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Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

[Deleted User]

Is there another way of looking at it?
It’s still very, very divided, and actually seems to be getting more polarized over the last five years. It’s economy is woeful, very heavily dependent on the public sector.
Unionists are making plans to celebrate its centenary, but there seems to be very little to be happy with, certainly far less than the Republic or the rest of the UK.
No point in arguing about a border poll on this thread, but is there any possible way of looking at NI as a social, political and economic failure?

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Natterjack from Kerry

jm08 wrote: »

How do you mean ''let it go''? Let what go? What difference will it make?

That republicans North and South should accept the state position on the island of Ireland as concluded. The North will remain part of the United Kingdom. The Republic will remain a 26 county one.
Follow up putting down arms with a putting down of the talk and arguments, and not antagonising the other half of your society with the topic. Accept your life as being citizens of the UK, and being able to add citizenship of Ireland additionally should you chose it. Close the topic.

BonnieSituation

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

That republicans North and South should accept the state position on the island of Ireland as concluded. The North will remain part of the United Kingdom. The Republic will remain a 26 county one.

Why?

Follow up putting down arms with a putting down of the talk and arguments, and not antagonising the other half of your society with the topic. Accept your life as being citizens of the UK, and being able to add citizenship of Ireland additionally should you chose it. Close the topic.

I bet you're the sort that gets a nosebleed if you go past Rathmore.

jm08

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

That republicans North and South should accept the state position on the island of Ireland as concluded. The North will remain part of the United Kingdom. The Republic will remain a 26 county one.
Follow up putting down arms with a putting down of the talk and arguments, and not antagonising the other half of your society with the topic. Accept your life as being citizens of the UK, and being able to add citizenship of Ireland additionally should you chose it. Close the topic.

You don't like the idea of a UI, you don't like unions, and you think teachers should just shut up and put up!

Do you work for FG HQ or are you one of Leo's 'special' advisors?

FrancieBrady

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

That republicans North and South should accept the state position on the island of Ireland as concluded. The North will remain part of the United Kingdom. The Republic will remain a 26 county one.
Follow up putting down arms with a putting down of the talk and arguments, and not antagonising the other half of your society with the topic. Accept your life as being citizens of the UK, and being able to add citizenship of Ireland additionally should you chose it. Close the topic.

Your right to do that has been won for you in the GFA. An agreement that has other rights implicit in it, namely, the right to aspire to Irish unity.

Are you another, like the DUP and other belligerent Unionists that wants to now revoke the GFA? Knock yourself out on being silent, it's your right.

Junkyard Tom

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

That republicans North and South should accept the state position on the island of Ireland as concluded.

On the contrary, Unionists need to accept that they live in Ireland amongst the Irish people and they should work towards taking their place in a United Ireland.

The border is a strategic headache for the Irish people which the British, and their useful idiots in the north, will always use against us until it is permanently removed via the ending of British jurisdiction.

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

On the contrary, Unionists need to accept that they live in Ireland amongst the Irish people and they should work towards taking their place in a United Ireland.

The border is a strategic headache for the Irish people which the British, and their useful idiots in the north, will always use against us until it is permanently removed via the ending of British jurisdiction.

In what way is the border a strategic headache for the Irish people?

We are among the top ten countries in the world to live in, how has the border held us back?

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

On the contrary, Unionists need to accept that they live in Ireland amongst the Irish people and they should work towards taking their place in a United Ireland.

The border is a strategic headache for the Irish people which the British, and their useful idiots in the north, will always use against us until it is permanently removed via the ending of British jurisdiction.

Unionists politicians have made a complete hames of it since the AIA. So much so that they have demonstrated to the British people their intransigence and how negative partition is for Britain and where it wants to go. It's a millstone around their necks.
Great work.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

In what way is the border a strategic headache for the Irish people?

*sigh*

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

In what way is the border a strategic headache for the Irish people?

We are among the top ten countries in the world to live in, how has the border held us back?

We'd probably be in Schengen except for the Border. Fishing is a problem. Smuggling and border crime is a problem, the fact that people in NI are not in the top 10 of best countries to live in is a problem. Thats just for starters. I won't go into the hassles of the problems with covid and not being able to do a NZ on it.

maccored

holy christ - thats a whole new level for blanch152 - top ten countries my arse as well. hitting 40% tax at 35 grand earned? 13th most expensive place to live? cop on.

FrancieBrady

jm08 wrote: »

We'd probably be in Schengen except for the Border. Fishing is a problem. Smuggling and border crime is a problem, the fact that people in NI are not in the top 10 of best countries to live in is a problem. Thats just for starters. I won't go into the hassles of the problems with covid and not being able to do a NZ on it.

It is incredible and a sign of a woeful (more likely wilful) ignorance that somebody would have to ask for it to be enumerated or listed.

maccored

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

A debate such as the above unfortunately continues NI as a failed entity. The difference now though is that it is 100% the fault of republicans, still obsessed with a united Ireland when it is in the interest of all that they should work on building what they have, which is now very good, rather than chasing a ghost of the past. Let it go lads, let it go.

it wouldnt surprise me if you are from kerry - as far away from the north as possible and with as much insight - "100% the fault of republicans" .... what tosh

maccored

downcow wrote: »

A complete spin again. Of course their talks led to the 'peace process', but the IRAs motive was to create a fig leaf for themselves - they have proved many times since that they are not peacemakers

spin? you cant spin history. there was no sign of unionism when the peace talks started - and the DUP did their level best to make sure the talks were ridiculed as much as possible. Funny though when it came to getting a bit of power they didnt think twice about joining in

I know you unionists are traditionalists - but you dont have to keep with the same carryon

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Peter Robinson and now Gavin Robinson (are they related btw?) both now admitting to the inevitable. I think it is only a matter of time now until the SoS acts.

Could be part of a huge question for the UK in general...Scots and NI referendums on the same day anyone?

I am not an admirer of the honey monster Gavin Robinson, but you are clutching at straws again. Robinson has been clear that he never once mentioned a border pole in the Irish news interview. He said he had a wry smile when he saw the way they had spun it.
He was talking about unionists being better at talking up the union.

I don’t think a sitting unionist politician has ever or will ever say that we need to discuss a border poll or a United ireland

So sorry to disappoint you. I am sure you were excited when you read the paper.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I am not an admirer of the honey monster Gavin Robinson, but you are clutching at straws again. Robinson has been clear that he never once mentioned a border pole in the Irish news interview. He said he had a wry smile when he saw the way they had spun it.
He was talking about unionists being better at talking up the union.

I don’t think a sitting unionist politician has ever or will ever say that we need to discuss a border poll or a United ireland

So sorry to disappoint you. I am sure you were excited when you read the paper.

Robinson is jockeying for the leadership with Potts...wouldn't believe his oath to be honest.

Have you alink to where he said it?

FrancieBrady

Funny that. Here's two 'sitting' Unionist politicians agreeing that it is time to get ready.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/gavin-robinson-right-to-warn-of-border-poll-dup-mps-39983640.html

in the Belfast Telegraph no less.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Robinson is jockeying for the leadership with Potts...wouldn't believe his oath to be honest.

Have you alink to where he said it?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000rbbp
It was also an old interview from last year. Not how it was pitched.
I saw it on front of Irish news and I thought he had lost his marbles, but the reality was very different

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000rbbp
It was also an old interview from last year. Not how it was pitched.
I saw it on front of Irish news and I thought he had lost his marbles, but the reality was very different

Give us a shout when the two sitting Unionist politicians come out and say the Telegraph was misquoting them, will you?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Give us a shout when the two sitting Unionist politicians come out and say the Telegraph was misquoting them, will you?

I find it amazing how republicans have so little hope of a UI that they grasp at every little straw.
It should be the raisin detre for unionist politicians to point out the positives of the union.
I have pointed out what Gavin Robinson said about his interview and then given you the link you asked for when you didn’t believe it.
It says it all when the Irish news pulled out an interview from last year in which GR never mentioned a border poll and placed it as the front page news with border poll in title. Clearly they can find nothing else to embolden their readers. Lol.

As for the other two. I have no idea what they said, if anything, in addition to supporting GR.

I can only read the beginning of bel Tel articles and her is what she said which I can’t see much wrong with.

“ Upper Bann MP Ms Lockhart, said: "Gavin is taking a very sensible, pragmatic approach. It's vital that we prepare ourselves for the future and any scenario including a border poll.”

Are you aware NASA are preparing should a massive life-ending meteorite hurtle towards the earth. Hasn’t happened in millions of years, but pragmatic to keep an eye on. I wouldn’t say NASA think the writing is on the wall and it’s imminent lol

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I find it amazing how republicans have so little hope of a UI that they grasp at every little straw.
I should be the raisin detre for unionist politicians to point out the positives of the union.
I have pointed out what Gavin Robinson said about his interview and then given you the link you asked for when you didn’t believe it.
It says it all when the Irish news pulled out an inter it from last year in which GR never mentioned a border poll and placed it as the front page news with border poll in title. Clearly they can find nothing else to embolden their readers. Lol.

As for the other two. I have no idea what they said, if anything, in addition to supporting GR.

You find it amazing that a politician (a DUP one at that) recoils from something he said?
Sorry, I'd be a little more cynical about that.

As to what the other two 'sitting Unionist politicians' said, it is THERE in the article in quotes:

Carla Lockhart wrote:

"Gavin is taking a very sensible, pragmatic approach. It's vital that we prepare ourselves for the future and any scenario including a border poll.

Natterjack from Kerry

A lot of nonsense being quoted here. Of course unionists must consider the possibility of a border poll when republicans keep raising the issue. It doesn't mean they are I favour of it. The topic is being driven by republicans only.
Citing unionists referring to the possibility as evidence of it being likely, has no more sense than drawing a conclusion that someone leaving the house in the morning with an umbrella must be in favour of it raining.

FrancieBrady

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

A lot of nonsense being quoted here. Of course unionists must consider the possibility of a border poll when republicans keep raising the issue. It doesn't mean they are I favour of it. The topic is being driven by republicans only.
Citing unionists referring to the possibility as evidence of it being likely, has no more sense than drawing a conclusion that someone leaving the house in the morning with an umbrella must be in favour of it raining.

Who said they 'were in favour of it'?

Tilting at windmills, springs to mind here NJ

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Funny that. Here's two 'sitting' Unionist politicians agreeing that it is time to get ready.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/gavin-robinson-right-to-warn-of-border-poll-dup-mps-39983640.html

in the Belfast Telegraph no less.

If I was a unionist politician, I would consider the possibility that a future Labour SoS might decide to hold a border poll, despite there being little evidence that it would pass, and that any court challenge would be counter-productive, thereby leaving them in a position that they would have to contest a referendum vote that could only be lost due to a failure of unionist votes to come out, and that some preparation for that possible eventuality might be worthwhile.

After all, we have seen what happens with silly referenda in the UK (Brexit).

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

If I was a unionist politician, I would consider the possibility that a future Labour SoS might decide to hold a border poll, despite there being little evidence that it would pass, and that any court challenge would be counter-productive, thereby leaving them in a position that they would have to contest a referendum vote that could only be lost due to a failure of unionist votes to come out, and that some preparation for that possible eventuality might be worthwhile.

After all, we have seen what happens with silly referenda in the UK (Brexit).

Now you are getting it. I think the same. Unionists are seeing that a border poll is more possible. Exactly what I said when I posted the article. downcow respoded to that saying

downcow wrote:

I don’t think a sitting unionist politician has ever or will ever say that we need to discuss a border poll or a United ireland

Good to see you agree that is rubbish. Of course Unionists are discussing a border poll because they have to, they would be fools not to, as you say.

blanch152 wrote:

After all, we have seen what happens with silly referenda in the UK (Brexit).

Completely agree again that Brexit was a disastrously run referendum, but one badly run referendum should not revoke the concept of democracy. That wuld be dictatorial and dangerously fascist.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Now you are getting it. I think the same. Unionists are seeing that a border poll is more possible. Exactly what I said when I posted the article. downcow respoded to that saying

Good to see you agree that is rubbish. Of course Unionists are discussing a border poll because they have to, they would be fools not to, as you say.

Completely agree again that Brexit was a disastrously run referendum, but one badly run referendum should not revoke the concept of democracy. That wuld be dictatorial and dangerously fascist.

Let us be clear, what I am suggesting is that it is possible that a future Labour government might ignore the GFA and have a border poll anyway.

I don't think that is a good thing, I don't think it would help peace and stability on this island, but it is possible that such could happen.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Let us be clear, what I am suggesting is that it is possible that a future Labour government might ignore the GFA and have a border poll anyway.

I don't think that is a good thing, I don't think it would help peace and stability on this island, but it is possible that such could happen.

Anything could happen and frequently does.

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

Let us be clear, what I am suggesting is that it is possible that a future Labour government might ignore the GFA and have a border poll anyway.

I don't think that is a good thing, I don't think it would help peace and stability on this island, but it is possible that such could happen.

The GFA says its up to the SoS to decide when to call a border poll. How would the SoS be ignoring the GFA if they did that?

How is the island of Ireland stable when there will be a Stormont vote in 4 years whether to maintain the current EU / UK agreement with regard to NI?

How do you think that is going to work out?

blanch152

jm08 wrote: »

The GFA says its up to the SoS to decide when to call a border poll. How would the SoS be ignoring the GFA if they did that?

How is the island of Ireland stable when there will be a Stormont vote in 4 years whether to maintain the current EU / UK agreement with regard to NI?

How do you think that is going to work out?

There is absolutely no sign of a majority wanting a united Ireland in the foreseeable future. That is as stable as you can get.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

There is absolutely no sign of a majority wanting a united Ireland in the foreseeable future. That is as stable as you can get.

You are only going to know that conclusively by having an actual poll.
Other than that if it 'appears to the SoS that a majority favours it then he/she can go aheaf fully witin the terms of the GFA.

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

There is absolutely no sign of a majority wanting a united Ireland in the foreseeable future. That is as stable as you can get.

We don't know the criteria as to how he decides that. Someone posted here that Colin Harvey was an eejit for writing to the SoS asking him what the criteria are for his decision.

Its typical British ambiguity/fudging.

If I was FG, I'd be shouting for a referendum now before a few more 100 year anniversaries are arrived at, because when the period of the foundation of the State is more widely known, FG will not have a leg to stand on. For instance, the argument that the ROI can't afford NI when NI was basically sold off by Cosgrave to clear the national debt and this agreement then buried until 1969.