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The eBike thread

unkel

A quick look seems that this doesn't really seem to fit in the cycling forum. So starting a thread here about all things eBike

I'll get the ball rolling. I have zero experience with eBikes. But I was going to build myself a battery anyway, for various reasons (like in bringing with me in my EV as a "petrol can")

I'm going to buy a solderless kit to make the battery (with 18650 cells I have removed from dead / old laptop batteries). This kit cah handle 20A max, and I would like the battery pack to produce 1kW constant. P=V*I so 1000W = 50V * 20A

This dictates that my battery needs to be nominal 48V (was thinking of making a 24V battery pack, but that won't be able to charge my car)

A quick browse on eBay and Amazon shows that you could buy a powerful 1000W bike conversion kit with everything needed except the battery for about GBP120 (a bit more from Amazon but peace of mind)

What to buy though, front wheel or rear wheel kit? Pros and cons? Any other advice?

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yosser hughes

Mousewar wrote: »

Another Irish company. Some 23 year old whippersnapper from Cabinteely is the CEO. Seems in the style of a VanMoof but battery is removable. Too new for there to be much in the way of reviews.
https://modmo.io/products/saigon

That's impressive! Nice looking bikes too.

When I was 23 I didn't know my arse from my elbow!

Mousewar

yosser hughes wrote: »

That's impressive! Nice looking bikes too.

When I was 23 I didn't know my arse from my elbow!

Yeah same. Very impressive.

I'm actually tempted. It has a front motor though. Not sure what that would be like.

unkel

Front motor is fine. Will give you all wheel drive (AWD)

But seriously, it makes quite a bit of sense to have the motor in the front of a low power electric bike. The motor assists. Go high power (thus not road legal anway) and it becomes a lot trickier. That's why you don't have any petrol motorbikes with FWD

mailforkev

Fair play to the Modmo lad, I too was once a 23 year old from Cabinteely, hope he does well.

Got this yesterday, have yet to give it a decent spin. Thought I'd be back in the office this year at some point so planning to get a bit more exercise.

yosser hughes

mailforkev wrote: »

Fair play to the Modmo lad, I too was once a 23 year old from Cabinteely, hope he does well.

Got this yesterday, have yet to give it a decent spin. Thought I'd be back in the office this year at some point so planning to get a bit more exercise.

Is that the Van Moof? Looks lovely

unkel

Looks class Kev, well wear!

SlowBlowin

mailforkev wrote: »

Fair play to the Modmo lad, I too was once a 23 year old from Cabinteely, hope he does well.

Got this yesterday, have yet to give it a decent spin. Thought I'd be back in the office this year at some point so planning to get a bit more exercise.

That is a stunning looking bike, I think its beautiful.

If you painted it black and put on a basket it would be the big old heavy bike at the newsagents we used to do our paper round on, same bars and frame !!.

loughside

Mousewar wrote: »

Another Irish company. Some 23 year old whippersnapper from Cabinteely is the CEO. Seems in the style of a VanMoof but battery is removable. Too new for there to be much in the way of reviews.
https://modmo.io/products/saigon

You mean a `drop-shipper` for some Chinese bike factory!!

Quote from site..
"Saigon’s 200km range battery is discreetly housed inside the frame,"

200km :rolleyes::rolleyes:

come on..!!

loughside

unkel wrote: »

Front motor is fine. Will give you all wheel drive (AWD)
But seriously, it makes quite a bit of sense to have the motor in the front of a low power electric bike. The motor assists. Go high power (thus not road legal anway) and it becomes a lot trickier. That's why you don't have any petrol motorbikes with FWD

Ohh, ok...... thought the chain was the issue there

Mousewar

loughside wrote: »

You mean a `drop-shipper` for some Chinese bike factory!!

Quote from site..
"Saigon’s 200km range battery is discreetly housed inside the frame,"

200km :rolleyes::rolleyes:

come on..!!

You doubt them?
I'm quite tempted. I mainly need a commuter bike but so many of them are quite boring looking. If I'm gonna spend 2-3k, I'd like something a bit fun as well. Modmo looks like fun.
I was back and forth with them on email. They're nice folk anyway. Fully refundable deposit up to shipping (April btw) and 15 days to return for any reason for a full refund.

unkel

It will do 200km no bother. As long as you provide 80-85% of the power and let the motor help you a tiny bit

nokiatom

Mousewar wrote: »

Another Irish company. Some 23 year old whippersnapper from Cabinteely is the CEO. Seems in the style of a VanMoof but battery is removable. Too new for there to be much in the way of reviews.
https://modmo.io/products/saigon

The bikes are made in Vietnam.
the 200km range was based on:

250W motor, power level 2, 60kg (9.5 stone) rider, 30C temperature and a battery with approximately 20 charge cycles.
Thats with pedal assist and at level 2 you wont be going very fast. Obviously it was a Vietnamese who tested the bike as they are small people!!

Kramer

unkel wrote: »

It will do 200km no bother. As long as you provide 80-85% of the power and let the motor help you a tiny bit

The new WLTP for ebikes - make up any range figure you like.
I'd bet Bradley Wiggins or Chris Froome could go 500kms on an ebike with a 200Wh battery

.

It's clear in their FAQ page regarding the range............

How far can SAIGON take me without charging?

Is the battery range really 200km?
Our '200km range battery' claim is based on real-life testing... and yes, it really is up to 200km.

Up to!!!

It's ridiculous marketing BS.

SlowBlowin

MY GOD !

Someones getting actual advice on ebikes in the cycling forum !

unkel

LOL

I guess these days even the most conservative, reactionary people are slowly starting to realise that electric bikes and cars are the way forward

SlowBlowin

The advice given so far is go to cycle shop (no less), and hire one. Seems OK, but I would not recommend buying one from a cycle shop, from what I have seen they have limited/restricted ranges and overpriced ?

Hopefully the question gets asked on this thread, I have posted the link.

Thargor

Well the speed will be restricted under EU law, the range will be whatever battery/motor combination you get and level of assist you use when pedalling, nobody would restrict that.

SlowBlowin

Thargor wrote: »

Well the speed will be restricted under EU law, the range will be whatever battery/motor combination you get and level of assist you use when pedalling, nobody would restrict that.

The range of choice would be restricted !

They carry a limited range of bikes, sorry in hindsight range was a bad word to use !

unkel

Here is an interesting comparison. A Specialized shop bought bike costing the guts of €10k :eek: vs a home made bike from Andy Kirby, I doubt he spent more than €2k on it. The Specialized has to comply of course with EU rules about road legal bikes: 250W maximum, max 25km/h and only work while the rider is pedaling

It is so slow it is pretty much useless

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_qfhlVUbWw

Thargor

SlowBlowin wrote: »

The range of choice would be restricted !

They carry a limited range of bikes, sorry in hindsight range was a bad word to use !

Aha yeah sorry I should have thought of that

[Deleted User]

Once you hit around 5.5 Kw with a Direct drive hub you're into serious fun, but you'll really need LiPo at that stage and probably well before 5.5 Kw too.

I think on my power meter, the cycle analyst I say peaks of nearly 10 Kw, the acceleration was unreal and it's the peaks you really must consider when building a batter or buying one.

It was a small direct drive motor and the only conclusion I can come to as to why I didn't cook it is because it climbed decent hills so fast it wasn't pulling max power for long and I was running higher voltage. But I wouldn't have been climbing mount Leinster with it.

I had some serious torque arms too.

Hubs are real fun, no loss of power or changing gears, it's really a pleasure, God I really miss my MAC motor, that was great for the size of it and I could pedal it without that big drag of a direct drive motor.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

Once you hit around 5.5 Kw with a Direct drive hub you're into serious fun

:eek:

I think it is fair to say once you hit 1kW you are into serious fun. That's 4 times as much as that €10k Specialized bike has!!!

[Deleted User]

unkel wrote: »

:eek:

I think it is fair to say once you hit 1kW you are into serious fun. That's 4 times as much as that €10k Specialized bike has!!!

Ah yes but remember the peak power of nearly 10 Kw

people forget the peaks and kill batteries fast when they're building ebikes and trip the BMS if they buy a battery and forget about the peaks, this is not good when crossing a busy junction! :eek:

But where's the fun in buying batteries ?

Indeed and doing it yourself is amazing fun once you know how to handle LiPo without a BMS you're grand and the ultra mega importance of Torque arms.

Custom built ebike frames are great but not for me who really likes to pedal, need to keep the weight down.

1 Kw into a direct drive hub is not that entertaining, 2 Kw into a geared Hub is to those not used to a bit of power, it's pretty decent I have to say, I was able to do 50 Km/hr on full throttle with 50v and the MAC 8T motor, 40 amp controller, was a great hill climber too.

I had to rewire my hubs too, best wire ever was the Alpha eco wire or something like that, it was really thin stuff but could handle mad current, opening the motors and rewiring was a pain. but well worth it.

Those were the days.

unkel

Dunno about killing batteries. The mid drive Bafang in my bike is officially 750W but with a fully charged 52V nominal battery (at close to 59V), I get nearly 2kW. Even when using just 2 scooter battery packs (€25 each), this is fine, the batteries are still grand and if I have to replace them every few years that's just €50 and a charger is only a tenner. I bet you paid more for your charger than I paid for my batteries

These batteries are 7S3P each and I have them in series. I guess the capacity of a cell is about 2.2Ah, so at full wattage I put 30A into the pack which is (30A / 2.2Ah) / 3 parallel = C rating of nearly 5

not bad for a dirt cheap battery made of ubiquitous lithium ion 18650 cells...

John Hutton

unkel wrote: »

Dunno about killing batteries. The mid drive Bafang in my bike is officially 750W but with a fully charged 52V nominal battery (at close to 59V), I get nearly 2kW. Even when using just 2 scooter battery packs (€25 each), this is fine, the batteries are still grand and if I have to replace them every few years that's just €50 and a charger is only a tenner. I bet you paid more for your charger than I paid for my batteries

These batteries are 7S3P each and I have them in series. I guess the capacity of a cell is about 2.2Ah, so at full wattage I put 30A into the pack which is (30A / 2.2Ah) / 3 parallel = C rating of nearly 5 not bad for a dirt cheap battery made of ubiquitous lithium ion 18650 cells...

I get nervous when my bafang (same as yours) pulls 1000w in case it damages the motor. lol if you havnt damaged it at 2k it would seem I have no need to worry!

I have been toying with the idea of making a small light battery to throw into my pannier as an "emergency reserve" of sorts, but considering I get 100km plus range it would want to be some emergency

unkel

Motor is indesctructible. Pretty much all electric motors are, direct drive hub, geared hub, mid drive. On a geared hub or a Bafang mid drive, at some point you will wear the nylon gears out, but they are cheap to replace. Did it myself in my fat bike with a front geared hub motor that was rated for 250W. I put a tiny bit more through it

That yoke was fun. Maybe I should sell my current eBike and buy a full sus fat bike and put the most powerful rear geared hub motor in it that I can find.

[Deleted User]

unkel wrote: »

Dunno about killing batteries. The mid drive Bafang in my bike is officially 750W but with a fully charged 52V nominal battery (at close to 59V), I get nearly 2kW. Even when using just 2 scooter battery packs (€25 each), this is fine, the batteries are still grand and if I have to replace them every few years that's just €50 and a charger is only a tenner. I bet you paid more for your charger than I paid for my batteries

These batteries are 7S3P each and I have them in series. I guess the capacity of a cell is about 2.2Ah, so at full wattage I put 30A into the pack which is (30A / 2.2Ah) / 3 parallel = C rating of nearly 5 not bad for a dirt cheap battery made of ubiquitous lithium ion 18650 cells...

I was running 20 C Lipo at the time which was a decent price and a 10 Ah pack so had around 200 amps at my disposal.

Of course they had a lot better than 20C then and today but I didn't need it. But that could have giving me 12 Kw of power haha imagine, that's continuous power too.

Still, when I think that the little motor rated at 1 Kw could take 5.5 Kw and almost 10 peak, it's amazing the amount of power you can dump into a motor even if it's just for short bursts.

unkel

You really should get back in the saddle Mad_Lad!

SlowBlowin

Economy is the new speed, I don't bounce well enough these days !

unkel

Full suspension, a sprung saddle bar and fat tyres at low pressure all help there, SlowBlowin