigrants if there are actual jobs for them to go into. This reduces the likely that these immigrants will end up poor, and all the social problems that arise as a result of that.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Aren't we an ex colony?

Nope. We were ruled by a foreign power, as have a few now sovereign nations in Europe, but the nation and its peoples existed before and after that and were the majority throughout. It was tried with the Plantations and that didn't exactly go well did it? Of course Australia, America and Canada etc had their own native peoples too, but were near replaced by the European colonists and today are minorities and are on the margins in their originally native land. That never happened in Ireland, or Sweden, or Germany, or Italy. Again to compare ex colonial nations that were founded and survived on mass immigration to European states is mindbogglingly simplistic. Never mind that those same nations had their own favoured flavour of immigrants. Usually WASP in background. Black, Brown and Yellow, not nearly so much. And not nearly so much today still.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Hold up there Steven I am engaging in good faith. I did not present the data I am merely reviewing the data from a link provided by someone else. Please keep your abuse to yourself it's really not civil.

It was not meant as abuse. Apologies if it came across that way, but I was merely repeating what others have said, and was giving an example as to why.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

So why don't we just say that. That you believe Africans and people from Muslim countries are the problem.
I presume you stated Whites in there to indicate you believe the South Africans who migrate to Australia are mainly white.
Although I have no data for that so will have to take your word.

South Africa has suffered from a lot of White flight from the country since Black Africans gained power(and fair enough it's their bloody country). It's been termed the Great Migration. To the degree that it's not just the Whites leaving, increasingly younger Professional Black south Africans are now wanting to get out of the place.

This is why unskilled workers are not a good addition to this or any european country,
Australia have the right idea, I have no doubt because the australian government is doing what a proper government should do and put its own welfare and that of its citizens first, some wannabe woke liberal will try to claim its all racism or some other nonsense.

Pity we did not have a government that would represent the people that put them in power in the first place

Wibbs wrote: »

South Africa has suffered from a lot of White flight from the country since Black Africans gained power(and fair enough it's their bloody country)..

This is another thing that irritates me when some people contradict themselves.

When you hear this "well its their country"....any white person born these days in south aftrica is as south african as any black born there. Not you Wibbs, but people in general who spout that as if it holds some weight.

Any person who thinks it belongs to just blacks, then surely would have to think Ireland belongs to whites then, and any black people born here in ireland are not Irish otherwise they are contradicting themselves.

I know black , asian and oriental people not only born here, but their parents born here, they are Irish, simple as that, and if you are born in south africa, black or white you are south african, this notion that because they are white its not their country now is obsolete

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

This is why unskilled workers are not a good addition to this or any european country,
Australia have the right idea, I have no doubt because the australian government is doing what a proper government should do and put its own welfare and that of its citizens first, some wannabe woke liberal will try to claim its all racism or some other nonsense.

Pity we did not have a government that would represent the people that put them in power in the first place

You do know non eu immigrants need to have a visa to come to Ireland, just like Australia?
And Australia take in asylum seekers & refugees, just like Ireland?

Big difference going on. South Africa was a White colony formed on the back of invasion and the harsh suppression of Black native peoples that lasted right up to the 90's.

bubblypop wrote: »

You do know non eu immigrants need to have a visa to come to Ireland, just like Australia?
And Australia take in asylum seekers & refugees, just like Ireland?

I do

, but they are more strict than here.

I am all for people coming here to work, go to all the restaurants, see the foreigner cooks, staff, go to the hospitals see the different nationalities all working, all welcome additions to this country.

My issue is the thousands of unskilled workers with no jobs coming here from places like lagos, ending up on housing estates living on handouts, that I pay for, whilst our own citizens on the housing list get jumped.

And poor people with no prospects are more likely to resort to crime, its not rocket science.

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

It was not meant as abuse. Apologies if it came across that way, but I was merely repeating what others have said, and was giving an example as to why.

Steven I can only review the links presented in front of my and ask questions of it. Unlike many in this thread I am always willing to have any preconceived ideas challenged. I hopr I have proven this by reading all the numerous links and studies presented. As evidenced now by the fact that i read a link and began querying the data.

You effectively called me simple minded and even a simple minded person like me can understand that is meant s an insult.

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

I do

, but they are more strict than here.

I am all for people coming here to work, go to all the restaurants, see the foreigner cooks, staff, go to the hospitals see the different nationalities all working, all welcome additions to this country.

My issue is the thousands of unskilled workers with no jobs coming here from places like lagos, ending up on housing estates living on handouts, that I pay for, whilst our own citizens on the housing list get jumped.

And poor people with no prospects are more likely to resort to crime, its not rocket science.

Justin the unskilled/uneducated part was not supported by the study wibbs linked yesterday in relation to Africans and Muslim country Asians.

So recent posts have indicated that most posters do not have an issue with multiculturalism so long as it excludes black Africans and Asian Muslims. Would this be fair to say?

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Steven I can only review the links presented in front of my and ask questions of it. Unlike many in this thread I am always willing to have any preconceived ideas challenged. I hopr I have proven this by reading all the numerous links and studies presented. As evidenced now by the fact that i read a link and began querying the data.

You effectively called me simple minded and even a simple minded person like me can understand that is meant s an insult.

You were not called simple minded. Listen, I have apologised if it came across as abuse. I can't do anymore than that.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

So recent posts have indicated that most postets do not have an issue with multiculturalism so long as it excludes black Africans and Asian Muslims. Would this be fair to say?

where is the proof people have specifically targeted those groups ?

I personally dont care what color, sex, creed, etc anyone is if they come here and work and contribute.

by the same token I dont care what color sex creed etc anyone is if the come here to sponge, it is not a race issue, its a financial issue, but because it does not suit the agenda of some it is being twisted to make it appear that is is a race issue

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

I know black , asian and oriental people not only born here, but their parents born here, they are Irish, simple as that, and if you are born in south africa, black or white you are south african, this notion that because they are white its not their country now is obsolete

Yes, well, it's only in western countries is there the belief that foreigners can settle in a western country and fully integrate into the host culture. Virtually no other nation outside of the main western sphere of culture believes the same. South Africa was never really part of that sphere playing it's own game, the same way that Israel did.. hovering on the edges of western culture but remaining distinctly different.

Since South Africa reverted to being control by Black people, it's given up any pretense of holding to western cultural beliefs. (hence the wide range of reverse discrimination to reinforce and secure the position of Black people at all levels of society)

You can gain citizenship in other countries, but to natives you will always be a foreigner. Irrespective of skin color... it goes much deeper than that, with the focus on cultural/historical awareness.

I don't think people really appreciate just how different western culture is to others...

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

So recent posts have indicated that most posters do not have an issue with multiculturalism so long as it excludes black Africans and Asian Muslims. Would this be fair to say?

Nope. Not even close, and completely skips over the reams of pages on the topic.

Invidious

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Interestingly apart from Israel the other 3 from the top 4 countries for immigrants in their country in the study are not overwhelmingly negative.

You've claimed that immigration is viewed positively in Europe. But the Pew Research Center study shows that the majority (51 percent) of Europeans want fewer or no more migrants coming into their countries, while 35 percent want about the same number, and only 10 percent want more.

If immigration were perceived as such a positive thing, surely more than 10 percent would want more of it?

Another issue here is the effort to represent those who want fewer immigrants in their countries as the "far right," when that's actually the majority position now across Europe.

Invidious wrote: »

You've claimed that immigration is viewed positively in Europe. But the Pew Research Center study shows that the majority (51 percent) of Europeans want fewer or no more migrants coming into their countries, while 35 percent want about the same number, and only 10 percent want more.

If immigration were perceived as such a positive thing, surely more than 10 percent would want more of it?

Another issue here is the effort to represent those who want fewer immigrants in their countries as the "far right," when that's actually the majority position now across Europe.

Isn't that just the European countries in that study and not all European countries?