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The eBike thread

unkel

A quick look seems that this doesn't really seem to fit in the cycling forum. So starting a thread here about all things eBike

I'll get the ball rolling. I have zero experience with eBikes. But I was going to build myself a battery anyway, for various reasons (like in bringing with me in my EV as a "petrol can")

I'm going to buy a solderless kit to make the battery (with 18650 cells I have removed from dead / old laptop batteries). This kit cah handle 20A max, and I would like the battery pack to produce 1kW constant. P=V*I so 1000W = 50V * 20A

This dictates that my battery needs to be nominal 48V (was thinking of making a 24V battery pack, but that won't be able to charge my car)

A quick browse on eBay and Amazon shows that you could buy a powerful 1000W bike conversion kit with everything needed except the battery for about GBP120 (a bit more from Amazon but peace of mind)

What to buy though, front wheel or rear wheel kit? Pros and cons? Any other advice?

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SlowBlowin

I've got the widest seat available (the bike not me) - but its a hard tail.

Next bike is going to be a long range cruiser, built for comfort - might even get a parasol !!:D:D

Mousewar

You've all lost me. An electronically illiterate person like me will have to settle for what's in the shops, I think.
I was speaking to a lad in one of them and he ended up recommending me this:
https://www.haibike.com/gb/en/electric-bikes/electric-trekking-bikes/sduro-trekking-40-gb1217?id=45314148
I've classed this as my safe choice. Spec seems good and as I have a 20k each way commute he suggested the fancy tyres and suspension would help out.

My unsafe choice is Kuma. https://www.kumabikes.com/pagem1
I just like the look of this thing, especially because it doesn't look like an ebike. The Haibike is grand looking but sees almost like a mini motorbike or something. It just seems a bit much to me. I talked to the guys in Kuma. The torque of the motor isn't listed on the site but he told me it's 80nm. That seems pretty good from the little I know. Not sure how the other features would match up.

Anyone care to share their thoughts? Thanks in advance and sorry for spamming the thread.

[Deleted User]

unkel wrote: »

You really should get back in the saddle Mad_Lad!

Yeah I should, God knows I need to loose the weight, I haven't been on the bike hardly at all since 2014 and I got the Haibike in 2013 lol.

I'd find it very tough with only 50 Nm of torque too starting back on the bike after so long + I haven't a throttle and the poxy speed limit is just too low, it's a real pain when you're fighting with the motor cutting in and out when you're at the limit, it's so sad considering the e-scooters can do 50 Km/hr and that's perfectly fine but a much safer bike with proper brakes is limited to 25 Km/hr ? madness.

Not having a throttle when you get tired is also not fun, then the bike runs out of power, it's pretty counter intuitive when you think about it. But the nanny EU has to be our guardian to make sure we're all safe and we don't hurt others, awe, so nice. NOT. pure bullsh1t.

+ the rear gear hub broke, the Sram Daul Drive III and I can't get the parts so the gearing is messed up, I need a bit higher gearing so might be only able to replace the crank just to slow down my cadence a bit.

The current Bosch motors are around 75 Nm too which would help but think this is only available on the mountain bikes.

One of the S-Pedelecs would be fun though.

Bosch have now some kind of system that detects tampering of the software and sensors and will go into limp mode and they will charge you a fortune to fix it if you try to modify it, this is really incredibly ridiculous, you buy the bike you should be free to do what you want with it.

The latest generation of Bosch motors solved the drag when the motor is off seemingly, it only took since what, 2012 ? lol.

[Deleted User]

Mousewar wrote: »

You've all lost me. An electronically illiterate person like me will have to settle for what's in the shops, I think.
I was speaking to a lad in one of them and he ended up recommending me this:
https://www.haibike.com/gb/en/electric-bikes/electric-trekking-bikes/sduro-trekking-40-gb1217?id=45314148
I've classed this as my safe choice. Spec seems good and as I have a 20k each way commute he suggested the fancy tyres and suspension would help out.

My unsafe choice is Kuma. https://www.kumabikes.com/pagem1
I just like the look of this thing, especially because it doesn't look like an ebike. The Haibike is grand looking but sees almost like a mini motorbike or something. It just seems a bit much to me. I talked to the guys in Kuma. The torque of the motor isn't listed on the site but he told me it's 80nm. That seems pretty good from the little I know. Not sure how the other features would match up.

Anyone care to share their thoughts? Thanks in advance and sorry for spamming the thread.

You can't go far wrong with either, I'd love to test out that OEM Bafang Mid drive.

Any specs on it ? Torque ?

Why is the Kuma an unsafe choice ?

The Yamaha is well proven.

I wonder would the 8 speed hub have much cogging when peddling without power ?

Mousewar

Deleted User wrote: »

You can't go far wrong with either, I'd love to test out that OEM Bafang Mid drive.

Any specs on it ? Torque ?

Why is the Kuma an unsafe choice ?

The Yamaha is well proven.

I wonder would the 8 speed hub have much cogging when peddling without power ?

The lad I spoke to in Kuma said the Bafang was 80nm torque, which I gather is good. Is Bafang generally a good motor brand?

I think of the Kuma as the unsafe choice because there's little in the way of reviews of it and I *think* the other spec of the Haibike (wheels, suspension) are better. The kuma seems like the prettier but perhaps less practical choice? Not sure though...

[Deleted User]

Mousewar wrote: »

The lad I spoke to in Kuma said the Bafang was 80nm torque, which I gather is good. Is Bafang generally a good motor brand?

I think of the Kuma as the unsafe choice because there's little in the way of reviews of it and I *think* the other spec of the Haibike (wheels, suspension) are better. The kuma seems like the prettier but perhaps less practical choice? Not sure though...

The Haibikes are super quality and extremely well constructed so you can't go wrong.

The Bafang motors are pretty solid, I'm sure reviews of the OWM version of their mid mounted motors can be found with some googling.

80 Nm is decent, that's where you want to be aiming.

The Banfang and Yamaha motors are good but Bosch have the edge when it comes to software and torque sensing making the cycling experience pretty natural.

The latest Bosch motors have around 75 Nm of torque and I've read that they have greatly reduced the drag effect when motor power is off it can be quite noticeable, it's certainly noticeable with my 2013 Bosch but they seem to have recently addressed this so if you're getting a Bosch bike make sure it's the latest model and has the 75 Nm of torque a lot of them only have the more compact 50 Nm version you want to be aiming higher than this if you have any half decent hills, but more torque will mean less fumbling around with gears.

If you can get a test of any of those bikes you're sorted but in reality you'd need to take it to the hills to get a real idea of how it will perform and whether you'll be happy or not but I doubt you will be disappointed with the performance with 80 Nm of torque regardless of what bike you get the difference will be in how the power is applied and how it reacts to your pedal input and this is where the Bosch leads but a good margin.

In my outlaws area in Germany there is a local bike shop and they have loads of electric bikes displayed outside and People can just take them for a spin and come back 30 mins later and they don't bat an eyelid, they don't even go into the shop and ask for a test, here in Ireland they'd all be robbed, that's one of the differences between here and there lol I was flabbergasted when I saw this.

unkel

75-80Nm of torque is still not great though, is it? The Bafang BBS02 mid drive base motor that I have (not the more powerful HD or the even stronger new top of the range model), puts out 120NM as standard, with a standard 48V battery. With a fully charged 52V battery, that would be more like 160Nm

[Deleted User]

unkel wrote: »

75-80Nm of torque is still not great though, is it? The Bafang BBS02 mid drive base motor that I have (not the more powerful HD or the even stronger new top of the range model), puts out 120NM as standard, with a standard 48V battery. With a fully charged 52V battery, that would be more like 160Nm

I was sure you had the BBSHD lol.

Yes it's easier to put out more power when you're not limited by the law

80 Nm is a lot better than 50 Nm, now I know the OEM's like Bosch and Brose go over the 250 Watt limit because no one measures this only acceleration and speed but I don't know how much power they do actually pull or what their limit is so they are naturally going to be restricted.

I got up Mount Leinster with just the 50 Nm from the Bosch and that was really really tough even with the motor and I was a lot fitter then but it meant that I could do it, without the Bosch not a hope, some parts of the Mount Leinster RTE Mast access road are around 24% some so steep you're nearly fall backwards if you pulled the handlebars too much.

The gearing helps a lot too of course, I was in the lowest gear for most of that and it was tough because my cadence was too fast for me, more torque would have allowed me use a higher gear.

80 Nm even better and it should be able to drag most people up pretty much any road you'd have here without much issue, sure more power is great but it also consumes more battery.

The Brose motors are one of the best in the world if not the best, they're around 90 Nm.

The greatest issue for me is drag when the power is off and the Bafangs are known for drag as well as the older Bosch and others, I think the Brose are one of the best for drag too.

I'd still like to try out that Bafang OEM motor.

SlowBlowin

unkel wrote: »

LOL

I guess these days even the most conservative, reactionary people are slowly starting to realise that electric bikes and cars are the way forward

No - all change, latest post urging her reconsider, stick with a pedal bike, its healthier.

Thargor

Wow Andy Kirby and his mate really crapping on that Specialised in the video, that would be 10k minimum over here...

unkel

Once you have used a pretty powerful eBike, then going back to a road legal 250W max bike like the specialized is pretty pathetic. And I have no idea why that bike should cost €10k, that's just ridiculous profiteering although I'm sure they have used some expensive light weight materials.

My first eBike was my old almost worthless mountain bike that I converted myself for a grand total of €190 or so, including the battery. It's at the start of this thread somewhere. It was a very cheap kit, but still way more powerful than that €10k specialized eBike.

The specialized is like buying a Ferrari with 30BHP that's limited to 50km/h. Looks great, but that's about it

Mousewar

I'm going to try the Kuma tomorrow.
I've actually never ridden an ebike before. Any advice on what I should look out for?

loughside

Mousewar wrote: »

I'm going to try the Kuma tomorrow.
I've actually never ridden an ebike before. Any advice on what I should look out for?

just look out for other cyclists who will be totally fecked off with you passing them on the hills, followed by the now standard `yer cheating` greeting!

Just point and reply with `ancient technology`......... goes down a treat!

unkel

Works with cars too

Many a BMW 520d / Audi 2.0TDI was schmoked by my humble 118BHP Hyundai Ioniq electric. Electric vehicles FTW!

[Deleted User]

Mousewar wrote: »

I'm going to try the Kuma tomorrow.
I've actually never ridden an ebike before. Any advice on what I should look out for?

Na not a lot, just make sure the power delivery is smooth and not jerky.

It won't be until you climb decent hills will you know what it's really like.

Mousewar

Deleted User wrote: »

Na not a lot, just make sure the power delivery is smooth and not jerky.

It won't be until you climb decent hills will you know what it's really like.

Thanks. Although I'm not sure there'll be any hills in the industrial park l'll be testing it in.

Mousewar

Tried the Kuma M1 there.
Certainly liked it. Gorgeous bike, very comfortable.
Again, I've never ridden an ebike so I've nothing to compare it with.
To be honest I barely noticed anything different when I was cycling, it just seemed like cycling and getting up to speed was incredibly easy. Once over 25k there was zero noticeable difference. Bike carried on smoothly. Starting off at level 5 power was very quick and up to speed in seconds. No hills unfortunately except a long slight incline which was a breeze.
Certainly nothing today that would put me off it.

unkel

Mousewar wrote: »

Once over 25k there was zero noticeable difference

That's because all road legal bikes are programmed that the motor must stop working over 25km/h, so it is just you doing the pedaling

Most home build eBikes have a throttle so you don't have to pedal at all and even if the system has a speed limit, you can override it and it will go as fast as the max amperage of the controller allows. My own old bike with the entry level Bafang motor does 63km/h with the wheel in the air (and about 45km/h with my 100kg on it)

[Deleted User]

Mousewar wrote: »

To be honest I barely noticed anything different when I was cycling, it just seemed like cycling and getting up to speed was incredibly easy. Once over 25k there was zero noticeable difference. Bike carried on smoothly. Starting off at level 5 power was very quick and up to speed in seconds. No hills unfortunately except a long slight incline which was a breeze.
Certainly nothing today that would put me off it.

Lol as unkel said, it cuts off after 25 Km/hr but if it felt like a normal bike beyond that than that's a positive because some bikes have a lot more drag than others when the power is off.

You're not going to notice a lot until you take it to the hills and once you do it certainly won't feel like a normal bike.

80 Nm of torque will seem like a huge amount of power when you just got your legs on a hill, turn off the power then turn it back on again when climbing a big hill then you'll be might glad of it, remember more Torque means more power and that means shorter battery time.

My Bosch is only 50 Nm, but I've climbed some decent hills including conquering Mount Leinster all the way from the Nine Stones to the RTE Mast, with just 50 Nm so you'll be happy with 80 Nm.

By the way if you get the chance head up to Mount Leinster with it, on a clear day the view is fabulous and if you know what to look for on a clear day you can see the wind turbines in off Brittas Bay!

Mousewar

Oh yeah I know, I just meant there was no jerking or sudden drag once I went past 25k which I understand could be a factor.
For those us reduced to obeying the law, it's a plus anyway.
*responding to unkel

John Hutton

Lads, I keep my bike in the garage. Just a thought with recent frosty weather, could cold kill my battery? (Would rather not keep it in the house due to danger of batteries)

unkel

No problem as long as you don't charge it when it's below zero

John Hutton

unkel wrote: »

No problem as long as you don't charge it when it's below zero

That's a relief, I've already rescued the bottles of beer from the garage ahead of the freezing temps forecast, glad to know my bike will be ok to stay there!

I'll take it in to charge if I need to when its sub zero.

[Deleted User]

John Hutton wrote: »

Lads, I keep my bike in the garage. Just a thought with recent frosty weather, could cold kill my battery? (Would rather not keep it in the house due to danger of batteries)

You can charge the battery in the house just make sure you charge in a fireproof location with a smoke alarm.

Performance while riding might be another issue depending on the internal resistance to begin with it might feel rather sluggish while trying to pull max power if it's sitting outside all day for instance.

When you're finished with it charge to 50% if you don't intend riding it for a couple of days, charging to 100% and storing it is not good or leaving it below say, 10%. Charge it up then before you need it the night before.

My Bosch battery has been sitting at 50% for the last 4 years ffs, it's a waste really but I hope to get on it soon again when the weather gets better, will be interesting to see how it's survived.

BarryM

I saw a piece by Minister Ryan about the introduction of e-scooters. He says that there is a raft of legislation and regulation to be examined and modified as necessary before they can even introduce the law to allow them. I just wonder how they will deal with where on the existing infrastructure they will decide they can be used?

How do people here think the decisions will affect bikes? They get by on the basis of you have to pedal.....;), will they modify the speed limit?

[Deleted User]

BarryM wrote: »

I saw a piece by Minister Ryan about the introduction of e-scooters. He says that there is a raft of legislation and regulation to be examined and modified as necessary before they can even introduce the law to allow them. I just wonder how they will deal with where on the existing infrastructure they will decide they can be used?

How do people here think the decisions will affect bikes? They get by on the basis of you have to pedal.....;), will they modify the speed limit?

Ebikes will stay highly restricted as they are governed by E.U legislation which probably doesn't yet exist to cover e-scooters and nobody will want to go through all the hassle involved in changing this restrictive legislation for e-bikes.

I would imagine the e-scooters to be limited to the same 25 Km/hr if not it would be absolutely ridiculous to imagine these e-scooters being able to continue at 50 Km/Hr and beyond where as bikes have proper brakes and they are safer at speed than those small e-scooters.

Also if E-scooters can have a throttle without being classed as a motor vehicle it would seem ridiculous that ebikes would still be restricted to pedelec.

So the only way I can see this working is for e-scooters to be classed as motor vehicles which would require tax and insurance the same as S-pedelecs.

Mousewar

Kuma just took 600 quid off the bike so I'm agonna go for it.

[Deleted User]

Mousewar wrote: »

Kuma just took 600 quid off the bike so I'm agonna go for it.

Good for you, best of luck! Can't wait for your thread

Skill Magill

Was toying with the idea of an electric Brompton, it comes in at about 3 and half grand, is that mad money or would I be buying quality that would last 20 years?
It ticks the boxes for me, foldable and light enough to cycle without battery, also like the idea of not really needing to lock it as it would be on me at all times.
I know you can get 1500 tax free on the bike to work shceme, your employer just has to buy it for you. Is it as simple as that? How much would 3,500 translate with the tax break?

I was looking at rad bikes too, but they seem heavy to transport(although they have more powerful motors which might be a buzz)

So mad or not on the Brompton?

SCOL

Skill Magill wrote: »

Was toying with the idea of an electric Brompton, it comes in at about 3 and half grand, is that mad money or would I be buying quality that would last 20 years?
It ticks the boxes for me, foldable and light enough to cycle without battery, also like the idea of not really needing to lock it as it would be on me at all times.
I know you can get 1500 tax free on the bike to work shceme, your employer just has to buy it for you. Is it as simple as that? How much would 3,500 translate with the tax break?

I was looking at rad bikes too, but they seem heavy to transport(although they have more powerful motors which might be a buzz)

So mad or not on the Brompton?

Personally I couldn't justify paying that I bought a 750w bafang middrive kit €1,000 including battery. I bought a battery as I was using it to go to work. I have also made a battery for €50 and it works great.
I use mine for commuting 45Km per day it has a few thousand KM on the clock at this stage. If it was a commuter bike paying for a bus/car, insurance tax etc that's how I justified mine I reckoned 6 month payback for me after that I'm saving.
I assume you one would also be limited to 25Km, bus fare maybe €20 per week if yours based in Dublin that about 75weeks payback