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Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

[Deleted User]

Is there another way of looking at it?
It’s still very, very divided, and actually seems to be getting more polarized over the last five years. It’s economy is woeful, very heavily dependent on the public sector.
Unionists are making plans to celebrate its centenary, but there seems to be very little to be happy with, certainly far less than the Republic or the rest of the UK.
No point in arguing about a border poll on this thread, but is there any possible way of looking at NI as a social, political and economic failure?

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Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Deflecting again. Why not answer the question.
Do you think republicans or loyalists have killed the most people since gfa?
Do you think republicans have killed many times as many unionists as loyalists have killed nationalists since the gfa?
Simple questions

The majority of Republican killings were security forces.

The vast majority of Unionist killings were innocent Catholics.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Deflecting again. Why not answer the question.
Do you think republicans or loyalists have killed the most people since gfa?
Do you think republicans have killed many times as many unionists as loyalists have killed nationalists since the gfa?
Simple questions

It may be a simple question, but it is also a massive shifting of the goalposts. Your starting point was SF/IRA. You clearly realised the numbers didn't look how you wanted them to and pivoted to include dissident Republicans.

The 29 killed by the Omagh bombing would skew the numbers pretty heavily on the Republican side, but I don't see what bearing this has on a discussion around the Provos and the GFA.

Edit: The numbers I can find on it quotes 'security related killings' up until April of 2018. I doubt trends have changed hugely since then. It puts the total number of murders by Republicans at 74, Loyalists at 75, 1 Gardai, 2 suicides and 4 unknown, that is including the Omagh bombing.

Loyalists were responsible for 22 Catholic civilians. A total of 27 Protestant civilians have been killed, I know 10 of these were killed by the Omagh bomb, the other 17 I can't see attributed, but unless a total of less than 5 were killed by Loyalists, the answer to your question would be Loyalists (even including the Omagh bombing)

Source; https://thedetail.tv/articles/the-cruel-peace-killings-in-northern-ireland-since-the-good-friday-agreement

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Deflecting again. Why not answer the question.
Do you think republicans or loyalists have killed the most people since gfa?
Do you think republicans have killed many times as many unionists as loyalists have killed nationalists since the gfa?
Simple questions

Not deflecting, I challenged your bull**** about the IRA with the hard numerical facts.

Before you start making demands, how about you withdraw what you said?

FrancieBrady

Fionn1952 wrote: »

It may be a simple question, but it is also a massive shifting of the goalposts. Your starting point was SF/IRA. You clearly realised the numbers didn't look how you wanted them to and pivoted to include dissident Republicans.

The 29 killed by the Omagh bombing would skew the numbers pretty heavily on the Republican side, but I don't see what bearing this has on a discussion around the Provos and the GFA.

Edit: The numbers I can find on it quotes 'security related killings' up until April of 2018. I doubt trends have changed hugely since then. It puts the total number of murders by Republicans at 74, Loyalists at 75, 1 Gardai, 2 suicides and 4 unknown, that is including the Omagh bombing.

Source; https://thedetail.tv/articles/the-cruel-peace-killings-in-northern-ireland-since-the-good-friday-agreement

Thankfully someone else saw the pivot.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The majority of Republican killings were security forces.

The vast majority of Unionist killings were innocent Catholics.

Wrong again tom. In fact 100% wrong. Where do you live, Australia?
Since the gfa (which was the question).
The vast majority of republican killings were NOT security forces (I reckon less than 10%)
The loyalist killings were almost (if not entirely) Protestants and most of them were not innocent ie drug and racketeering.

Now tell me I am wrong.
This really is embarrassing that you are so blinkered or out of touch

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

It may be a simple question, but it is also a massive shifting of the goalposts. Your starting point was SF/IRA. You clearly realised the numbers didn't look how you wanted them to and pivoted to include dissident Republicans.

The 29 killed by the Omagh bombing would skew the numbers pretty heavily on the Republican side, but I don't see what bearing this has on a discussion around the Provos and the GFA.

Edit: The numbers I can find on it quotes 'security related killings' up until April of 2018. I doubt trends have changed hugely since then. It puts the total number of murders by Republicans at 74, Loyalists at 75, 1 Gardai, 2 suicides and 4 unknown, that is including the Omagh bombing.

Loyalists were responsible for 22 Catholic civilians. A total of 27 Protestant civilians have been killed, I know 10 of these were killed by the Omagh bomb, the other 17 I can't see attributed, but unless a total of less than 5 were killed by Loyalists, the answer to your question would be Loyalists (even including the Omagh bombing)

Source; https://thedetail.tv/articles/the-cruel-peace-killings-in-northern-ireland-since-the-good-friday-agreement

Fionn I expected more of you. What organisation do you think the Omagh bombers learnt all their skulls in and their ability to plant murderous bombs. How long were they ‘officially’ left the ira if they even were? Where did the get their bombmaking material? How many current MLAs supported them? How many current MLAs and MPs knew exactly who done it but wouldn’t shop them?

I am glad you put the link on as others can read and make up for themselves who is continuing the inter-community conflict, republicans or loyalist.
The loyalist paramilitaries are scumbags focused on their drug territories.
The republican paramilitaries are scumbags focused on their drug territories and the sectarian conflict.

How you can try to airbrush out Omagh and yet drag in stuff not attributable to any loyalist paramilitary group really means you need to have a cold shower and a good look at your prejudice.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Fionn I expected more of you. What organisation do you think the Omagh bombers learnt all their skulls in and their ability to plant murderous bombs. How long were they ‘officially’ left the ira if they even were? Where did the get their bombmaking material? How many current MLAs supported them? How many current MLAs and MPs knew exactly who done it but wouldn’t shop them?

Go on, tell us.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

In the three years after 1998 and the GFA....... the IRA killed 0
.

Francie, even taking your super tight parameters designed to defend you hero’s the Ra, tell me who you think murdered Eamon Collins on the 27th January 1999?
Maybe it was the brits or even the loyalists. Francie you are so wound up in prejudice, bigotry and unresolved guilt about what your guys done to my community, not to mention the hurt from the 1998 surrender .
You will be happier if you can shake that all off. I personally understand how it could happen. Things were very difficult and the two communities seriously mistrusted each other.
Maybe the gfa was a mistake for republicans, but it’s there now, make the most of it

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Fionn I expected more of you. What organisation do you think the Omagh bombers learnt all their skulls in and their ability to plant murderous bombs. How long were they ‘officially’ left the ira if they even were? Where did the get their bombmaking material? How many current MLAs supported them? How many current MLAs and MPs knew exactly who done it but wouldn’t shop them?

I am glad you put the link on as others can read and make up for themselves who is continuing the inter-community conflict, republicans or loyalist.
The loyalist paramilitaries are scumbags focused on their drug territories.
The republican paramilitaries are scumbags focused on their drug territories and the sectarian conflict.

How you can try to airbrush out Omagh and yet drag in stuff not attributable to any loyalist paramilitary group really means you need to have a cold shower and a good look at your prejudice.

Expected more from me, Downcow? I answered the question you answered , with a source. I didn't make any observation or judgement on any of the murders, just directly answered your question; Loyalists are responsible for more murders since the GFA, and to the best of my knowledge Loyalists have killed more Catholics than Republicans have killed Protestants since the GFA. I could've of course discussed how most of the murders have been Loyalist paramilitary in-fighting, but that wasn't the question you asked.

Every number I quoted includes the Omagh bombing, Downcow. I highlighted it as it was a one off event rather than part of a recurring pattern. I absolutely haven't tried to airbrush it out; the article does quote numbers excluding the Omagh bombing, but I chose to quote the numbers including it.

If a Loyalist paramilitary learned how to fire a gun serving in the British Army, would you say the army are responsible for any subsequent murders they commit?

They officially left the PIRA at the point the GFA was agreed, Downcow. You know this, you're just desperately backpedalling now that your pivot has been highlighted.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Loyalists have killed more Catholics than Republicans have killed Protestants since the GFA.

Fionn. I usually find you to have a reasonable level of integrity. I would love to continue in that belief but this quote of yours seems of the wall to me. Could you share your source?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie, even taking your super tight parameters designed to defend you hero’s the Ra, tell me who you think murdered Eamon Collins on the 27th January 1999?
Maybe it was the brits or even the loyalists. Francie you are so wound up in prejudice, bigotry and unresolved guilt about what your guys done to my community, not to mention the hurt from the 1998 surrender .
You will be happier if you can shake that all off. I personally understand how it could happen. Things were very difficult and the two communities seriously mistrusted each other.
Maybe the gfa was a mistake for republicans, but it’s there now, make the most of it

No heroes of mine downcow, but the truth is important because of how people like you pivot and twist.

Here are the facts and figures,I used. If you have different facts by all means present them.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Fionn. I usually find you to have a reasonable level of integrity. I would love to continue in that belief but this quote of yours seems of the wall to me. Could you share your source?

The post you've quoted should've been phrased to include the term civilians, as it was in my initial post.

It was in the link provided; Loyalists were responsible for the murder of 22 Catholic civilians, in total only 27 Protestant civilians have been killed since the GFA. I already stated that I couldn't identify a breakdown of this, but I would presume that >5 of these were committed by Loyalists, which would leave the number killed by Republicans at under 22. Even if Republicans were responsible for every civilian Protestant death (which we know they weren't), your statement that they had killed, 'many times more....' would be incorrect.

JasonStatham

Man, this thread has pages and pages of useless bickering. Did yis actually solve the OPs original question? Surely NI is a success story, given the impact of the GFA and the fact that the Assembly is still going even in light of huge challenges like Brexit.

Fionn1952

JasonStatham wrote: »

Man, this thread has pages and pages of useless bickering. Did yis actually solve the OPs original question? Surely NI is a success story, given the impact of the GFA and the fact that the Assembly is still going even in light of huge challenges like Brexit.

Depends on where one sets the bar for success really. While the answer to the original question is subjective, you'd have to set it pretty low to call NI a 'success story'.

The fact that the GFA was required would suggest it isn't a success story. Occasionally managing to maintain a functioning government that has specific rules in place to prevent gross misrule by a simple majority (the power sharing rules) is certainly below where I'd place the bar for declaring something a success story.

downcow

JasonStatham wrote: »

Man, this thread has pages and pages of useless bickering. Did yis actually solve the OPs original question? Surely NI is a success story, given the impact of the GFA and the fact that the Assembly is still going even in light of huge challenges like Brexit.

I’ll call it again. A good point to end a thread that is disproven and disgusting

Thanks for your input. But unfortunately some diehard republicans are creaming themselves at the thought that ni might have sunk lower than ROI. Unfortunately all the evidence suggests otherwise.

I do think this thread is getting poisonous but yet continues unabated. Some very very bigoted prejudiced thinking being exposed, which I guess is important.

downcow

Quote: FrancieBrady

In the three years after 1998 and the GFA....... the IRA killed 0
.

downcow wrote: »

Francie, even taking your super tight parameters designed to defend you hero’s the Ra, tell me who you think murdered Eamon Collins on the 27th January 1999?
Maybe it was the brits or even the loyalists. Francie you are so wound up in prejudice, bigotry and unresolved guilt about what your guys done to my community, not to mention the hurt from the 1998 surrender .
You will be happier if you can shake that all off. I personally understand how it could happen. Things were very difficult and the two communities seriously mistrusted each other.
Maybe the gfa was a mistake for republicans, but it’s there now, make the most of it

Any chance of a reply Francie ?????

FrancieBrady

JasonStatham wrote: »

Man, this thread has pages and pages of useless bickering. Did yis actually solve the OPs original question? Surely NI is a success story, given the impact of the GFA and the fact that the Assembly is still going even in light of huge challenges like Brexit.

The existence of the GFA is the very essence of NI's failure. It is a mechanism to supervise it's day to day functioning. It wouldn't without it.

You can moan and protest but fact is fact.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Quote: FrancieBrady

In the three years after 1998 and the GFA....... the IRA killed 0
.

Any chance of a reply Francie ?????

The data is in the CAIN cross tabulation I posted.

downcow

Quote: FrancieBrady

In the three years after 1998 and the GFA....... the IRA killed 0
.

Quote: downcow
Francie, even taking your super tight parameters designed to defend you hero’s the Ra, tell me who you think murdered Eamon Collins on the 27th January 1999?
Maybe it was the brits or even the loyalists. Francie you are so wound up in prejudice, bigotry and unresolved guilt about what your guys done to my community, not to mention the hurt from the 1998 surrender .
You will be happier if you can shake that all off. I personally understand how it could happen. Things were very difficult and the two communities seriously mistrusted each other.
Maybe the gfa was a mistake for republicans, but it’s there now, make the most of it

Any chance of a reply Francie ?????

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The data is in the CAIN cross tabulation I posted.

Francie. These are not complex questions. Posting links doesn’t hack it. You are being found out in your inability to admit you were either wittingly or unwittingly WRONG.

The question is who you think murdered Eamon Collins (and then a we attached acknowledgment that you were 100% wrong). Thanks in anticipation

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Quote: FrancieBrady

In the three years after 1998 and the GFA....... the IRA killed 0
.

Quote: downcow
Francie, even taking your super tight parameters designed to defend you hero’s the Ra, tell me who you think murdered Eamon Collins on the 27th January 1999?
Maybe it was the brits or even the loyalists. Francie you are so wound up in prejudice, bigotry and unresolved guilt about what your guys done to my community, not to mention the hurt from the 1998 surrender .
You will be happier if you can shake that all off. I personally understand how it could happen. Things were very difficult and the two communities seriously mistrusted each other.
Maybe the gfa was a mistake for republicans, but it’s there now, make the most of it

Any chance of a reply Francie ?????

Francie. These are not complex questions. Posting links doesn’t hack it. You are being found out in your inability to admit you were either wittingly or unwittingly WRONG.

The question is who you think murdered Eamon Collins (and then a we attached acknowledgment that you were 10% wrong). Thanks in anticipation

Not seeing how I am wrong downcow it is there in the colums...no deaths attributed to the IRA 1999/2000/2001.

If you have alternative backed up facts - present them.

Fionn1952

Fionn1952 wrote: »

The post you've quoted should've been phrased to include the term civilians, as it was in my initial post.

It was in the link provided; Loyalists were responsible for the murder of 22 Catholic civilians, in total only 27 Protestant civilians have been killed since the GFA. I already stated that I couldn't identify a breakdown of this, but I would presume that >5 of these were committed by Loyalists, which would leave the number killed by Republicans at under 22. Even if Republicans were responsible for every civilian Protestant death (which we know they weren't), your statement that they had killed, 'many times more....' would be incorrect.

Rude to skip past this when you requested it, Downcow.

downcow

Northern Ireland a failure! It’s funny only 22% want to escape to the utopia of a United ireland. It’s just never happening guys. We need to develop really strong cross border relationships for the benefit of all. Republicans need to leave stage left.
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/unionists-take-heart-gold-standard-polls-show-22-back-irish-unity-3102294?fbclid=IwAR3JxHSeTAjUMJKFhKiEOQ7fJUb7KS5IGchUpHPJWeLFc7zEMafPV_THKY4

I’d love us to have fantastic relationships across this beautiful island but not to covet each other

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Northern Ireland a failure! It’s funny only 22% want to escape to the utopia of a United ireland. It’s just never happening guys. We need to develop really strong cross border relationships for the benefit of all. Republicans need to leave stage left.
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/unionists-take-heart-gold-standard-polls-show-22-back-irish-unity-3102294?fbclid=IwAR3JxHSeTAjUMJKFhKiEOQ7fJUb7KS5IGchUpHPJWeLFc7zEMafPV_THKY4

I’d love us to have fantastic relationships across this beautiful island but not to covet each other

David Trimble's adviser? That'd be like me posting Gerry's predictions.

downcow

maccored wrote: »

making up your own version of history. all im going to say is its interesting how unionism didnt involve themselves in the early discussions between hume and adams. you know - the talks you pretended didnt happen as apparently republicans werent looking for a peaceful resolution (when they obviously were).

You should try facts instead of makeyuppy nonsense

Here’s a nice guy that was into peace (or else not) https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/new-biography-martin-mcguinness-ruthless-torturer-who-personally-shot-victims-3098189

Fionn1952

FrancieBrady wrote: »

David Trimble's adviser? That'd be like me posting Gerry's predictions.

I'll take an article in the Newsletter by Trimble's advisor with about as large a pinch of salt as I would an average article in An Phoblacht...

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

David Trimble's adviser? That'd be like me posting Gerry's predictions.

So now you are questioning the ni life and times survey. Haha you’ll find you could hold you next meeting in a phone box It’s highly respected by one and all (except Francie)

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I'll take an article in the Newsletter by Trimble's advisor with about as large a pinch of salt as I would an average article in An Phoblacht...

Don’t shot the messenger. You’ll find it all in the Northern Ireland Life and Times Stidy. Enjoy

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So now you are questioning the ni life and times survey. Haha you’ll find you could hold you next meeting in a phone box It’s highly respected by one and all (except Francie)

I got as far as he was Trimble's advisor.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

David Trimble's adviser? That'd be like me posting Gerry's predictions.

So now you are questioning the ni life and times survey. Haha you’ll find you could hold you next meeting in a phone box It’s highly respected by one and all (except Francie)

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Here’s a nice guy that was into peace (or else not) https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/new-biography-martin-mcguinness-ruthless-torturer-who-personally-shot-victims-3098189

Could have sworn there was somebody in here a while ago giving out about:

downcow wrote:

We are back to talking about stuff that happened half a century

Never change downcow