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What's next.

MisterJinx

Hi, I'm looking for some suggestions on next training blocks I could do. Once I've worked it out with hopefully some input from the boards community I'll log the progress back in here.

Background, M43, starting running 4 years ago with a couch to 5K. Used to run in primary school and community games and a little cross country in secondary school without a single medal to my name. DOB and development cycle put me behind my peers and I couldn't compete so I gave up. Sports tapered off by college and spent the next 20 years as a dedicated pack a day smoker and had a ball generally but wouldn't have treated the body very well. Standard mid life crisis when looking in the mirror and considering my lifestyle and what kind of a role model I wanted to be for my kids. Haven't looked back since and got into tri 3 years ago and we, as a family, are all now really active and enjoying it.

I've basically just completed a 12 week base build where the purpose was to increase the frequency of my runs and weekly mileage. Almost all the running was kept in zone 2 to avoid any injury and I've successfully got myself up to running 4/5 times per week and the weekly average distance of 45/50km (from last years 1/2 runs and ~15k per week) and I topped out with a 20 mile LSR 2 weeks ago. It's not a dissimilar block than KSU's base/beginner marathon plans which I came across recently here.

In the last couple of weeks I've tapered a bit and in the run's i've done I've added just a little tempo to them i.e not watched the HR and/or added some speed just at the end of the run.

I did do the 1 mile and 5k TT's but didn't do any serious amount of intervals or speed work just a couple of session before each to get a feel for the pace.

Goals:
This year was to be all focused on going long, Half IM and first Marathon so those goals will be pushed into next year.
I want to go sub 20 for 5K at this stage and was very close in the 5kTT.
In Tri I under-index in the run and it's a weakness I'd like to address.
Keeping enjoying it and keep improving.

I would really like raise my base pace across all distances as that is where I struggle and manage my pacing better generally as I start off way too fast. The long and short of it is that I'm probably all fast twitch and want to convert the speed across longer distances.

So what's next? Are their some standard training blocks of 4/8/12 weeks I could look to do now? I'm not expecting races this year so I think it's a good chance to work on getting the most out of my running and improving as my times are all probably very soft compared to the 1 mile TT which is also probably undercooked considering how I ran it. I am fairly structured and like to have milestones in place and be working towards something tangible.

Times and AG for reference (using runbundle.com)
1 mile TT 5:32 AG 81.5%
5K 20:03 AG 69.85%
10K 42:39 AG 66.51%
HM 1:36:42 AG 63.51% first and only

Thanks for any suggestions you can make

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MisterJinx

Monday 15th rest day, walked the dogs to the vet

Tuesday 16th 13k, 70% in Z2 @5:32: little stride finish to open the legs out.
Wednesday 17th 13K, 70% in Z2 @5:40: little stride finish again
Thursday 18th 15.5K tempo 70% in Z3 @5.12: didn't look at HR or pace for the first time in a long time just went of feel and progression for the last 3km.
Friday off
Saturday 20th 8.6K, planned interval session, 1.5k WU then 800m, 1k, 600m, 400m @ 3k/5k pace. Took stretches of straight road with a cycle lane.
Sunday 21st: 45K on the bike, only second cycle in 2 months, blustery and hard going..

First week with any real pick up of the tempo in a long time. Legs feeling it today but probably more from being on the bike.

crisco10

That's a great 1 mile time compared to your others...

Would you be tempted by something like the Irish Runner virtual 10 miler at the end of August? Obviously only a virtual race but owuld give you a target race further up the distance chart?

Plenty of ~8 week long 10 mile training plans out there I'm sure...

MisterJinx

crisco10 wrote: »

That's a great 1 mile time compared to your others...

Yeah that is really the issue, I'm not converting well to longer distances. I do intend to have another crack at it though over the next 2 weeks

crisco10 wrote: »

Would you be tempted by something like the Irish Runner virtual 10 miler at the end of August? Obviously only a virtual race but owuld give you a target race further up the distance chart?

I'd think about it but i'm not sure about TT's on the longer distances, the 5K was hard enough to hold the concentration and the roads were very quiet. It might be very difficult to hold the pace and find a suitable route but i'll take a look.

crisco10 wrote: »

Plenty of ~8 week long 10 mile training plans out there I'm sure...

I'll take a search thanks

MisterJinx

So this hasn't gone well

start a log, get a knock

Went out of any easy run on Monday, very easy pace, legs a bit stiff but left ok until I hit 5K and had to pull up with a big knot in my calf. Came to a complete halt and had to stretch it out. Tried to run again and it was still locked so stretched again and thankfully got moving enough to turn back for home at a slow trot....... Just shows you how careful you have to be when adding in more effort. Between the intervals and being back on the bike I'd say it should have been a rest day, too late now. Have used voltirol a few times and had a foam roller at home so have tried that it. Seems a little better today but not good enough to run on. Will leave off running now until next week, have a swim and a cycle lined up for Friday and Saturday and hopefully they won't antagonise it.

MisterJinx

So a week off running although Monday was very exciting! Went over to the Run hub and did a gait analysis and picked up a new pair of trainers. Gait analysis was interesting and confirmed the over-pronation that I had from a quick one about 4 years ago before when I picked up my first pair of Asics. Also was able to see my right hip drop which I've suspected over the last few months doing the LSRs so it was good to see that on the screen, points to having to work on my hamstrings ( which are frighteningly inflexible in any case) and glute on my right side.

Tried on about five pairs mizuno, brooks, saucony and Hoka. It was very close between the Brooks Adrenaline and the Hoka Arahi as both of those straightened out the gait best, very light and comfortable and plenty of room in the toe box to help with the black toenails! Went for the Hoka's in the end although the Brooks very very nice too and I have some vouchers so might go looking for a deal somewhere so I have 2 pairs on the go rather than just always running in one pair at a time.... Also tried on the Brooks Ravenna and really like them and might look down the line at getting these as an interval or race shoe as they were very light and had a raised sole and higher arch which kept me more on my toes and would be great for speed work.

Anyway, went out Monday for a 5k in the old trainers, very easy and the calf held up on the run. A little stiff at the top of the calf when I got home but stretched it. Backs of my legs are generally stiff at the moment and I suspect it's from being on the bike a little for some errands and doing a fair bit of walking over the last few days.

Going to try the new trainers this evening on a short easy one

MisterJinx

MisterJinx wrote: »

Going to try the new trainers this evening on a short easy one

Didn't go well, calf went again. Got going and ran home with some pain but wasn't right. Booked the physio and stopped running.

First physio visit and went ok, no real damage and diagnosis was adding too much stimulus in the previous weeks training. Got some exercises and some general great other points and tips on getting some other muscles firing and working better. Another week off but got a bike in, HR stayed stubbornly low even though effort was high

Sunday 13th - Was supposed to wait until seeing the physio on Tuesday but had to get moving at this stage and everything was feeling fine. Warm outside and a misty rain, couldn't have asked for a better way to get back and the mood was infinitely better once home. Also marked out a couple of hills in a local park, a 4% and a 10%... (14K @ 5.40/km)

Monday 14th - Pool swim

Tuesday physio - all you need to hear is that you are fine and that you can get back at it, nothing serious and some more exercises to get co-contractions working better and some better hip movement.

Now that life is moving more since lockdown ended there are a lot more organisation and co-ordinations required in the daily schedule, it was still busy either way though, so now trying to slot the things I enjoy in without it being an issue at home so looking at following the plan below, roughly based on on boards graduate 5/10k plan but to suit my availability and slotting in the appropriate times for the sessions

Monday - Swim
Tuesday - 60 minute easy run @ 5:30->6 min per km
Wed - alternating Hills & Intervals CV @4:10, AP @3:55, Vo2Max @3:50
Thursday - bike
Friday - Tempo @ 4:35 or Threshold @ 4:20 min per km
Saturday - usually too busy for training
Sunday - LSR capped at 2 hours @5:30 per km

I'll progress each of the Wednesday and Friday sessions in line with the Grads 5/10K plan and as things always change I'll aim to just add in 60 minute easy runs should some of the other activities fall out. I'm not sure right now how Friday will work out but we'll see.

MisterJinx

Thursday 16th - Bike
Friday 17th - Swim
Both starting to come back again and feeling better than the first few session

Sunday 19th - MLR with hills (15k). This was supposed to be a LSR but I didn't have the time so shortened it and added in the hills. I have 3 different hills ranging from 4% upwards and from about 120m to 200m so all challenging. 2 efforts over each to give em a baseline and enjoyed them. Couldn't manage to get the HR back on track through for the rest of the run so finished stronger uphill home for the last 1.5K.

Monday 20th - Recovery run @6min/km - 6k. Tired legs and tried to keep this very slow.

Tuesday 21st MLR - MLR @ 5.45min/km - 9K. This was hard work. Legs were tired and I never really got into it at all. Normally i'd run these at @5.30 and i was tired by the end, that would be the hills.

Wednesday 22nd - This was to be an intervals session but decided against it. I was tired still and didn't want to risk an injury running hard so 5k @6min/km pace.

Thursday 23rd - easy bike 50km

Sunday - LSR in the PP 20km @5.45min/km. Was really looking forward to this and had 2 hours so ran to the PP, did a lap and home. It took me a good 6km before the legs felt good and the next 6km was nice. Started to tire a little from 12 to 15 but picked up again but the 3 or 4k were tough enough going and even considered stopping at exactly 20k and walking the final 500 meters home... It's amazing as I was knocking these out of the park 6 weeks ago and would feel great with lower HR and faster pace and feel I could keep going but there you go!

Side notes: The PP really is such a great amenity, it's so nice to run in and there are always new nooks and crannies to explore each time I go as I like to stick on the trails and woods. I've been going here since I was very little but it's only since using it for training that I've really appreciate it as much, so glad Dublin has it.

The Hoka's are not trail shoes! I didn't feel that they held up anything as well as the Kayano's did in the grass and tracks. Even on wet days the grip on the road isn't brilliant, they really feel like a fair weather racer and for shorter distances as opposed to a go anywhere do anything shoes. I was also acting like a big woos trying to keep my new trainers clean and jumping over the mud..!!! and i wound up with a blister which if the first in a couple of years.

Luckily for me I got the last pair of last years Brooks in Elveries on sale and they were my size so I have an alternative for this type of run and half price :-)

This week will be choppy and next week is holidays so I think a couple of easy run and intervals on Wednesday are the aim

MisterJinx

Wednesday 29th - club session of 8x400's but slightly short...
This was a good session and delighted to be running with people again. You do tend to put much more effort in when there are others around you and i like the shorter stuff. Based on the paces (cause it was short) went form 3:35min/k down to 3:05min/k.

This is some food for thought and if I was to do the mile TT again would give me a target of 5.20 for the mile if I held a 3:20min/k pace which should be manageable on a good day and if I was able to control the starting pace.

Saturday 1st August - 10km easy - exploring the countryside on holiday.
Friday 7th August - 14Km easy - still exploring the lanes in the countryside
Monday 10th - 10km easy with a faster finish.

In a quandary on what to do tomorrow, should be hills but might try to get to club intervals on Wednesday, will see how the legs feel tomorrow and decide. Back to back intensity isn't good however feel i'm in a stronger position now than a few weeks ago with some good rest from running on holidays although a full belly from lots of take away which is a special treat :-)

MisterJinx

August 12th. club session. warm up then 5 mins at @HM pace, 4 mins at 10K pace and 1 min at 5K pace (x4).

Found this very tough, wasn't able to hit my 5K pace of 4min/km and all paces were slower than expected. Overall 9.5km @4.36 pace which would be slower than if I ran a 10k at a steady pace. Have always found transitioning between pace very difficult and would prefer to keep consistent and get a rythm however it's good to get out of the comfort zone and try these things in order to improve but this would be a least favourite session!

August 13th - bike 55K

August 14th - 13km @5.40min/k in the beautiful sunsine @hr @ 143 which is higher than usual for this time and distance but it was a long week and warm weather.

August 16th - LSR - 22.5Km @ 5.33 min/km HR 140 avg. PP again over the around the trails and forests. Weather wasn't brilliant but enjoyable run.

August 18th - Bike with my wife 65K

August 19th Run with my wife 11.5K @ 6.19min/k HR 133 avg. Got absolutely soaked in the downpour and had to collect the kids from Cul Camp along the way as they were expecting further downpours and thunder.

20th, stood up from the couch and the lower back went into complete spasm. Had a sideways lump across my lower back for 3 days. It's a recurring issue for me and usually happens when I haven't had much S&C or Core work which I've not been getting since lockdown. Going to have to build that into the routine for at least once a week in order to keep it at bay. Got one of those heat patch belts and it worked wonders.

30th Getting over the back issue, crazy week in work and kids back to school, have been bet into the screen and desk and felt pains all down my right leg for the end of the week however was determined to get out on this Sunday. Wasn't sure how I would feel however once out the legs had loads of bounce and felt good. Only had an hour so decided for some tempo intervals along the lumpy park. 4 intervals, 2 just sort of a mile and 2 just over a mile @ somewhere between 5 and 10k pace but hard to judge with the hilly terrain however mile @4:18min/k, 1.4k @4:18min/k, 1.4k@4.19min/k and mile @4.12min/k. Surprisingly nice and consistent and a good solid workout. Off the pace here in terms of my 20 min 5K back in May however summer is usually a write off in terms of training with family commitments etc so this is not bad considering everything that has been going on.

Mulling on the training now and I need to do more than the low HR efforts to build up more strength and pace. Was looking at youtube and periodised training was discussed and probably had the 80/20 rule slightly wrong in my calculations in that the 80/20 can be over the course of the year and not just each week so probably time to do more intervals and hills and cut down on the longer easier runs.

Been saying it for weeks now but 1 mile and 5k TT's are on the horizon now that a better routine is in place. My only remaining race was cancelled so these have to be the aim in order to stay motivated and moving.

MisterJinx

Monday 31st 9.5k @5.35 min/k avg HR 142 around the roads. Nothing but a run to clear the head after the day and nice and easy after the tempo session on the Sunday. No ill effects on the legs or with the back.

Tuesday - technical support for my aunt!

Wednesday - was supposed to be intervals but work was very busy and with the exception of 30 minutes lunch didn't move from the home office and at 6pm didn't feel like saying I was heading out for a run to the family so we had dinner instead.

Thursday - 60km bike, nice ride and was with some faster riders so pushed along the pace which was great for a change and felt like a good workout.

Friday - Hills 10 x hill sprints. After missing Wednesday I really wanted to get out so squeezed this in before the taxi runs to various activities.

Used the Hoka's for this as it was a speed session however it started to rain as I left for the hilly park. They are simply no good in the rain, very little grip and going up the hills I was loosing traction on the tarmac. To combat this I had to take to raising the knees higher rather than curling the toes and gripping as I do when going fast which is probably better form and beneficial for technique but overall I won't take these out again in the wet.

Generally good session, 9km's with 10 hills, jog down and 1 minute rest. Quads really felt it on the way home.

Sunday 6th 13km very easy run @6min/k avg HR 141. Just a really nice run, weather was beautiful, didn't have time to go round the PP so just enjoyed this. Legs felt great and was thinking that perhaps I'm an every second day runner rather than every day based on how I felt on each run this week. The hard sessions are fine with me but running every day does seem to take the bounce out of my legs. I got a copy of the Science of running as an ebook after I say someone else's log mention it in relation to fast twitch/slow twitch and had a quick scan but must go back and read it and see if there is anything interesting or applicable in it.

By this stage 1 of the kids has had a cold and passed it to the other one who has gotten it worse and now passed it on to me! Looking at the class whatsapps it looks like nearly a third of the kids have had or are coming down with something already, to be expected but amazing how quickly things spread even with all the precautions etc...

MisterJinx

So the head cold took a full week to clear, little one was out of school for 3 days, feels like such a shame when they have only gone back but hey ho. Simply couldn't and didn't feel like running for the week.

Sunday 16th, went for a long run and took the little one on her bike. Lovely day and we went into the PP for a loop around and home. Luckily my wife reminded me to bring some food for her to taped a bar onto her bike and we set off. Normally I would stop on these runs but we took a few short breaks so that she could rest up and enjoy it rather then it being a trudge. We both flagged a bit in the middle session but once we were at the Ashtown gate and on the way home we both felt good. Stuck in 2 fast km towards the end just to up the intensity however it stopped the chat between us so happy to have been easy all the way 21K @ 5.51min/k pace.

Was in the office Monday and Tuesday for the first time since lockdown. With new restrictions that's now off again. Was looking forward to being out a little and changing up the routine but at least I got out and saw a few work colleagues in person which was nice.

Monday 14th 1K swim on the way home

Signed up for a long bike session this weekend so 14th and 20th bike 129K in total. Avoided the section of the R108 where the accident happened on Saturday. Cycled very regularly on that stretch of road and it's dangerous, try to avoid as much as possible however was on it on Thursday evening. Had my wife very nervous on Sunday and me extra vigilant when out. Poor man and his family, puts thing in perspective.

MisterJinx

It's been a little while! Well I got my long cycle in which was really good and delighted with the achievement +120Km for the first time, felt good the whole time and sorted out some nutrition on the bike which made a world of difference.

Decided to pick up where i left off then and get back running.

Decided then that I might go for the 1mile TT in the next week or so was thinking the Wednesday would be good so went out to see how the legs were on the Tuesday

22/09 8.5Km @ 5.40km/m there was nothing in the legs at all. Dead. Had the long bike ride coming up so there was no point in trying to flog a dead horse.

29/09 same as above after the long bike ride, felt fine but not bouncy which was understandable considering the long bike ride.

01/10 Decided on a tempo 5K to see where I was not at, 5Km @ 4.25k/min. First time I had run at this pace in quite a while to it hurt but wasn't maxed out.

02/10 7.5K @ 5.30k/min pace just to stretch out the legs nothing special.

03/10 - walking the dogs. As I'm looking one way they decided to pull in the completely opposite direction while I'm not prepared....... 3 weeks of back pain, lovely.

MisterJinx

3 week out and pretty miserable but work was very busy and I did a lot of walking the dogs to keep moving so it wasn't all lost. Started back out again and then got onto a 10k plan and now into week 3. Plan is a 10K TT in the 3rd week of December. Not following the plan totally as it's 5 days running a week so sticking to 4 days at the moment.

HR and paces are all a bit higher and lower respectively than over the summer but it's good to be moving again.

25/10 10.5K zone 2
01/11 8.5K zone 2
04/11 6K zone 2 lunch time run - this is the way forward in order to get some fresh air and daylight. Too hard now in the evening to motivate myself to get out
06/11 6K moderate tempo @ 5.15k/min
10/11 6K tempo @ 4.48k/min with some strides
11/11 6K easy with 8x10 sec strides
13/11 easy 6K
15/11 13K Zone 2 @5.44k/min
17/11 easy with 8 x strides @ 800m pace
18/11 4 x 3 mins @ under 5k pace
19/11 active recovery @6.30 k/min pace - just to keep moving
22/11 12K zone 2 @ 5.40 k/min - lovely Sunny Sunday, loads of people out walking and enjoying the day. Busy along the canal so doubled back on myself.

Oh and passed 1,000km for the year during this stretch. That is nearly 50% of my total running distance in one year since I started logging in 2017 and 2016 before I recorded or had a watch can only have been less than 200km for the year so not a bad achievement. I don't think I could get to 1,000 miles by year end but you never know.....

MisterJinx

24/11 Evening run this time, 6k easy with 10 x fast strides at the end. Dark, wet and cold out but really enjoyed it.

25/11 Interval run, easy 3k warm up then 2,5K @ roughly 10K pace which worked out at 4.20m/km pace. After done some strides in the 3rd km to warm up I could feel the lactate from yesterdays run so I wasn't expecting much and I did find this very tough even on such a short run at only a 10k pace but I definitely felt the benefit of having to push on "tired" legs and working through it.

Focus now over the next few weeks needs to be on the longer intervals at 10k and 5k pace in order to be in good shape for the TT, although my wife wants to do a 10k TT one on the same day and asked me to run with her so I'll pace her on the day and do my own a few days later.

The rest of the week and the weekend was a write off with life and stuff so back on it this week....

MisterJinx

30/11 easy lunchtime run 6K @Zone 2 @5.50m/k

1/12 9k @4.50m/k tempo. Lunch run with a friend, so nice to be running with company and it's quite amazing how easy the pick up in pace felt compared to running on your own, chatted the whole way.

lots of life in-between.....

06/12 Out on Sunday morning, freezing cold and foggy, beautiful weather (for me) to run in, I really like running in the cold weather although this was meant to be a LSR i had to pick up the pace in order to stay warm. Was in the shorts still but brought gloves and a light running jacket, took them off after 6k which shows how long it took to warm up. Took the next 7 k @~10K pace. Really struggle on the last 2k home, up the hill, it's steep enough and I started to think about food, allot, I was probably bonking TBH, no toast this morning so total fasted run....

13K, first 6K @5m/k, 7K @4.30m/k pace, struggled up the hill but gap pace was still 4.30

07/12 10K @ 5.15m/k, picked up the last 2km to 10k pace. Needed a run after work, very cold again and even went with a light woolly hat but kept with the shorts :-) I see people doing double takes but my legs don't get cold...

MisterJinx

And the last one of the year and what a year it's been!!!!

09/12 - 6k lunchtime run, from what I remember it was slow and leggy....

11/12 - 10k after work and another stress buster. Cold so kept it tempo @5.10m/k pace.

13/12 Sunday LSR, decided again to keep mixing up the pace on this run 6k @5.30m/k pace warm up, 5K @ 4.30m/k pace and 2k home up the hill. I'm liking this instead of steady easy running all the time. After doing so much LSR pace i'm finding I need to get used to the comfortably uncomfortable and the bodies reaction to it, once you are a few minutes in you settle and get on with it and it's not as hard as you think, does the confidence good to know you can do it.

14/12 & 16/12 2 very easy trots around the block at lunchtime

19/12 10K pace setter for her glorious self at the bull wall. The wind and weather was terrible so she put getting a PR out of her mind. The first 1K was horrific but the wind behind us head down towards howth felt great. The path then ended and she barrelled up a grass embankment to run on the grass, big mistake, she lost all her rhythm, turned into cross winds and the wheels fell off for 3k. With 3k to go she got her rhythm back and we push home against the wind for a strong finish in 53 minutes. It was a struggle and I think she was disappointed however the conditions weren't with us and it was a triumph to finish. I'll see if she would like to do a 5k TT in the new year.

20/12 13K with the same 5K in the middle at higher pace. Feet were sore I think from the socks I was wearing and same trainers as the previous day's 10kTT which while was comfortable pace wise was a fair effort with the wind. Beautiful sun shine out and I suspect the hangovers were in full flow as it was quiet considering I only headed out at 12. Nice to see however that the 5K interval at what I perceived to be 10K pace again was this time at 4:20 m/k pace which is an improvement on the last couple of runs on the route which were 4:30 pace.

That's probably me for the year, if i get out great, if I don't I won't worry about it, think I've done a fair bit this year. Got a new watch and it's telling me that I'm as fit as a 20 year old and that I need to take a break and rest, can't complain about that

Year to date 114 runs, 1,164 km's, 1 mile & 5k PB's and a tone of endurance built up. I think as well that I've found the right cadence for me at the moment at least with 4 runs a week, it seems to balance fitness and freshness. Looking forward to next year and seeing what it brings, the only way is up

(and to beat those 2 PB's from this year...)

MisterJinx

I had a nice Christmas :-) Did nothing, saw very few people except the in-laws on Christmas day and kept the head down and eat and drank to my hearts content which was exactly to plan and really enjoyed the down time.

Slowly slowly got back into training without pushing it as I felt I needed to want it again rather than pushing it just to be starting early doors in January.

01/01 - New years day easy run 13k
10/01 - 14.8k easy run, just stretching out the distance a little.
Both runs at 5.30m/k pace or there or there abouts

11/01 Back on the bike - 45 minutes on the turbo
12/01 slow recovery 6k at lunch time

The club released a 7 week running plan - decided to hop on and see what improvement I can make on the 5K time. Took the week to get myself mentally prepped for a 5K TT.

See next post

MisterJinx

I knew it would be painful and that I wouldn't get a time I was going to be overly happy with but I figure it is better to know where I am and see the time and put that impetus into the plan and improving.

Deciding on a location was difficult but picked a local park without many people in it due to the fact it's wind, a bit hilly and exposed which was going to make it a challenge in any case!

Picked the loops and set up the watch - new watch so lots of fiddling!!!
Headed off into the wind and as per usual, despite all my mental reminders and talking to myself to run conservatively for the first 2k I was out the door running at 3.30m/k pace for the first 500m but did slow it down quickly enough and got a rhythm at just under 4m/k pace.

First loop and up the hill was managed but difficult, second loop and I'm coming around to the hill again and I look at the distance, 3.76k and I'm gassed going up the hill, it's totally took the wind out of my sails and I'm despondent! I was slowing down to 4.30 pace getting up the hill and really no looking forward to the last 1.24k

My course planning wasn't that great when I realised my short final look had to go up the hill again to finish close to where I had left my gear.....

The watch tells me I've finished the workout set for 5K, do I hit the stop button or does it do it itself, the little frustrations of technology.

Strava tells me 5k in 20:58. I've a minute improvement to make up over the next 6 weeks to reach goal number 1 for 2021

MisterJinx

Probably then went a little too hard last week.

Recovery run Monday 7k @ 6:33 m/k
Bike on Tuesday and Thursday which was actually set too hard. Got off it on Thursdays session in a hoop but on the plus slide some of the high cadence work will stand to the running immensely

Friday was supposed to be 5x1K but only did 3 x 1K as the calves started to get sore and though caution was best.

WU 3x1k 3:48 3:51 3:57 WU
It was cold as well and I never really warmed up which is very strange for me as I'm usually really warm.

Sunday 24/01 - 15.5K easy run, very steady at 5.30m/k pace. HR all in Zone 2 until I took some suggery nutrition and it went through the roof.

Heart rate post to come next!

MisterJinx

So I was following another log, can't remember which and there was a discussion around HRV and using this instead of % of Max HR for Zone calculation.

This got me doing a little bit of research on the Garmin connect app and looking at various different methods for HR Zone calculation. Now I'm not a slave to these but do try and run my easy runs in Z2 and it keeps me in check.

Why i'm interested in this is I though I might use the resting HR (51) - Max HR as a way of calculating zones so I could probably up the pace some more on the LSR's and get a better placement for tempo runs.

So I was interested to see with the new garmin watch would it have different readings from my old TomTom. As the Tom Tom had recoded several high heart rates for me, 199, 200 & 201 all in races when it was hot i.e. anything above 25 degrees! These seemed high so I was always sceptical considering my max by the standard 220 - age should be 176. I had recorded 187 on the bike for similar conditions.

Also to note, I'm fair, not very hairy and keep the watch tight so based on research I think that I'm probably a fairly good subject in terms of getting a good optical HR reading.

So on the bike first during the week, it was a really hard session and I was totally spent by the end and it was max effort covering 45 minutes. Max HR on the watch was 179.

On the 5K TT which was just 20 minutes my max HR got to 192. There was probably a bit more there on this one if I had to keep running for another 10 minutes and it was warmer.

On Sunday's long run I took a cliff shot jelly. Full of sugar and only took it just as I thought I might be tired, normally I don't feed on these runs under 20K. So the HR climbed massively without changing pace or effort, it was an un-natural climb and totally related to the sweet and the HR hit 195 which I actually trust as I was still running very steady easy cadence.

So I have some questions on this
Is a running MAX HR always going to be higher than on the bike (I expect it would be due to the load bearing impact) and would ~15bpm be unreasonable?

I was looking at the Kovanan calculation - it looks to be very similar to the calculation Garmin connect made for Max - Resting HR - is it using this formula?

Does 195 seem completely strange? It might be wrong but if it's consistently wrong then I can use it to set the Zones for running and use the bike max HR separately as Garmin connect gives this option.

It does make a difference on the App as say +178 is Anaerobic top effort which it isn't so will tell me I'm working too hard when I'm not at that effort level.
Also it will raise my Zone 2 Cap to 149bpm from 142bpm which would give me more room to pace up the LSR's

shotgunmcos

A few things

Karvonen method or Heart Rate Reserve is good to use provided a solid understanding of your max, resting and target zone.

First Max: 192 on the 5kTT but 195 on your steady LR. Something obviously up there. Are you using wrist based HR or HR strap?

Next: 192 on 5k TT: your 20:58? You say you could have hit max with another 10 mins of running?! Either you were seriously under gassing the TT or you have a bit to learn about HR. Even if you hit your TT at 95% and finished on your knees thinking you could have got a little harder? If you straight away ran an all out 400m I bet you would see a new max. Its also possible you maxed on that hill and finished slowing down thinking you could give more...?

Next: Running HR zones are different to Bike HR zones. I used to get VO2 Max session from my triathlon coach that would near make me puke. I still wouldn't get within 5% of my max run HR.

Lastly:
It does make a difference on the App as say +178 is Anaerobic top effort which it isn't so will tell me I'm working too hard when I'm not at that effort level.
Also it will raise my Zone 2 Cap to 149bpm from 142bpm which would give me more room to pace up the LSR's

This would concern me. Even if you suddenly learned that your anaerobic threshold was higher than you originally thought, it would not suddenly mean you can boost your LSR pace!! :eek: Thats a recipe for disaster, even if, and I suspect its not, accurate HR readings. Add pace in segments and gradually to your LSR or better yet, enjoy running your LSR at lower effort knowing you are fitter.

Great to use the new watch and its data but important to understand that data before you make any significant change to your running.

MisterJinx

shotgunmcos wrote: »

First Max: 192 on the 5kTT but 195 on your steady LR. Something obviously up there. Are you using wrist based HR or HR strap?

It was all wrist based HR. So the Cliff shot kick in after 10/15 minutes and the HR shot up for no discernible additional fatigue or effort. I had seen this before after taking a shot of basically pure sugar when training for a half marathon.

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Next: 192 on 5k TT: your 20:58? You say you could have hit max with another 10 mins of running?! Either you were seriously under gassing the TT or you have a bit to learn about HR. Even if you hit your TT at 95% and finished on your knees thinking you could have got a little harder? If you straight away ran an all out 400m I bet you would see a new max. Its also possible you maxed on that hill and finished slowing down thinking you could give more...?

Yes 192 on this one. I was referring to something I had read where to get a true max HR you should be running flat out for 30 minutes where as my run was only 20. You are quite correct in saying that I had come up the hill and slowed down on the last 500m so there was more to give. I would have though another 5% was there, I wasn't on my knees panting.

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Next: Running HR zones are different to Bike HR zones. I used to get VO2 Max session from my triathlon coach that would near make me puke. I still wouldn't get within 5% of my max run HR.

This makes sense and is now what I have set up so the running max is set to 192 and the bike to 179

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Lastly:
It does make a difference on the App as say +178 is Anaerobic top effort which it isn't so will tell me I'm working too hard when I'm not at that effort level.

Also it will raise my Zone 2 Cap to 149bpm from 142bpm which would give me more room to pace up the LSR's

This would concern me. Even if you suddenly learned that your anaerobic threshold was higher than you originally thought, it would not suddenly mean you can boost your LSR pace!! :eek: Thats a recipe for disaster, even if, and I suspect its not, accurate HR readings. Add pace in segments and gradually to your LSR or better yet, enjoy running your LSR at lower effort knowing you are fitter.

On the anaerobic point my point was more in relation to when the watch had set itself as default with 176 as my MAX HR it will telling me that all my efforts were harder than they actually were. e.g. a Zone 3 tempo effort was coming in as an anaerobic effort etc. The new setting now is more reflective of the effort based on a higher HR MAX

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Also it will raise my Zone 2 Cap to 149bpm from 142bpm which would give me more room to pace up the LSR's[/I]

This would concern me. Even if you suddenly learned that your anaerobic threshold was higher than you originally thought, it would not suddenly mean you can boost your LSR pace!! :eek: Thats a recipe for disaster, even if, and I suspect its not, accurate HR readings. Add pace in segments and gradually to your LSR or better yet, enjoy running your LSR at lower effort knowing you are fitter.

Thanks for the concern :-) . So what I was really interested in was seeing whether there was a possibility of raising the Z2 cap that I try to keep to. If it is the case then I would see whether I could start to slowly up the pace of the LSR's. Currently all run at 5.30 m/k pace which is very comfortable. I have started putting more interval work into the routine now as last year was all LSR pretty much to improve endurance but I'll definitely keep mind that the improvement in LSR pace should come from the intervals rather than by increasing LSR pace by itself. The 5.30m/k is probably the bottom end of the pace bracket based on 5K pace so seeing if there was room to move there!

shotgunmcos

Hmm difficult to set zones off wrist based HR. Its notoriously volatile.

Your reading of zone is probably right. HR192 max would be in the ballpark of 149 Z2 cap. My own 187 HR max has a cap of 140.

A 30 minute tests is useful for finding both LT (Lactate Threshold) and Max HR.

Generally you need to pace evenly enough it so you build the pace gradually until you cannot maintain it near the end and literally bury yourself. Good chance if you start to fail at the end you hit max or near max and last 20min avg is probably close to LT.

Overall its better to have a HR strap to target max and zones and in turn training to those zones. If you want to train at HR or use Karvonen. Its worth it IMO. Keeps your easy, easy and can set ranges to control your sessions.

MisterJinx

Thanks for the input, appreciate it. I have found using the Zones help me keep the easy easy and having a cap, although I don't follow it religiously does keep me in check and means I've built up the mileage and frequency in a controlled way.

My issue is probably more around the high intensity efforts when going past RPE 7.5 onwards. I don't have a good sense of RPE 8,9 & 10 and can easily hit a 10 when aiming for an 8 and then it's game over for me. I don't use HR for those types of set, more pace, but still it take a lot of effort to make sure I don't blow up on those harder shorter efforts.

MisterJinx

Monday 25th - Recovery run - went out in the evening as lunching time is getting more difficult as started a new ole in work and it's gotten very busy as transition out of one and into another. It's going to be a busy year work wise!

Went a little longer than planned @6K @ 5.45m/km and then headed up to the "tack" to do some strides at the end, 4 x 200 meters. It's nice to do those strides, real active running, controlled and all the muscle groups working but controlled.

Tuesday - indoor bike 25K

Wednesday rest and Thursday missed the second bike due t a late meeting.

Friday, back up to the track, WU + 10 x 400's. For me this was a good success, although I did go a little fast on the first 2 reps it was relatively consistent, all 400's between 1:18 and 1:26. A few more sets like that and it should help control the pacing. Tough session and legs a little stiff afterwards.

Sunday 31st, LSR, weather was awful, windy, rainy, cold, had to do some cross country as the river was flooded in parts along the park and needed to get around. Only a very few people out and by the end was starting to regret the shorts but I did enjoy it all the same. 15K @ 5.30/k pace, avg HR141

shotgunmcos

What rest were you taking on the 400s? Was it walking, jogging?

78-86s is much faster than your current 5k pace.

MisterJinx

80 seconds rest between the 5x400's - as a jog walk, 5 minutes jog and then same again for the second set of 5.

I created a private segment for the ~160m strides on strava, it's not accurate to distance due to GPS accuracy & strava segment creation so I'll use them a relative to measure any improvements but they were 27,29,31,31 - not all out, between 2.4/k and 3.05/k

I recognise I have a disconnect between my top speed and the pace I can keep for longer efforts. My speed endurance is poor and my breathing can't keep up with the leg turnover so I have to concentrate to keep within the breathing capacity and not wind up gassed.

MisterJinx

Monday 1st - 7K with 5x strides at the end. Evening run and it was dark and cold but happy to get out.

Tuesday - Bike - hard effort, 45 mins

Wednesday rest - my watch beeped me saying it saw a pattern on my Wednesdays with very little activity - so less than 2,000 steps for the day.... This is what lockdown does, in normal times I'd be at 8,000 plus a bike commute every day..

Thursday - bike hard effort again, 1hr

Friday 5x800 - This was very tough. The aim was to run under 5K pace for these and thinking afterwards on why it was so hard there is definitely something there with doing 2 hard bikes during the week where I only had 1 the week before. 3:13 3:09 3:11 3:10 3:16 all under 5K pace but tough and I didn't have the right prescribed rest included and probably needed the extra 40 seconds. Except for the last one I was happy to have paced it fairly evenly and got it done.

Sunday 7th: Out a little later with the plan to put the tempo back into my long run. Wind was a big factor and had it in my face for the full 5K tempo section, bad planning! 13K with the tempo @~4:30 pace. Tired on the way home

This week I will keep the 2 bike sessions but have them as recovery spins only and take it easy but keep moving.

MisterJinx

Last week was a little bit of a write off compared to previous weeks due to a combination of factors.

Monday out for 7K in the freezing cold, I turned the corner and head into the icy wind and my teeth were chattering! I had a hat and gloves but probably needed a long sleeve under my wind breaker and it took me a full 4k before I was properly warmed up and the HR dropped to something normal for the pace. Eventually the HR dropped into the 130's and steady for home.

Tuesday, did take it easy on the bike just to stretch out the legs, 30 minutes in Zone 1.

Thursday I was supposed to bike again however had an evening zoom so it got cancelled.

Friday was going to be a session, wrapped up after a busy week at work (I know I was chatting on boards during the week but generally there was quite a lot to get through this week with the new role and the mental fatigue of the new job probably made me more tired than I expected). When I left the home office and wandered into the kitchen my wife had tea nearly ready, I didn't fight the option to take it easy, the weather was terrible as well.

Sunday morning and the weather was terrible again, a combination of a couple too many beers and wanting a complete down day and a bit of wimping out made the decision for me. I never though I'd feel bad about not getting my Sunday LSR in, how times have changed....

Monday, out for Friday's session instead of the recovery. I must say the few days rest did the legs the world of good and there was some nice bounce in the legs after a bit of a warm up.

The session wasn't overly difficult but I was really happy with how it went for a few reasons. The aim was 1K @5K pace, 4x400's and then 1K @5K pace but to pace the second 1K faster than the first one.

1K in 4.02
400's in 1:21 1:24 1:20 1:20
1K in 3:49

First reason to be happy was that I managed to pace it correctly to plan and finished the second 2nd K in a better time than the first. With the exception of the 2nd 400 where I met a little pedestrian traffic these were also paced well, not in the red and controlled.

Secondly I tried stand up straighter and to push my hips a little further forward on the efforts to get the foot strike a little more under my centre of gravity instead of striding out further and using the leg power to get to the desired pace. Trying this was based off a few youtube video's and I can see in the cadence data that when I did apply this technique that my cadence tipped over 185 on those sections. I think this is a change to keep working on.

Thirdly and in relation to the second was to try and control the breathing when the cadence was a little higher and not start to pant too much. For the last 400 and the final 1K I focused on getting a good breath OUT to disassociate the breathing with the cadence and keep this under control and in particular in the last 1K I did find that I was much more in control of the breathing for the pace and stage of the workout.

I think a quiet week did me good and looking forward to some more sessions over the next couple of weeks before the 5k TT

MisterJinx

MisterJinx wrote: »

I think a quiet week did me good and looking forward to some more sessions over the next couple of weeks before the 5k TT

Famous last words! After that last session on the 15th I was again doing millions of sitting during the week and on the Wednesday my lower back tweaked again, disheartening.... It actually put me in quite a funk. I had to skip the planned session on Friday and I had a session planned for Sunday but instead got out for an easy 8K which felt fine but still wasn't great.

The following week my motivation was poor TBH and went out on Wednesday for an easy run and it felt terrible, HR all over the place, poor pace, sore back and was having a real moan in my head all the way round. By the next day I was wondering why I was bothering at all....My wife offered that I could get out on Thursday unexpectedly and I declined......

Friday the 26th, it was now either get back on the saddle or let another week slide. Decided not to let it slide. Out for a planned session which I knew was going to be really hard, 5x1K. The long intervals are just hard, no matter how you are feeling going into it. Out to the usual spot and got going, not expecting much considering the lay offs and hoping I could hold close to target pace for the full 5 reps. K's were 4:00 3:51 3:51 3:59 4:03 off 2:30 rest. I was delighted

The final 2 look off but on the final one I felt strong and was actually able to up the pace for a stronger finish, for some reason however the watch didn't stop the interval at the same place it had done for the previous 4.

don't know why but had to run another 20 meters after stopping. Cost me a few seconds on the rep but I know how I was feeling and where it would have landed so was very happy all round with this and came home in a great mood. Confidence built....

Sunday 28th - 12K really easy. Did some loops around the park where I did the first 5K TT to see if there was a loop that didn't go up the hill 3 times. Found a better direction and start point so will use that. So many people out, it was great to see all the families on bikes and walking etc.

Tuesday 2nd March: Back for a session, stepped back a couple of weeks in the plan to repeat one of the sessions 400x5 (x2). I was expecting great things and the first set went well. Pared back the pace on the first one, second one was a little off but got the rhythm going 1:20 1:22 1:20 1:20 1:20 off 1:20 rest.

Was confident the next set would be just as good although running it in a different direction and like last time this direction is a little slower. On the 3rd rep I missed the start of the rep!! Was watching some kids on electric scooters eek - tried to catch myself back up which was a mistake and paid for it on the next rep too, I was shagged on the final rep. 1:22 1:24 1:27 1:30 1:24. A tale of two half's... Was disappointed with that second set, I though I would have been much more consistent.

But I did see something good when I came home and looked at the data. I had mentioned previously about trying to work on standing up straighter a keep the centre of gravity more aligned and not stretching into the pace but using the cadence to keep the pace up. Pic attached showing how the cadence has picked up from the same session with very similar times.