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Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

[Deleted User]

Is there another way of looking at it?
It’s still very, very divided, and actually seems to be getting more polarized over the last five years. It’s economy is woeful, very heavily dependent on the public sector.
Unionists are making plans to celebrate its centenary, but there seems to be very little to be happy with, certainly far less than the Republic or the rest of the UK.
No point in arguing about a border poll on this thread, but is there any possible way of looking at NI as a social, political and economic failure?

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FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Now that we’ve had your little distraction. Back to the question.
That would need to be clear in any poll question (if it is the case that devolution will not be a possibility).
Would you agree?

What would need to be clear?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Northern Ireland as a state/region/country/nation or whatever you are calling it today will cease to exist in a UI downcow. It will be a geographical region/area of Ireland, as it always was and is now.

Francie you are hung up on defining whether ni is a region, country, nation, etc.
It can be all in different contexts as Roi is. Some call Roi the 26 counties, some a region of EU, some say it is a country, some say its a nation and you will see many republicans on here saying it is none of the above.
So let’s park this nonsense about NI can only be referred to by one term.
Personally I prefer OWC most of the time

Lucy8080

According to a retweet on Nicola Sturgeon's twitter account, 20 polls in a row indicate a sustained majority for Scottish independence.

Scotland may end up being the real story for both these islands. Scottish independence would surely be a difficult situation/dilemma for northern Unionists to evaluate.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What would need to be clear?

Bonnies poll question referred to Northern Ireland being part of a United ireland. Whereas you are saying it will cease to exist as an entity. If that’s what you intend then you should have the balls to put it in the question and watch how that impacts a poll

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie you are hung up on defining whether ni is a region, country, nation, etc.
It can be all in different contexts as Roi is. Some call Roi the 26 counties, some a region of EU, some say it is a country, some say its a nation and you will see many republicans on here saying it is none of the above.
So let’s park this nonsense about NI can only be referred to by one term.
Personally I prefer OWC most of the time

I couldn't care less what you call it tbh. You can't seem to make up your mind what it is though.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Bonnies poll question referred to Northern Ireland being part of a United ireland. Whereas you are saying it will cease to exist as an entity. If that’s what you intend then you should have the balls to put it in the question and watch how that impacts a poll

Westminster will be forming your question downcow, not me.

downcow

Lucy8080 wrote: »

According to a retweet on Nicola Sturgeon's twitter account, 20 polls in a row indicate a sustained majority for Scottish independence.

Scotland may end up being the real story for both these islands. Scottish independence would surely be a difficult situation/dilemma for northern Unionists to evaluate.

Why would that change anything.
It would be sad to see Scotland go but UK is made up of 4 countries who want to belong. If any country changes its mind and wants to leave then that should be facilitated. We will still be good neighbours and have a deep relationship and shared history.

The only change I suppose is that the drain on the UK taxpayer would reduce and we’d all be financially a little better of - but I would prefer they stay in our great Union

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Westminster will be forming your question downcow, not me.

Seems Bonnie already knows the basis of the question but good to hear you don’t agree that question is a done deal

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I couldn't care less what you call it tbh. You can't seem to make up your mind what it is though.

So if it’s that simple could you tell me what you made up you mind about re ROI. Is it a region country nation or something else?

Lucy8080

downcow wrote: »

Why would that change anything.

Okay! I admire your optimism. Scotland leaving the Union, maybe as you say, nothing will change. I don't know.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So if it’s that simple could you tell me what you made up you mind about re ROI. Is it a region country nation or something else?

You can also call it anything you want. Who cares what you call it?

Hellokitty1212

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There will still be a region called 'northern Ireland' Donegal Derry Antrim, Down, Tyrone Armagh Monaghan Cavan Louth etc as there always was.

If you’re referring to Ulster should you have not meant Sligo? Louth is part of Leinster.

FrancieBrady

Lucy8080 wrote: »

Okay! I admire your optimism. Scotland leaving the Union, maybe as you say, nothing will change. I don't know.

Quite a possiblity now that a UI and Scottish referendum would be held at the same time. A fundamental question for the future of UK.
IMO the UK has been slowly breaking up since the first Scottish Referendum. Brexit is a symtom of that rather than a cause.

FrancieBrady

Hellokitty1212 wrote: »

If you’re referring to Ulster should you have not meant Sligo? Louth is part of Leinster.

Iwas referring to geograpically 'north' and the counties of northern Ireland.

Hellokitty1212

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Iwas referring to geograpically 'north' and the counties of northern Ireland.

Understood, cheers!

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You can also call it anything you want. Who cares what you call it?

Francie does it again.
Moans on about people calling ni different things eg region, nation etc and suggests we should make our mind up.
When I turn the question back on him and ask him is his wee ROI, a nation, country, a region etc he completely ducks the question.
Come on Francie. What is it in your black and white world???

downcow

Hellokitty1212 wrote: »

If you’re referring to Ulster should you have not meant Sligo? Louth is part of Leinster.

So is Dundalk not in Ulster? My ROI history isn’t good. Does anyone know how /why the four provinces were formed and when they were defined exactly as they are now? Did their borders move around a bit etc?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie does it again.
Moans on about people calling ni different things eg region, nation etc and suggests we should make our mind up.
When I turn the question back on him and ask him is his wee ROI, a nation, country, a region etc he completely ducks the question.
Come on Francie. What is it in your black and white world???

I didn't moan about anything downcow, I just wondered 'what you were calling it today'.

It doesn't bother me what you call it or what you call here.

Hellokitty1212

downcow wrote: »

So is Dundalk not in Ulster? My ROI history isn’t good. Does anyone know how /why the four provinces were formed and when they were defined exactly as they are now? Did their borders move around a bit etc?

Did you somehow mistake me for your teacher?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So is Dundalk not in Ulster? My ROI history isn’t good. Does anyone know how /why the four provinces were formed and when they were defined exactly as they are now? Did their borders move around a bit etc?

Google?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I didn't moan about anything downcow, I just wondered 'what you were calling it today'.

It doesn't bother me what you call it or what you call here.

And I answered you and I am asking you the same question about your wee ROI. Is it a country, region, nation, or other???

downcow

Hellokitty1212 wrote: »

Did you somehow mistake me for your teacher?

Not at all. It was a general question to anyone who did not get out of the wrong side of the bed this morning lol and I see that doesn’t include Francie haha

[Deleted User]

More info on the poll here. A significant sized sample used in NI.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2021/0124/1191682-uk-polls-northern-ireland-scotland-independence/

Couple of things.

The UK is made up of 4 Nations and is one country. The UK being 4 countries is an oxymoron. And before anyone says something about kingdoms, NI and Wales were never kingdoms.

As to the poster surprised that the Irish still wanted to remain part of the UK while it looks like Scots wants to leave. Scotland was never colonised to anywhere near the same extent with plantations. I'm glad he now thinks of them all as Irish though. Not sure all of them would agree with him .

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

And I answered you and I am asking you the same question about your wee ROI. Is it a country, region, nation, or other???

Yes, you are calling it a 'wee country' today, I saw that.

I live here in Ireland, which is a sovereign country that is a part of a partitioned nation.

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

More info on the poll here. A significant sized sample used in NI.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2021/0124/1191682-uk-polls-northern-ireland-scotland-independence/

Couple of things.

The UK is made up of 4 Nations and is one country. The UK being 4 countries is an oxymoron. And before anyone says something about kingdoms, NI and Wales were never kingdoms.

As to the poster surprised that the Irish still wanted to remain part of the UK while it looks like Scots wants to leave. Scotland was never colonised to anywhere near the same extent with plantations. I'm glad he now thinks of them all as Irish though. Not sure all of them would agree with him .

Very interesting that the poll sample is so high in Northern Ireland.

Lucidtalk polled 2,392 people in Northern Ireland aged 16 and over between 15th and 18th January.

Natterjack from Kerry

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes, you are calling it a 'wee country' today, I saw that.

I live here in Ireland, which is a sovereign country that is a part of a partitioned nation.

A partitioned island surely ? The island of Ireland can by no stretch be considered a nation.

Cork Trucker

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

A partitioned island surely ? The island of Ireland can by no stretch be considered a nation.

Partitioned for the last 100 years, but for how much longer.

FrancieBrady

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

A partitioned island surely ? The island of Ireland can by no stretch be considered a nation.

Whatever. Just call it what you want yourself. Downcow will probably agree with you as he did when you called NI a 'region' of the UK the other day.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

So is Dundalk not in Ulster? My ROI history isn’t good. Does anyone know how /why the four provinces were formed and when they were defined exactly as they are now? Did their borders move around a bit etc?

The facetiousness is hanging out of your post, Downcow.

As you're well aware, you're asking about a period of history that predates partition, it is OUR shared history. I very much doubt anyone could live on a small island for their entire life and have such little knowledge about ten miles down the road, unless they were going out of their way to remain ignorant.

Where does your desperate insistence on distancing yourself from anything Irish end? Do you ignore the stories of the Ulster Cycle as being, 'ROI myth and legend'? Are you afraid to share the stories of Fionn mac Cumhaill with your future generations in case they feel a bit too taigy, rooting for Fionn over the Scottish Benandonner?

Its particularly weird given how significant Ulster was throughout our history, particularly in the era you're asking about.

I suspect that perhaps rather than a genuine question, you're trying to make some petty point about the changing provinces to justify the partition of Ireland as if provincial borders changing is some big Gotcha.

Just on the very remote possibility that it was a genuine question asked clumsily, not only have the borders changed, historically there were times with significantly more than 4 provinces. The term in the Irish language is cúige, meaning Fifth, as traditionally there were five, though often there were more.

Also amusing with Francie referring to it as a Northern county, Louth was in fact part of Ulster at one point.

Natterjack from Kerry

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Whatever. Just call it what you want yourself. Downcow will probably agree with you as he did when you called NI a 'region' of the UK the other day.

The UK, is the term I would generally use.