The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1

Recently, we've had the president of the GAA at the time of giving Dublin extra funding and the Leinster council chairman of the time expressing worry over what has resulted from the decisions they participated in. The latest Leinster council chairman should take note before it's too late!

As this thread has documented and as we know, the plan drawn up and funded by the GAA and taxpayers has transformed Dublin GAA. When you look at the system in closer detail, you can see why.

The influx of coaches aimed to increase playing numbers for the clubs they were hired for by going to primary and secondary schools within their area, improve the standards within the clubs through coaching themselves, coaching other coaches, having elite academies etc.

The registered playing numbers for clubs in Dublin were 30,000 and under for 8-18 year olds. Dublin were granted 1.5 million and above every year to develop this age group. Within this Dublin only scheme, clubs paid half the wages of coaches so every year close to 3 million was being spent on developing talent.

This granted nearly every club in Dublin access to a coach. Especially in the top divisions. The coach took direction from within the club and targeted areas identified by their employers. While this was ongoing, most other counties had 3-4 coaches trying to get around to as many areas as possible within their county. The advantages of the Dublin only scheme compared with the rest of Ireland is obvious.

What also is obvious is that this imbalance in funding and coaches leads to an imbalance when it comes to competition. Dublin GAA don't compete on a level playing field in any competition entered across grades and codes.

We know that Dublin have won around 100 titles post funding and have increased sponsorship and income off the back of it. Dublin GAA now spend close to 4 million per year on player development so any thoughts that this will end would appear to be well off the mark.

The original decision to overfund Dublin has snowballed and created a professional outfit operating in an amateur sport. Only games development funding has been looked at in this post, millions spent on team preparations, salaries, expenses etc come after this. Splitting Dublin is the only option we have.

FullBack Jam

ArielAtom wrote: »

Exactly, Dublin have always had the population advantage, that nothing new, they were always able to attract good sponsors that is nothing new, and he recognises that the chasing pack have a bit of work to do.

But he's not recognising the key point - that the chasing pack are not getting the financial support that Dublin received which allowed Dublin to kick-start into winning ways. It's a bit dismissive of them to just lecture them that they need to perform better, and get over the fact that Dublin got preferential treatment and they are not getting that.
Anyway, my point is that his comments don't provide any substance or insight into the problem. Just the old-fashioned "get over it" and bury the head in the sand.

flasher0030 wrote: »

What good points does he raise. He mentions that Dublin have advantages in terms of population and in terms of the finance they can raise.
And basically it's up to the chasing pack to raise their game. He doesn't mention the millions that Dublin received all those years ago to get them going on that success ladder. Money that is not provided to the other counties.
I don't see any substance in his comments.

Exactly, Dublin have always had the population advantage, that nothing new, they were always able to attract good sponsors that is nothing new, and he recognises that the chasing pack have a bit of work to do.

Strumms

maestroamado wrote: »

I know its in the wrong place for what it is being used for.
It would have being perfect for Dublin County location.

I think our proposed National Stadium was to be around Liiffey Valley, personally i would prefer abit farther out.
We should have one as i cannot think of a Country in EU that has not got one.
Our National Stadium is on SCR, not sure who uses it now.

It’s in a perfect location, the problem is that the transport links to it are so fûcking substandard..

Lots of other cities have stadia in reasonably central and high population centers.... Madrid, London being two that I’ve been to...difference is, they have great and suitable public transport to get people to and from the stadia... efficiently and safety...

Look at the Bernabéu in Madrid... similar size, in a similarly seriously built up area... SIX metro stops within 11 minutes walking distance, some closer.

There be the difference.

FullBack Jam

ArielAtom wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40214039.html

Here’s the take from the Leinster Council chair on the idea of splitting Dublin. Great article and he makes so many good points.

What good points does he raise. He mentions that Dublin have advantages in terms of population and in terms of the finance they can raise.
And basically it's up to the chasing pack to raise their game. He doesn't mention the millions that Dublin received all those years ago to get them going on that success ladder. Money that is not provided to the other counties.
I don't see any substance in his comments.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40214039.html

Here’s the take from the Leinster Council chair on the idea of splitting Dublin. Great article and he makes so many good points.

maestroamado

Dick Turnip wrote: »

You think Croke Park is in the wrong location being in Drumcondra, but would be right if it was in Blanchardstown?

What games would a national stadium serve Croke Park & the Aviva don't?

I know its in the wrong place for what it is being used for.
It would have being perfect for Dublin County location.

I think our proposed National Stadium was to be around Liiffey Valley, personally i would prefer abit farther out.
We should have one as i cannot think of a Country in EU that has not got one.
Our National Stadium is on SCR, not sure who uses it now.

Dick Turnip

maestroamado wrote: »

If Dublin want to build 60k stadium surely the GAA will fund it on their own.
This mistake was made by Government years ago.
The only good idea "Drumcondra Bertie" ever had was the National Stadium in West Dublin.
The GAA influence were allowed scupered this idea which for me was a big error.
Croke Park is unsustainable without concerts etc whic i have absolutely no problem with but it is just in the wrong place.
When vested interest have big influence in decisions ie will neever be right.
Dublin indeed do need a 40/50K capicity venue but there should be a National Stadium for bigger events for all national sports.
If it ever happens Croke park can be a wild-life santury.

You think Croke Park is in the wrong location being in Drumcondra, but would be right if it was in Blanchardstown?

What games would a national stadium serve Croke Park & the Aviva don't?

maestroamado

Strumms wrote: »

So should Dublin play at Parnell park maybe.....capacity 13,500 vs 80,000. When opposition fans get all excited about that, they sure won’t be excited when they try get a ticket, and can’t.

Dublin should build their own 60 thousand plus home ground ? Who pays for it ? You’d have the same dribblers then complaining if the Dubs were given funding to do that... so damned if they do, damned if the don’t... ultimately too...That would mean about 7 or 8 games tops in Croker a year, a proper white elephant.

If Dublin want to build 60k stadium surely the GAA will fund it on their own.
This mistake was made by Government years ago.
The only good idea "Drumcondra Bertie" ever had was the National Stadium in West Dublin.
The GAA influence were allowed scupered this idea which for me was a big error.
Croke Park is unsustainable without concerts etc whic i have absolutely no problem with but it is just in the wrong place.
When vested interest have big influence in decisions ie will neever be right.
Dublin indeed do need a 40/50K capicity venue but there should be a National Stadium for bigger events for all national sports.
If it ever happens Croke park can be a wild-life santury.

tritium wrote: »

Dublin have nowhere near one coach per club, you know this

Half of the coaches are in effect funded by the clubs themselves you know this too

I've already said that the clubs pay for half the wages of the coach in the Dublin only scheme. The rest is paid by taxpayers, the GAA and the Leinster council. This adds up to more than 30 million since 2002.

If Dublin have around 90 clubs and around 75 coaches, that is nearly one per club. Definitely nearly one per club for all the clubs in the top divisions.

Dublin are way overfunded and have access to far more coaches to anyone else. From 2015, Dublin only had 12% of the total of registered players aged 8-18.

Enquiring wrote: »

Dublin receive funding from their provincial council. You know this. The provincial funding for other counties leaves them with between 1 and 6 coaches. You know this. Dublin have far more coaches, nearly one per club, you know this. This was a Dublin only scheme. You know this. It has led to increased income for Dublin GAA. You know this. Dublin GAA now spend close to 4 million per year on games development. You know this.

It's game, set and match here. You know the impact the money and coaches have had on Dublin GAA. 100 titles post funding. You can't bring yourself to admit it, that's your choice.

Dublin have nowhere near one coach per club, you know this

Half of the coaches are in effect funded by the clubs themselves you know this too

It’s just inconvenient for the narriative you want to spin, like so many other facts. It’s a shame because it actually damages your argument with folks who genuinely want to have the conversation about ensuring counties have the opportunity to develop and who are happy to acknowledge that dublin benefited from support to help reverse years of neglect. Your choice though

tritium wrote: »

Some influence due to disparity sure. But not really measurable when there’s a piece of funding in that dublin allocation that is funded on a provincial basis to everyone else for just one example. It’s basically apples and oranges.

To be clear I’m happy to acknowledge dublin benefitted from funding, as well as a lot of clever people who made the most of it. I just dispute if it’s at the level some posters on here want to paint. I also dispute the idea that other counties couldn’t use many aspects of the dublin approach to help themselves, or indeed that they couldn’t have been doing it over the past decade or so

Dublin receive funding from their provincial council. You know this. The provincial funding for other counties leaves them with between 1 and 6 coaches. You know this. Dublin have far more coaches, nearly one per club, you know this. This was a Dublin only scheme. You know this. It has led to increased income for Dublin GAA. You know this. Dublin GAA now spend close to 4 million per year on games development. You know this.

It's game, set and match here. You know the impact the money and coaches have had on Dublin GAA. 100 titles post funding. You can't bring yourself to admit it, that's your choice.

mitchelsontour wrote: »

Disparity to that level surely must have some influence?
Yes /No

Some influence due to disparity sure. But not really measurable when there’s a piece of funding in that dublin allocation that is funded on a provincial basis to everyone else for just one example. It’s basically apples and oranges.

To be clear I’m happy to acknowledge dublin benefitted from funding, as well as a lot of clever people who made the most of it. I just dispute if it’s at the level some posters on here want to paint. I also dispute the idea that other counties couldn’t use many aspects of the dublin approach to help themselves, or indeed that they couldn’t have been doing it over the past decade or so

ArielAtom wrote: »

This response to you is from someone who posted in the feedback thread about untruths!!! You couldn't make it up. In horse racing terms they would be referred to as a stayer. Interestingly it appears the Rugby forum had to put up with a similar level of whabaoutery in the past.

I hope the irony is not lost on you when looking at the list of untruths from your buddy.

tritium wrote: »

We did this part of the conversation a few pages back, go have a look. Talking about the direct county allocations wrt games development ignores a huge amount of additional funds and how they’re used. It’s basically a tabloid headline and not much else.

Every county including Dublin received funding from their provincial council. Every county received a similar amount in games development funding except Dublin. Every county had under 6 coaches while Dublin had close to one per club. We've been over all this. The figures show that Dublin were overfunded by a long way.

tritium wrote: »

Except your argument is supported by untruths

Almost every club in dublin got a professional coach - DISPROVED - You need to go through the list of clubs again. Nearly all clubs have access to a professional coach, especially in divisions 1-4.

the GAA funded the coaches for dublin entirely -DISPROVED I never claimed that.

Counties only get a piddling GD allowance and nothing else - DISPROVED I never claimed that.

dublin funding was the source of their success as far back as 2003 - DISPROVED The development funding has led to 100 titles across Dublin GAA and it was 2002 when it started, this claim has been proved.

No other county can generate significant commercial revenue - DISPROVED I never claimed that

the GAA was equitable and fair financially prior to this dublin team - DISPROVED Have you provided any proof to the contrary?

We could go on- you’ve basically shot yourself in the foot repeatedly with your hyperbole. You’ve deliberately been selective to try to paint as bleak a picture as you could. Unfortunately others can also access the information and it’s pretty easy to poke huge holes in the claims you’ve made

I've put my replies in bold for you there. It shows how desperate you are when you have to make things up.

Here are the claims I've made:

Dublin have had access to far more professional coaches than everyone else - Proven beyond doubt.

Every other county had access to 6 or less coaches - Proven beyond doubt.

Dublin received millions upon millions more in funding than everyone else - Proven beyond doubt.

Dublin had the coaching plan developed for them - Proven beyond doubt.

Dublin receive far more in sponsorship than anyone else - Proven beyond doubt.

Dublin weren't close to being in desperate need of funding compared with other counties - Proven beyond doubt.

Dublin have had a professional coach for nearly every club - Proven beyond doubt.

Dublin have gained huge success off the millions of euro handed to them - Proven beyond doubt.

The money wasn't just for primary school kids - Proven beyond doubt.

The development money began in 2002 and it still is being paid every year - Proven beyond doubt

Dublin footballers have only played 2 away championship games since 2006 - Proven beyond doubt.

Members of the Dublin county board and employees of Dublin GAA admit to the massive difference the development funding has made - Proven beyond doubt.

Basically, any argument in defence of the funding disparity has been completely obliterated.

tritium wrote: »

We did this part of the conversation a few pages back, go have a look. Talking about the direct county allocations wrt games development ignores a huge amount of additional funds and how they’re used. It’s basically a tabloid headline and not much else.

Disparity to that level surely must have some influence?
Yes /No

Enquiring wrote: »

The Dublin GAA website lists far fewer clubs:

https://www.dublingaa.ie/clubs

Ya I checked that out but there was an info graph

https://twitter.com/GaelicGamesEuro/status/450647697557422082

so went with that just to avoid bias.

tritium wrote: »

Except your argument is supported by untruths

Almost every club in dublin got a professional coach - DISPROVED

the GAA funded the coaches for dublin entirely -DISPROVED

Counties only get a piddling GD allowance and nothing else - DISPROVED

dublin funding was the source of their success as far back as 2003 - DISPROVED

No other county can generate significant commercial revenue - DISPROVED

the GAA was equitable and fair financially prior to this dublin team - DISPROVED

We could go on- you’ve basically shot yourself in the foot repeatedly with your hyperbole. You’ve deliberately been selective to try to paint as bleak a picture as you could. Unfortunately others can also access the information and it’s pretty easy to poke huge holes in the claims you’ve made

This response to you is from someone who posted in the feedback thread about untruths!!! You couldn't make it up. In horse racing terms they would be referred to as a stayer. Interestingly it appears the Rugby forum had to put up with a similar level of whabaoutery in the past.

mitchelsontour wrote: »

Between 2007 and 2018, Dublin received almost €18m in coaching/game development grants directly from Croke Park. Cork are second with €1.4m, with Derry (€1.3m), Meath (€1.1m), Kildare, Laois, Antrim, Wicklow, Wexford and Offaly taking in just over €1m in that time period.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0614/1055359-dublin-funding/

Cannot give a direct answer to your question but the above would probably explain the disparity.

We did this part of the conversation a few pages back, go have a look. Talking about the direct county allocations wrt games development ignores a huge amount of additional funds and how they’re used. It’s basically a tabloid headline and not much else.

tritium wrote: »

Would you like to adjust for the part paid for by the clubs themselves?

Between 2007 and 2018, Dublin received almost €18m in coaching/game development grants directly from Croke Park. Cork are second with €1.4m, with Derry (€1.3m), Meath (€1.1m), Kildare, Laois, Antrim, Wicklow, Wexford and Offaly taking in just over €1m in that time period.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0614/1055359-dublin-funding/

Cannot give a direct answer to your question but the above would probably explain the disparity.

Enquiring wrote: »

My argument is to split Dublin. I've outlined why that has to happen.

Firstly, a detailed plan was drawn up for them by a task force set up by the GAA. Then the finance was given to Dublin to implement the plan that was only available to them. Millions of euro was pumped into Dublin GAA, far above the level of any other county. From this, inevitable improvements in results began across all areas of Dublin GAA. Sponsorship grew from this, from the Vodafone deal to AIG and a multitude of other sponsors. In 2019, Dublin were receiving 2.3 million from sponsorship. Dublin spend 3.8 million on games development in 2019. They spend over 2 million a year on wages and salaries. 1.5 million on team preparations.

So from the initial plan drawn up by the Strategic Review Committee, there was a domino effect and things spiralled out of control. One thing led to another and we've been in a position where one county is operating at a professional level in an amateur sport. That can't be let continue. That's my argument.

Except your argument is supported by untruths

Almost every club in dublin got a professional coach - DISPROVED

the GAA funded the coaches for dublin entirely -DISPROVED

Counties only get a piddling GD allowance and nothing else - DISPROVED

dublin funding was the source of their success as far back as 2003 - DISPROVED

No other county can generate significant commercial revenue - DISPROVED

the GAA was equitable and fair financially prior to this dublin team - DISPROVED

We could go on- you’ve basically shot yourself in the foot repeatedly with your hyperbole. You’ve deliberately been selective to try to paint as bleak a picture as you could. Unfortunately others can also access the information and it’s pretty easy to poke huge holes in the claims you’ve made

Festive Life wrote: »

How many of the coaches in Dublin are paid by the clubs themselves.
Nothing stopping clubs combining together and applying to get these coaches to work with them but then again it isnt needed everywhere.
My own club doesnt have a coach development officer but is lucky enough to have a coach who's job allows him enough time that he can attend/work with the schools in the parish on a very regular basis

Lot more clubs like that nationwide.

Again, this was a Dublin only scheme. There was very much something stopping clubs from outside Dublin gaining access to it. They weren't allowed as it was Dublin only. Taxpayers provided millions upon millions of euros to fund this Dublin only scheme by the way.

ArielAtom wrote: »

Tritium, the figures being bandied about by some posters are in direct opposition to their statements regarding numbers. There is a statement of 54 or 76 GPO's and every club having one. Yet the Dublin club count is 93 or 134 not sure which I believe, I'm no maths guru but 54 or 76 into 93 or 134 does not equate to every club having a professional coach. Some people post untruths and think if they repeat it enough that the majority of their fanbase will buy into it and believe it. Thankfully you are stating facts and not fiction. Fair play to you, you've great patience.

Ah, your buddy is struggling badly so you tried to give him a hand. The statement was they have a professional coach for nearly every club. You can go through the list of clubs on the Dublin GAA website if you want?

It blows another myth wide open. The money has been used for clubs in the top divisions, not for lesser clubs. This is all about elite development, not the fictional tale that it's for primary school kids.

mitchelsontour wrote: »

The approx. coach to club ratio using a combination of Boom__Boom and tritium figures just for comparison.

Dublin - 76 coaches for 134 clubs a ratio of 0.56

The rest of the country 280 coaches for 1992 clubs a ratio of 0.14

Lets just say that is a significant difference.

The Dublin GAA website lists far fewer clubs:

https://www.dublingaa.ie/clubs

Lost Ormond

mitchelsontour wrote: »

The approx. coach to club ratio using a combination of Boom__Boom and tritium figures just for comparison.

Dublin - 76 coaches for 134 clubs a ratio of 0.56

The rest of the country 280 coaches for 1992 clubs a ratio of 0.14

Lets just say that is a significant difference.

How many of the coaches in Dublin are paid by the clubs themselves.
Nothing stopping clubs combining together and applying to get these coaches to work with them but then again it isnt needed everywhere.
My own club doesnt have a coach development officer but is lucky enough to have a coach who's job allows him enough time that he can attend/work with the schools in the parish on a very regular basis

Lot more clubs like that nationwide.

tritium wrote: »

Your argument is that GAA threw money at dublin. The clubs paid half of the cost of those coaches. Is that true for the other coaches in your listing?

My argument is to split Dublin. I've outlined why that has to happen.

Firstly, a detailed plan was drawn up for them by a task force set up by the GAA. Then the finance was given to Dublin to implement the plan that was only available to them. Millions of euro was pumped into Dublin GAA, far above the level of any other county. From this, inevitable improvements in results began across all areas of Dublin GAA. Sponsorship grew from this, from the Vodafone deal to AIG and a multitude of other sponsors. In 2019, Dublin were receiving 2.3 million from sponsorship. Dublin spend 3.8 million on games development in 2019. They spend over 2 million a year on wages and salaries. 1.5 million on team preparations.

So from the initial plan drawn up by the Strategic Review Committee, there was a domino effect and things spiralled out of control. One thing led to another and we've been in a position where one county is operating at a professional level in an amateur sport. That can't be let continue. That's my argument.

mitchelsontour wrote: »

The approx. coach to club ratio using a combination of Boom__Boom and tritium figures just for comparison.

Dublin - 76 coaches for 134 clubs a ratio of 0.56

The rest of the country 280 coaches for 1992 clubs a ratio of 0.14

Lets just say that is a significant difference.

Would you like to adjust for the part paid for by the clubs themselves?

tritium wrote: »

Your argument is that GAA threw money at dublin. The clubs paid half of the cost of those coaches. Is that true for the other coaches in your listing?

Tritium, the figures being bandied about by some posters are in direct opposition to their statements regarding numbers. There is a statement of 54 or 76 GPO's and every club having one. Yet the Dublin club count is 93 or 134 not sure which I believe, I'm no maths guru but 54 or 76 into 93 or 134 does not equate to every club having a professional coach. Some people post untruths and think if they repeat it enough that the majority of their fanbase will buy into it and believe it. Thankfully you are stating facts and not fiction. Fair play to you, you've great patience.