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Where do we go from here?

Cass

First off, and i must stress, this is NOT a political thread nor debate. The Off Topic thread is the place for that.

This is an opinion and suggestion thread.

With the seemingly never-ending and increased "attacks" on all shooting sports, not just here at home, but globally are we on the loosing end of a very long battle or is there hope for the sport?

Between gun bans, mag bans, social media bans on free speech of hunting, the lead ban, and of course public opinion is the sport looking at a slow death of a thousand cuts?

If so what can we do to try stop it and even turn it around.

If not then what can be done to increase the population of the shooting community and finally shed ourselves of the "secrecy" our sport is sometimes forced to implement.

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Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Yet I cant understand that if you have a disused silage clamp or a sand pit on your property, why that can't be used by the owner or his guests?

It'll be a fight and a struggle all because of SI622/2011 which outlined what a range is and what is necessary. Meaning no more "overnight" plinking set-ups.

I doubt we'll get it repealed as its necessary for anyone building a range, but perhaps it can be amended to allow for zeroing, and we can go from there.

Grizzly 45

tudderone wrote: »

Even ranges have clamped down on it. We used to set up clay pigeons or plastic waterbottles on the backstop and shoot them with the rifles, but the club doesn't allow it anymore.

Considering the utter mess you see that some of the lazy fokers leave behind from some of their "targets" and don't even bother to haul out their rubbish off the backstops...Are you surprised?
And this would be one thing thrown back at us Re the County plinking ranges... Pollution and rubbish not being removed to the point of this becoming a virtual fly tip. Not to mind the dreaded LEAD deposits and Noise that will upset the snowflakes. We have to sort those two points out before approaching any PTB re this.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And this would be one thing thrown back at us Re the County plinking ranges...

When i suggested county plinking range i meant full time ranges, just on a small scale. So they'd have an RCO, ROs, members, etc. So none of the problems with "overnight" set ups.

They can be kept to rimfire for the start, but they must be legit ranges so that they can be "protected" under section 2(4)(d) and encourage youngsters.

Feisar

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Considering the utter mess you see that some of the lazy fokers leave behind from some of their "targets" and don't even bother to haul out their rubbish off the backstops...Are you surprised?
And this would be one thing thrown back at us Re the County plinking ranges... Pollution and rubbish not being removed to the point of this becoming a virtual fly tip. Not to mind the dreaded LEAD deposits and Noise that will upset the snowflakes. We have to sort those two points out before approaching any PTB re this.

We used to go to an old disused quarry, it became obvious other lads had never heard of “leave no trace”. No shooting signs up there now.

meathstevie

Grolschevik wrote: »

I don't shoot, but I'd like to.
Not owning property to bolt a safe to is my main issue. Renter.
I'm a long-time lurker here, and I've learned a lot.
I'm fully supportive of you guys and I'm far, far more left than the European average.
Just thought I'd mention it.

I think most if not all in the shooting community will give not give a fiddlers about your political orientation.

I’m quite sure we’re a very varied bunch when it comes to that anyway; personally I’d consider myself neither left nor right as some of my opinions would be classed as right and others as left.

By virtue of the standards of conduct that are expected by law to be able to possess a firearm in this country I reckon we’re a fairly safe bunch to hang around with....

civdef

Driving around the most common reminder I see of shooters is holes in road signs, which is still happening.

Annoys the hell out of me, imagine what impression it gives to a non-shooter.

Feisar

civdef wrote: »

Driving around the most common reminder I see of shooters is holes in road signs, which is still happening.

Annoys the hell out of me, imagine what impression it gives to a non-shooter.

I’d say a lot of non shooters wouldn’t realise how scary that is and see it more as an act of vandalism. However that’s a criminal issue and not a shooting sports one.

meathstevie

12gauge dave wrote: »

With no shooting or practice ranges around there is nowhere for us gun owners without land to shoot on.

You try a bit of lamping and your public enemy number one in the village farmers spreading rumours and being accused of all sorts and guards ringing you the next day.

I haven't shot the gun in years and Id have no problem handing back in at this stage.

Safe places to shoot where owners can hop in the car and go let some lead off for half an hour is what is needed. Classes for youngsters could be given then and it would grow.

Thats my 2 cents as a young gun owner for the last 9 years.

No offence intended but I actually find quite the opposite happens with farmers. Most are very happy to have you around their yard and fields at the most ridiculous times of the night. I’ve been told to park at the yard or in the main gate more so than I’ve been told I couldn’t call around anymore.

You could have been quite unfortunately been blamed for the behaviour of others.

Feisar

Cass wrote: »

When i suggested county plinking range i meant full time ranges, just on a small scale. So they'd have an RCO, ROs, members, etc. So none of the problems with "overnight" set ups.

They can be kept to rimfire for the start, but they must be legit ranges so that they can be "protected" under section 2(4)(d) and encourage youngsters.

How much land does one need for a 22 range? Plus insurance etc it’d be costly enough I’d say.

Cass

civdef wrote: »

Driving around the most common reminder I see of shooters is holes in road signs, which is still happening.

Annoys the hell out of me, imagine what impression it gives to a non-shooter.

Kevlar signs.

I get your point and it pisses me off too. Never actually seen the point of it tbh, but anyway. Unfortunately you cannot cure all ills, but we can educate and try eliminate things like this while distancing ourselves from such acts by denouncing them here and elsewhere.

Feisar

Cass wrote: »

My young lad went through this and still is. He got his training license and was shooting for a short while then he discovered girls, and later on cars. I went through it but came back to the sport in my mid/late twenties. However i'd been at it since i was old enough to stand, my young lad really only came shooting because i dragged him along or asked him. IOW the immediate interest was never really there, so we'll see if he comes back to it.

I've found trying to "force" their interest has the opposite effect so i'll let him come bck to it if and when he is ready. Its for this reason i think starting younger is better, as was said by someone earlier.

I’m one of four. I loved my Dad’s CZ 452 or Brno as it was known as as far back as I can remember. My sister would go for the odd shot here and there but the two other lads had zero interest.
Looking back at it now it must have been a pain in the hole having me in tow out after pheasants.

Cass

Feisar wrote: »

How much land does one need for a 22 range? Plus insurance etc it’d be costly enough I’d say.

Approx 2000 mtrs long by 1000 mtrs wide for the shooting area, for rimfire and some pistol calibers. Other caliber require more and it also depends on the ranges hence why i suggest starting short with 50mtr ranges.

So that works out to a ax of 500 acres. Buying such land is improbably and damn near impossible. Planning permission is needed as well as backstops, club house, etc. You also have to factor in cost of a range fee/license, etc.

So there is significant cost and like all things shooting it comes at the start in one big lump rather than little bit over time.

However renting land could be an option. It'll still require the license fees, building costs, etc. but can be done on a "prepay membership" basis.

I'd hope other ranges would offer help and i know of three or so that have told me they would offer help in the form of fund raising and man hours if needed.

You could look to an enclosed range, indoor, but that carries a host of other issues (sound proofing, ventilation, etc) while at the same time eliminating danger areas. So smaller area but more in terms of building costs.

Won't be easy at all, but is doable.

Cass

Feisar wrote: »

Looking back at it now it must have been a pain in the hole having me in tow out after pheasants.

Just reminded me of the Richard Pryor sketch about hunting with his Father.

Strong language warning. (skip to 4:15 for the deer hunting bit)

https://vimeo.com/33965191

Feisar

Cass wrote: »

Just reminded me of the Richard Pryor sketch about hunting with his Father.

Strong language warning. (skip to 4:15 for the deer hunting bit)

https://vimeo.com/33965191

The funniest man that ever was.

[Deleted User]

Do any of the universities have clubs?

Feisar

riffmongous wrote: »

Do any of the universities have clubs?

UCD, DCU, Trinity do as far as I know.

johnboy1298

Cass wrote: »

First off, and i must stress, this is NOT a political thread nor debate. The Off Topic thread is the place for that.

This is an opinion and suggestion thread.

With the seemingly never-ending and increased "attacks" on all shooting sports, not just here at home, but globally are we on the loosing end of a very long battle or is there hope for the sport?

Between gun bans, mag bans, social media bans on free speech of hunting, the lead ban, and of course public opinion is the sport looking at a slow death of a thousand cuts?

If so what can we do to try stop it and even turn it around.

If not then what can be done to increase the population of the shooting community and finally shed ourselves of the "secrecy" our sport is sometimes forced to implement.

I'd say the biggest thing you could do to further the image of shooting in Ireland is to ban fox hunting with dogs.. I have no problem with shooting birds, deer or foxes for that matter etc but seeing a group of dogs go after a fox is, to me at least, unnecessary. It's something that tarnishes the whole of gun sports as it is cruel and there is no way of explaining the need for it that doesn't sound ridiculous to anyone who doesn't do it. I love the outdoors and often thought about trying shooting but I'd never want to be involved with anyone associated with hunting foxes.

Feisar

johnboy1298 wrote: »

I'd say the biggest thing you could do to further the image of shooting in Ireland is to ban fox hunting with dogs.. I have no problem with shooting birds, deer or foxes for that matter etc but seeing a group of dogs go after a fox is, to me at least, unnecessary. It's something that tarnishes the whole of gun sports as it is cruel and there is no way of explaining the need for it that doesn't sound ridiculous to anyone who doesn't do it. I love the outdoors and often thought about trying shooting but I'd never want to be involved with anyone associated with hunting foxes.

To be fair lads on horses with dogs has nothing to do with shooting.

Feisar

Cass wrote: »

Approx 2000 mtrs long by 1000 mtrs wide

The way we build in this country makes that requirement a rarity.

tudderone

johnboy1298 wrote: »

I'd say the biggest thing you could do to further the image of shooting in Ireland is to ban fox hunting with dogs.. I have no problem with shooting birds, deer or foxes for that matter etc but seeing a group of dogs go after a fox is, to me at least, unnecessary. It's something that tarnishes the whole of gun sports as it is cruel and there is no way of explaining the need for it that doesn't sound ridiculous to anyone who doesn't do it. I love the outdoors and often thought about trying shooting but I'd never want to be involved with anyone associated with hunting foxes.

Hunting has nothing to do with shooting. Its like saying banning tennis would improve the image of football

.

In fact i know of a driven shoot that hated the hunt, having 40 hounds and 2 dozen horses running amok through your cover isn't going to do the pheasants any good.

JP22

I have read all the posts and I believe post 3 by Cass and post 4 by Grizzly is the foundation for the way to go.

Some other thoughts are:-

For such a small country we have multiple organisations all trying to do their own thing, some good, some bad, others are lousy, some talk between each other, others hate each others guts, crazy.

Organisations must stop demeaning the Garda, especially the rank & file who are just doing their job. Yes I accept there are some issues with some Supers, but its the Minister'(s), the Justice department and various other Government Departments who should be called to task.

Yes you can take a case to court if its warranted, you win/you loose, if a win fine but to then publicly denounce them and get personal with it is looking for trouble down the road. Winning a skirmisk is not winning the war.

PR is fine but if its not actively managed and controlled, them mayhem occurs. You cannot castigate the media for airing something inaccurately if no PR present to manage what was filmed and said.

Cass

johnboy1298 wrote: »

I'd say the biggest thing you could do to further the image of shooting in Ireland is to ban fox hunting with dogs..

Here is one of our biggest hurdles. The other sports.

I don't agree with some things but i don't argue against the lads doing it. Its this "give an inch" attitude that has us splintered and always on the back foot.

Now i'm not taking a shot at you, just explaining my own thinking. I don't see the appeal in some forms of hunting or sport. I've no real moral objection to it, i just don't see the enjoyment factor, but if i were to ignore their sport, their tradition or worse still place it on the chopping block (as though it were mine to sacrifice) then how am i any better than those opposed to all forms of hunting.

Once again it comes back to death by a thousand cuts.

We need to be able to work together which means we have to respect other variations of the sport even those we may not like or participate in. We are weaker apart. That sounds like a fortune cookie sound byte but there is truth in it. If we're divided we are more easily controlled and again little bits of our sport are slowly banned because we're a small enough community as a whole, but as parts, we're a walkover.

Cass

Feisar wrote: »

The way we build in this country makes that requirement a rarity.

Its been a while since i read the SI so i'll look it over again, but this SI was based on current ranges and their setups. I assume, as said earlier, that such provisions would be lessened if it had higher baffles, or were enclosed, but i'd need ranges built in such ways to verify that. I know of two ranges that are built into sheer "cliff" faces. The natural baffle is over 100 feet high so the danger zone could be significantly less.

However if we need 2 square km then it'll be a rarity and probably the reason ranges are so isolated.

JP22

Cass wrote: »

Here is one of our biggest hurdles. The other sports.

I don't agree with some things but i don't argue against the lads doing it. Its this "give an inch" attitude that has us splintered and always on the back foot.

Now i'm not taking a shot at you, just explaining my own thinking. I don't see the appeal in some forms of hunting or sport. I've no real moral objection to it, i just don't see the enjoyment factor, but if i were to ignore their sport, their tradition or worse still place it on the chopping block (as though it were mine to sacrifice) then how am i any better than those opposed to all forms of hunting.

Once again it comes back to death by a thousand cuts.

We need to be able to work together which means we have to respect other variations of the sport even those we may not like or participate in. We are weaker apart. That sounds like a fortune cookie sound byte but there is truth in it. If we're divided we are more easily controlled and again little bits of our sport are slowly banned because we're a small enough community as a whole, but as parts, we're a walkover.

+1.

On PR, the clowns who post pictures of dozens of game taken on day one and boast that they shot so-and-so on opening day are not doing our spot/pastime any favor's either. Posting like this is fodder for those against us.

Cass

JP22 wrote: »

PR is fine but if its not actively managed and controlled, them mayhem occurs. You cannot castigate the media for airing something inaccurately if no PR present to manage what was filmed and said.

I agree with everything you said, including the above, but would argue on the media angle.

We tried it twice. Once was a dedicated segment which was eidted to sh*t and made us look really poor. Granted the people speaking should not have been near a microphone in my opinion, but that is a row for another day.

The second was the one everyone seen on RTE. The bias by MOC was not subtle and horribly obvious. Again the man on stage done his best but not being a shooting man, and only having experience with the legal end, had to hamper his ability.

So again i agree we need better PR, or any PR, but (and i won't hold my breath) a fair shake from the media.

tudderone

Cass wrote: »

Its been a while since i read the SI so i'll look it over again, but this SI was based on current ranges and their setups. I assume, as said earlier, that such provisions would be lessened if it had higher baffles, or were enclosed, but i'd need ranges built in such ways to verify that. I know of two ranges that are built into sheer "cliff" faces. The natural baffle is over 100 feet high so the danger zone could be significantly less.

However if we need 2 square km then it'll be a rarity and probably the reason ranges are so isolated.

Looking at our nearest neighbours again, they have 67 million people against our 6-7 million, and on an island not that much bigger than ours. Yet they have some great ranges and near major cities too. Like Diggle range near manchester, Bisley isn't that far from London, Minsterley ranges in Wales etc. The Irish civil service are great for crushing things through unneeded legislation.

Grizzly 45

A better solution to the ranges
40 foot instant range built in a container. Ultra deluxe models Made up in NI, beautiful bit of workmanship and capable of withstanding 50 cal rounds. The AGS have four [?] of them in Templemore and around the country I believe.A snip at about one million euros per unit:eek:
http://www.generalranges.com/

However,if we are talking just .22 and say rating to 44magnum pistol calibre in extremis. How difficult would it be to "homebrew" something like this that would pass the CRI 's muster? Mr G I know would work with us on something like this too.
A lot easier to move a 40-foot container or two than a hunk of land with backstops and berms etc if the neighbours get snotty. And alot cheaper too.

Feisar

johnboy1298 wrote: »

I'd say the biggest thing you could do to further the image of shooting in Ireland is to ban fox hunting with dogs.. I have no problem with shooting birds, deer or foxes for that matter etc but seeing a group of dogs go after a fox is, to me at least, unnecessary. It's something that tarnishes the whole of gun sports as it is cruel and there is no way of explaining the need for it that doesn't sound ridiculous to anyone who doesn't do it. I love the outdoors and often thought about trying shooting but I'd never want to be involved with anyone associated with hunting foxes.

Sorry, this deserved a better response than the one I gave, "nothing to do with us". Yer right in that we all seem to get painted with the one brush. A lad down the range meticulously handloading to squeeze the last out of his target rifle, bloodsport.
I honestly don't know how to start shaking off the perception that a person with a gun must be doing something wrong until proven otherwise. I remember being out with my Dad when I was a little lad, back when one could shoot outside of a range. On my uncle's land minding our own business doing nothing wrong and the Gardaí rocked up! Called by a walker. Keeping in mind this was pre mobile phones so that person had to get home and then call. Anyway it was a shooting buddy of Dad's so a chat was had about the new rifle.

Grizzly 45

On the fox hunting by horse&hound and shooting.
Better to fight the war in someones else's front yard than in our own living room.
Thyt have made it abundantly clear that we hunters and gun owners and fishermen are next in line in their class war.

Munsterlad102

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

On the fox hunting by horse&hound and shooting.
Better to fight the war in someones else's front yard than in our own living room.
Thyt have made it abundantly clear that we hunters and gun owners and fishermen are next in line in their class war.

Yeah that's a really good idea, there's definitely strength in numbers and is something we should persue.