Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

downcow wrote: »

So now you are questioning the ni life and times survey. Haha you’ll find you could hold you next meeting in a phone box It’s highly respected by one and all (except Francie)

Nope...questioning the validity and competence of Trimble's 'special adviser' considering where Trimble led Unionism.

Is it a recent poll?

Fionn1952

Fionn1952 wrote: »

The post you've quoted should've been phrased to include the term civilians, as it was in my initial post.

It was in the link provided; Loyalists were responsible for the murder of 22 Catholic civilians, in total only 27 Protestant civilians have been killed since the GFA. I already stated that I couldn't identify a breakdown of this, but I would presume that >5 of these were committed by Loyalists, which would leave the number killed by Republicans at under 22. Even if Republicans were responsible for every civilian Protestant death (which we know they weren't), your statement that they had killed, 'many times more....' would be incorrect.

Still skipping over this, Downcow?

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Still skipping over this, Downcow?

You present facts that can be backed up, with sources but he will just ignore them and pivot to something else. An old poll in this case.

Most dis-ingenuous debater here TBH and I'm not the first to say it.

Fionn1952

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nope...questioning the validity and competence of Trimble's 'special adviser' considering where Trimble led Unionism.

Is it a recent poll?

2019 is the most recent L&T poll on the topic, Francie.

Fionn1952 wrote: »

2019 is the most recent L&T poll on the topic, Francie.

Yes I see that now. A lot of water under bridges since that,

While the question refers to NI, it is perhaps best thought of by including the republic, and thinking of it as a 1-1 draw.

The republic was a failure for its first 50 years. It really was a basket case of economic, emigration, social backwardness, isolationism, and religion dominated government. It also failed NI with the failures above quite rightly repulsive to unionists, and added to by the background of insurrection, and open and official intent to unite the ireland into a republic. For the last 50 years, follow joining the EU, the republic has been a success. Throwing off all the failures of the first 50 years.

NI has mirrored that. It succeeded in making the best of things following 1922 as best it could considering the odds against it :
- the threat of further secessionist violence from within as had happened in the south
- the siege mentality imposed by having its enemy both within and over the border with ambitions to complete full separation of the island from the UK
- both of the above provoking repression of the northern catholic population.
In the last 50 years, it has been nothing but a failure. Prompted by the forces of the the cornered unionists, and the violence of the republican movement, it has been a most uncivil society. It can only now be truly considered to have moved beyond that.

The republic will be a success for sure in the next 50 years. Northern Ireland is now very well teed up to be so as well - but requires all sides to see that :
- republicans north and south to give up the quest for a united Ireland
- and unionists to let down their guard to integrate fully with republicans, and the republic.
It can be done. I am optimistic, that a similar scoreline in the next 50 years can be 2-2.

Junkyard Tom

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

republicans north and south to give up the quest for a united Ireland

Yeah forget that.

The republican movement lead by the Ira, which a few on here have described as ‘working for peace’ and Francie says killed no one in the three year window following gfa (hardly deserving of a medal even if it was true - which it is not), seem like they are going to be caught with more blood on their hands.
Reports this morning that the net is closing on one of their recent murders which they were give cover by a current sitting SF MP
Paul Quinn, a young man was beaten to death in a barn by 12 men with iron bars and cudgels with nails in them.
Words cannot describe the horror that young man met and that his family must see every time they close their eyes.
How people on here can talk of an organisation working for peace or hold up their leadership who excused the killing.

I honestly would not wish such a death on mass sectarian murderers like Gerry Adams or Jonny Adair.
Can you imagine what was going through the minds of the big men of the IRA as they selected their iron bar or as they drove nails into their selected cudgel, in preparation to breaking a young defenceless mans body into pulp. Mind boggling viciousness.
My heart goes out to the Quinn family as it looks like the denials of the IRA are about to be blown out off the water by new dna evidence

maccored

more avoidance - well done

maccored wrote: »

more avoidance - well done

It wasn’t me claimed the ira were peacemakers and that they hadn’t killed anyone post gfa. I am simply evidencing that some nonsense is claimed on here. And it’s more than nonsense when lives are wrecked.

downcow wrote: »

It wasn’t me claimed the ira were peacemakers and that they hadn’t killed anyone post gfa. I am simply evidencing that some nonsense is claimed on here. And it’s more than nonsense when lives are wrecked.

I presented the data that clearly shows that NO deaths are attributed to the IRA in the 3 years after the GFA 1999/2000/2001. FACT.
What is also a FACT is that the IRA were NOT engaged in a tit for tat in the run up to the GFA with Loyalists, which was ANOTHER claim of yours. I will attach it again and I suggest you study it and withdraw.

This is is a good example. Anyone still debating kill numbers is part of the problem, still doing harm, of the completely wrong mindset.
They will be the ones at fault if NI does not succeed.

Peter Robinson and now Gavin Robinson (are they related btw?) both now admitting to the inevitable. I think it is only a matter of time now until the SoS acts.

Er_5cxwW4AIfO2C?format=jpg&name=900x900

Could be part of a huge question for the UK in general...Scots and NI referendums on the same day anyone?

maccored

downcow wrote: »

It wasn’t me claimed the ira were peacemakers and that they hadn’t killed anyone post gfa. I am simply evidencing that some nonsense is claimed on here. And it’s more than nonsense when lives are wrecked.

you claimed republicans werent looking for peace when adams and humes started talks in the late 80s. History proves you're talking bollox in that regard

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I presented the data that clearly shows that NO deaths are attributed to the IRA in the 3 years after the GFA 1999/2000/2001. FACT.
What is also a FACT is that the IRA were NOT engaged in a tit for tat in the run up to the GFA with Loyalists, which was ANOTHER claim of yours. I will attach it again and I suggest you study it and withdraw.

Wrong and wrong
I did not claim the IRA were involved in tit-for-tat in the lead up to GFA. In fact quite the contrary. I pointed out that they had to massively reduce their sectarian killing because they were chasing votes since the mid-80s and some of their voters did not like them killing people just because they were Protestants.

Please answer the question I asked instead of continually posting up stats from the Internet. Who Do You Think murdered Eamon Collins in January 1999 following his brazen return to Newry in spite of the IRA telling him he would be murdered if he returned.

So Francie, don't misquote me so as you can give the answers you want, and please answer simple questions

maccored wrote: »

you claimed republicans werent looking for peace when adams and humes started talks in the late 80s. History proves you're talking bollox in that regard

Are you really naïve enough to think that the IRA had got one morning and decided they wanted to be the nice guys and therefore they would drop other objectives and seek peace. These are the same guys that still carry out horrific murders (even though Francie think they do not).

Are you for real? Makes all those slaughtered the squabble here even more pathetic if you are correct.

The IRA were overwhelmed with informers, right to the very top of the organisation. They were operating from within a catholic community who was being indiscriminately slaughtered by loyalist thugs in retaliation for pointless IRA attacks. The military were getting more and more sophisticated.
The IRA were not being the good guys. They needed a fig leaf to get out of the hole they dug.
I did not think the Republican leadership would have the audacity, given how they devastated lives, and indeed tortured and murdered many of their own loyal members to unwittingly cover for British agents, to look after themselves in the process.

They got their Armani suits, holiday homes in Donegal, seats in the British institutions in Stormont, etc, etc, while their volunteers were left with the guilt and trauma.

So do I think they became Buddhists overnight - absolutely not

downcow wrote: »

Wrong and wrong
I did not claim the IRA were involved in tit-for-tat in the lead up to GFA. In fact quite the contrary. I pointed out that they had to massively reduce their sectarian killing because they were chasing votes since the mid-80s and some of their voters did not like them killing people just because they were Protestants.

Please answer the question I asked instead of continually posting up stats from the Internet. Who Do You Think murdered Eamon Collins in January 1999 following his brazen return to Newry in spite of the IRA telling him he would be murdered if he returned.

So Francie, don't misquote me so as you can give the answers you want, and please answer simple questions

I have no idea who killed Eamonn Collins.

What I do know is that there are no deaths attributed to the IRA in 1999/2000/2001 according to CAIN. Loyalists, whom you claimed stopped when the IRA stopped killed 29 people in those 3 years.

I.E. While the IRA worked on the peace, Loyalism and dissidents were trying to wreck the peace.
Those are the FACTS of the stats.

If you can dispute that with backed up sources, go ahead. Third invitation to you now to do so.

You hate statistics and facts. This we know.

maccored

downcow wrote: »

Are you really naïve enough to think that the IRA had got one morning and decided they wanted to be the nice guys and therefore they would drop other objectives and seek peace. These are the same guys that still carry out horrific murders (even though Francie think they do not).

Are you for real? Makes all those slaughtered the squabble here even more pathetic if you are correct.

The IRA were overwhelmed with informers, right to the very top of the organisation. They were operating from within a catholic community who was being indiscriminately slaughtered by loyalist thugs in retaliation for pointless IRA attacks. The military were getting more and more sophisticated.
The IRA were not being the good guys. They needed a fig leaf to get out of the hole they dug.
I did not think the Republican leadership would have the audacity, given how they devastated lives, and indeed tortured and murdered many of their own loyal members to unwittingly cover for British agents, to look after themselves in the process.

They got their Armani suits, holiday homes in Donegal, seats in the British institutions in Stormont, etc, etc, while their volunteers were left with the guilt and trauma.

So do I think they became Buddhists overnight - absolutely not

so you are in denial then that the humes and adams talks lead to the peace process.

says a lot - typical unionist.

maccored wrote: »

so you are in denial then that the humes and adams talks lead to the peace process.

says a lot - typical unionist.

The stark reality of the late 90's is that Loyalism(and dissidents) resisted the peace and the current leading Unionist party facilitated that resistance and actually drove it. They still do resist it, given the chance.
Anyone could see that they tried (pathetically as it turned out) to destroy the GFA yet again over Brexit. But what was built by Hume, Adams, The Irish Gov and the British Gov (who have had their fill of belligerent Unionism IMO) was and remains stronger than belligerent Unionism and long may that continue.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Are you really naïve enough to think that the IRA had got one morning and decided they wanted to be the nice guys and therefore they would drop other objectives and seek peace. These are the same guys that still carry out horrific murders (even though Francie think they do not).

McGuinness and Adams were initially brought into talks in 1973 (prior to the failed Sunneningdale Agreement) with the British Gov. (and then excluded). That suggests that they wanted to go a peaceful route long before all those needless deaths on both sides.

UDAWINNER

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have no idea who killed Eamonn Collins.

What I do know is that there are no deaths attributed to the IRA in 1999/2000/2001 according to CAIN. Loyalists, whom you claimed stopped when the IRA stopped killed 29 people in those 3 years.

I.E. While the IRA worked on the peace, Loyalism and dissidents were trying to wreck the peace.
Those are the FACTS of the stats.

If you can dispute that with backed up sources, go ahead. Third invitation to you now to do so.

You hate statistics and facts. This we know.

Francie, You should know by now that when Downcow and his fellow travellers are beaten, they do not answer or when they do, they deflect.

jm08

Interesting that the Gardai have got some leads in the Paul Quinn murder. Seemingly, people who were reluctant to come forward in the past are now doing so. The Aaron Brady conviction seems to have broken the south Armagh Omerta.

https://www.thesun.ie/news/6423416/paul-quinn-murder-mob-new-inquiry-family/

Worth noting as well that Brady was put in with the criminals in Portlaoise and not the republican prisoners because the republicans were none too happy about Brady's criminal activities around the border area and he would not have lasted jitime.

A debate such as the above unfortunately continues NI as a failed entity. The difference now though is that it is 100% the fault of republicans, still obsessed with a united Ireland when it is in the interest of all that they should work on building what they have, which is now very good, rather than chasing a ghost of the past. Let it go lads, let it go.

Granadino

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I presented the data that clearly shows that NO deaths are attributed to the IRA in the 3 years after the GFA 1999/2000/2001. FACT.
What is also a FACT is that the IRA were NOT engaged in a tit for tat in the run up to the GFA with Loyalists, which was ANOTHER claim of yours. I will attach it again and I suggest you study it and withdraw.

Unreal that stats are being used by a few folk as a themuns v usuns.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Yeah forget that.

A united Ireland should be forgotten. It is an obsolete concept, and considering it a live and valid pursuit, is a harmful anachronism from those unable to get on with living real lives in a peaceful, integrated, dynamic social and economic environment.

Granadino wrote: »

Unreal that stats are being used by a few folk as a themuns v usuns.

They are only used when blatant lies are told about them. The past is the past but nobody should get away about lying about it.

maccored wrote: »

so you are in denial then that the humes and adams talks lead to the peace process.

says a lot - typical unionist.

A complete spin again. Of course their talks led to the 'peace process', but the IRAs motive was to create a fig leaf for themselves - they have proved many times since that they are not peacemakers

jm08

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

A debate such as the above unfortunately continues NI as a failed entity. The difference now though is that it is 100% the fault of republicans, still obsessed with a united Ireland when it is in the interest of all that they should work on building what they have, which is now very good, rather than chasing a ghost of the past. Let it go lads, let it go.

How do you mean ''let it go''? Let what go? What difference will it make?

downcow wrote: »

Are you really naïve enough to think that the IRA had got one morning and decided they wanted to be the nice guys and therefore they would drop other objectives and seek peace. These are the same guys that still carry out horrific murders (even though Francie think they do not).

It is beyond rational debate that all IRA members and anyone helping them are murderous thugs who are the lowest scum of the earth. There is no civilised argument to justify anything that they did. Anyone espousing the opposite can be considered as having no view or opinion of any value.