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ESB eCars

liamog

Details from the dail on the eCars €10,000,000 expansion programme.

The key elements include six high speed charging hubs on motorways capable of charging eight vehicles simultaneously; 16 high speed charging hubs capable of charging four vehicles simultaneously; additional high power chargers at 34 current 50 kW locations; upgrading over 50 22 kW chargers to 50 kW, and replacing up to 264 locations with 528 charge points at the pre-existing pilot grade of 22 kW to next generation high reliability models.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-01-24/10/?fbclid=IwAR1eGLQjNFuywCoaB__FJADns7gNOD09DaR9XLueHAKZ8vljfd-kL-_LpDs

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Black_Knight

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Solution;

No Overstay Fee on 7kW units - All train station/park and ride facility units to be limited to 7kW - Any Train station that has a twin AC22 (44kW supply) could have 3 twin 7kW AC units, so 6 spaces instead of the 2 they have now without needing any supply upgrades... (who needs 22kW in a place they are most likely going to be parked for a minimum of 8 hours... (the can still take 63kWh in 8 hours from a 7kW unit). - All other units to be 22kW units.

No Overstay Fee on 22kW units if the charge was started between 8pm & 4am, but any charge started during these hours must be unplugged from the unit by 9am the following morning, otherwise overstay fee applies. All Other times, overstay fee kicks in 20-30 minutes after charge ends and vehicle is not unplugged.

Cheaper rate for 'night' charging, but the cheap rate starts at ~8pm and goes til ~6am - a rate that competes with current home night rates, makes it fair for folks that can't home charge, and for those that can home charge, it's an incentive to use the ESB network if your out and about after 8pm and need some charge (generating revenue for ESB).

AC22 units to be installed in banks of 2 or 3, so up to 6 cars can use them at once (if supply allows this).

There's some very sound logic there, but there's also some very varied use cases. Shift workers for example. Send

Black_Knight

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Solution;

No Overstay Fee on 7kW units - All train station/park and ride facility units to be limited to 7kW - Any Train station that has a twin AC22 (44kW supply) could have 3 twin 7kW AC units, so 6 spaces instead of the 2 they have now without needing any supply upgrades... (who needs 22kW in a place they are most likely going to be parked for a minimum of 8 hours... (the can still take 63kWh in 8 hours from a 7kW unit). - All other units to be 22kW units.

No Overstay Fee on 22kW units if the charge was started between 8pm & 4am, but any charge started during these hours must be unplugged from the unit by 9am the following morning, otherwise overstay fee applies. All Other times, overstay fee kicks in 20-30 minutes after charge ends and vehicle is not unplugged.

Cheaper rate for 'night' charging, but the cheap rate starts at ~8pm and goes til ~6am - a rate that competes with current home night rates, makes it fair for folks that can't home charge, and for those that can home charge, it's an incentive to use the ESB network if your out and about after 8pm and need some charge (generating revenue for ESB).

AC22 units to be installed in banks of 2 or 3, so up to 6 cars can use them at once (if supply allows this).

There's some very sound logic there, but there's also some very varied use cases. Shift workers for example. Seems like they're going to get stuck for either higher rates or and overstay fee... Or both. Night rate should be at night for overnight usage, not 8pm, but I like the idea.

There's just no one solution to suit all, and invariably you'd end up ostracising a group of potential users. I don't envy them making the decision, but I agree something needs to be done.

Busman Paddy Lasty

Black_Knight wrote: »

There's some very sound logic there, but there's also some very varied use cases. Shift workers for example. Seems like they're going to get stuck for either higher rates or and overstay fee... Or both. Night rate should be at night for overnight usage, not 8pm, but I like the idea.

There's just no one solution to suit all, and invariably you'd end up ostracising a group of potential users. I don't envy them making the decision, but I agree something needs to be done.

Yes it's mainly 22 kW units now as the old ones are replaced. So your one solution is now a problem as EV sales rise.

There's a tiered pricing vs spatial needs formula to be made. Three price tiers and possibly a Nightsavers Club too, the latter being the cheapest. Nobody need be ostracized once the right chargepoint for the use case is installed. Train stations don't need any more than 7 kW for commuters. Nightsavers the same, sh*t loads of sockets are needed.

Existing price could be kept for 22 kW units. 18c for 7 kW units and maybe 10c or even less for Nightsavers. Suitable/realistic time limits relative to expected parking time per use case.

zg3409

Black_Knight wrote: »

All is not quiet.
Over the last 2 weeks about 17 sites have had their old crappy AC units replaced with the new eVolve Smart T AC units.

Glebe Street, Mohill, Leitrim
The Square, Listowel, Kerry
Irish Rail, Mary Street, Arklow, Wicklow
Off Chapel Lane, Callan, Kilkenny
Fair Green Car Park, Off Gaol Road, Kilkenny City, Kilkenny
Market Square, Longford, Longford
Parnell Square West, Outside Rotunda Hospital, Dublin 1
Finglas Road, Dublin, Dublin 11
Greenhills Road, Walkinstown, Dublin 12
Main Street, Bailieborough, Cavan
Kincora Road, Clontarf, Dublin 3
Sportsfield Road, Sneem, Kerry
Thorncastle Street, Ringsend, Dublin 4 X2
Irish Rail Dalkey DART Station, Ardeveehan Road, Dalkey, Dublin X2

Plugshare app updated for all these sites.

Town Centre Car Park, Off Main Street, Roscommon Town, Roscommon X2

This charger was already a new type replaced earlier this year. Not a good sign if they had to put in a different unit to replace it, why not fix it?

A good few of those sites had one side faulty reported at one stage or not working so it should improve network reliability if these units prove more reliable or easier to fix.

Black_Knight

zg3409 wrote: »

This charger was already a new type replaced earlier this year. Not a good sign if they had to put in a different unit to replace it, why not fix it?

A good few of those sites had one side faulty reported at one stage or not working so it should improve network reliability if these units prove more reliable or easier to fix.

Was it? Ecars says both were Elektromotive - 165 units. They're hideously old.

Are you thinking of Boyle perhaps, or does plugshare show a newer unit from months ago?

EDIT> You've updated the wrong one. This is the one that got replaced:
https://www.plugshare.com/location/35198

innrain

I came across a report here https://www.acea.be/publications/article/making-the-transition-to-zero-emission-mobility-2020-progress-report
I know they don't have the best intentions at hearth but with a grain of salt one can make his own readings.
On page 25 I found this table which I think is a very good metric for a national charging network

ECV market share / charging points per 100 km of road*, by country (2019)

Country ECV share Charging points per 100 km
Netherlands 15.00% 36.4
Luxembourg n/a 31.6
Germany 3.00% 17.6
Portugal 5.70% 12.5
United Kingdom 3.10% 6.8
Belgium 3.20% 4.2
Sweden 11.30% 4.1
Denmark 4.20% 3.8
Italy 0.90% 3.7
Malta n/a 3.6
Austria 3.50% 3.4
France 2.80% 2.8
Finland 6.90% 2.8
Croatia n/a 2.3
Slovenia 0.90% 1.6
Slovakia 0.40% 1.1
Ireland 4.10% 1.1
Spain 1.40% 0.9
Estonia 0.30% 0.7
Bulgaria 0.60% 0.7
Czech Republic 0.50% 0.6
Latvia 0.50% 0.4
Romania 0.90% 0.4
Cyprus n/a 0.4
Lithuania 0.40% 0.3
Hungary 1.90% 0.3
Poland 0.50% 0.2
Greece 0.40% 0.1

Not sure if any words are needed. In a different thread someone was surprised to se the high EV adoption in Nederlands. Still surprised? 36 times more chargers!
The authors are puzzled
"All EU member states with less than 2 charging points per 100 km of road have an ECV market share of under 2%, except for Ireland." - Would it be the "free" charging that led the Irish drivers to put up with such objectionable network? The data is from 2019 but I bet the gap increased as Ionity has 99 live hubs in Germany and in UK Gridserve opened 25% of Irish fast chargers in one places, while ecars are still replacing old units which in any other business doesn't even gets mentioned.

MJohnston

How does nobody understand that the dynamic involved with a charging network on an isolated island is utterly different to that of a continental country?

liamog

MJohnston wrote: »

How does nobody understand that the dynamic involved with a charging network on an isolated island is utterly different to that of a continental country?

If you plot a graph of those numbers, there isn't a strong correlation between number of charging sites and EV share (take Germany as the counter example to Ireland). The fact that we have strong incentives and a high degree of homes with private parking are the drivers of our EV adoption.

MJohnston

liamog wrote: »

If you plot a graph of those numbers, there isn't a strong correlation between number of charging sites and EV share (take Germany as the counter example to Ireland). The fact that we have strong incentives and a high degree of homes with private parking are the drivers of our EV adoption.

Right and Germany can create a charging network that people from neighbouring countries will be able to frequently use during continental travel, even though there aren’t that many EVs per capita in the country itself.

innrain

I read the metric of chargers density as:"When I'm out and about, at any given point, what is the maximum distance I have to drive should I need a charger"
Based on the figures above for Ireland that is around 90km while for Portugal is 8km and for NL is less than 3km. The authors look at 50km point because in ICE cars that would be the fuel reserve when the low fuel light will show.
This distance has direct correlation with range anxiety especially when people decide to buy a new car. I'm not saying having chargers is the solution but it is a factor.

About the incentives they have another report and Ireland in not at the top https://www.acea.be/publications/article/overview-of-incentives-for-buying-electric-vehicles
or
https://www.acea.be/publications/article/making-the-transition-to-zero-emission-mobility-2020-progress-report
This last one is updated for 2020 and looks at a more in-dept analysis of switching to EV. Affordability could be a good reason. There is no point to think that Romania offering 11.5k will have a major impact when their GDP per capita is 10 times less than the Irish one. No wonder the EV market share there is close to zero.
So yes buying a new car is a complex decision but having a national network where you could have to drive 90 km to charge does not help. Island or not

Kramer

MJohnston wrote: »

the dynamic involved with a charging network on an isolated island

I've no idea what dynamic is involved, nor do I care. All i know is we, taxpayers, are pumping in millions & getting very little in return.

22kW AC points in Tesco are no use to me.

150kW DC units, 2 per site, on inter-urban routes, aka HUBS, would be of benefit, but we haven't any from eCars, just private companies - Tesla & Ionity.

If I leave home, usually with a full battery, I can travel 200km+ before needing a charge. A 25/30 minute stop at a 150kW DC charger gets me on my way again, either onwards, or back home.

30 mins in a Tesco gets most EV drivers, at 7kW, probably 40km.

Being a relatively small island should have made it easier for eCars in my opinion. No real cross border cooperation required, no foreign supply companies to negotiate with, a half dozen arterial routes to service with small hubs.

That's the only dynamic eCars needed, but alas, computer says no

Black_Knight

Kramer wrote: »

I've no idea what dynamic is involved, nor do I care. All i know is we, taxpayers, are pumping in millions & getting very little in return.

22kW AC points in Tesco are no use to me.

150kW DC units, 2 per site, on inter-urban routes, aka HUBS, would be of benefit, but we haven't any from eCars, just private companies - Tesla & Ionity.

If I leave home, usually with a full battery, I can travel 200km+ before needing a charge. A 25/30 minute stop at a 150kW DC charger gets me on my way again, either onwards, or back home.

30 mins in a Tesco gets most EV drivers 7kWh, probably 40km.

Being a relatively small island should have made it easier for eCars in my opinion. No real cross border cooperation required, no foreign supply companies to negotiate with, a half dozen arterial routes to service with small hubs.

That's the only dynamic eCars needed, but alas, computer says no .

I'd love to get 7kWh in 30 minutes from an AC unit. Most would get half that. Some will get 3/4 that, and a rare few will get 11kWh in 30 minutes

Kramer

Black_Knight wrote: »

I'd love to get 7kWh in 30 minutes from an AC

Should a got a Tesla then :P.

Fixed, but good rant, no?

Busman Paddy Lasty

MJohnston wrote: »

How does nobody understand that the dynamic involved with a charging network on an isolated island is utterly different to that of a continental country?

Just use the UK for comparison then, maybe even Cyprus

Not sure fully get your comment though. Many people here have said that private operators won't build hubs because we are a small island and a majority will have home charging. * If this usage pattern is the dynamic you refer to above.

Edit. Private operators means a for profit venture from start to finish. Loss leaders like Ionity and Superchargers excluded.

the_amazing_raisin

Busman Paddy Lasty wrote: »

Just use the UK for comparison then, maybe even Cyprus

Not sure fully get your comment though. Many people here have said that private operators won't build hubs because we are a small island and a majority will have home charging. * If this usage pattern is the dynamic you refer to above.

Edit. Private operators means a for profit venture from start to finish. Loss leaders like Ionity and Superchargers excluded.

To be honest, I don't think any charging companies are making money outside of Norway and the Netherlands. You'd need a certain number of Evs on the road before it starts paying for itself

That's why you need government subsidies to get it started, I don't think anyone really has a problem with that. I'm just questioning the value for money our government is getting but subsidising a single provider rather than putting charging contracts out to tender for other operators

MJohnston

Busman Paddy Lasty wrote: »

Just use the UK for comparison then, maybe even Cyprus

Not sure fully get your comment though. Many people here have said that private operators won't build hubs because we are a small island and a majority will have home charging. * If this usage pattern is the dynamic you refer to above.

Edit. Private operators means a for profit venture from start to finish. Loss leaders like Ionity and Superchargers excluded.

The problem (sorry for explaining Kramer) is that we’re an island AND a not highly populated one.

The island problem is that we lose the ability to be part of a broader continental road system, which would somewhat negate our small and sparse population, because there would be more traffic passing through the country. Germany might have fewer EVs per capita, but they have open land borders with several other countries that have very high EV adoption. So there’s an incentive for charging networks to build for the cross-border user and private networks will take that into consideration.

Here you can only build for the natives.

That’s also true of the UK, but they have a much higher base population and population density (which is absolutely key for private charging infrastructure investment) - the pop density of the whole UK is nearly four times that of Ireland! England on its own is SIX times more densely populated. Even Cyprus which you mention has nearly twice the population density of Ireland.

These two factors are what hobble us when combined.

Not the ONLY reason we have a weaker charging network than a lot of other EU countries, but I think it’s definitely an important factor.

MJohnston

Also, not to sound political, but a United Ireland would really benefit us in these situations - extra population to add to the potential market AND they have double the south’s population density.

Of course they’ve had their charging network hobbled in their own special Northern Irish way.

Busman Paddy Lasty

^^ I didn't know Cyprus have almost twice our population density!

Busman Paddy Lasty

cruisey1987 wrote: »

To be honest, I don't think any charging companies are making money outside of Norway and the Netherlands. You'd need a certain number of Evs on the road before it starts paying for itself

That's why you need government subsidies to get it started, I don't think anyone really has a problem with that. I'm just questioning the value for money our government is getting but subsidising a single provider rather than putting charging contracts out to tender for other operators

I don't know why hubs and other sites were not put out to tender. I have no issue with subsidies or government spending once things get done. ESB Networks would get business connecting the sites anyway. If hubs etc were already built I wouldn't care that a semi state got paid. We're in limbo now where we're still waiting for basic hubs, so agree about questions re value for money.

Other countries that have unprofitable charging networks, well at least they have them in the first place.

slave1

Real Chicken and Egg scenario

AndyBoBandy

The AC22’s should be competing against the case for installing a home charger....

So does someone want to pay €400-€600 for a home charger install and get the cheapest electricity they can into their car? Or are they willing to pay the premium for using an AC22, and save the upfront cost of having a home charger installed?
The AC22’s should be priced accordingly to give people a genuine option to not go the home charger route.... (whether they simply don’t want one, or can’t have one)

Otherwise I just don’t ever see any scenario where I’d use an AC22 in a Tesco or anywhere else they are dotted. (Maybe, just maybe if I was visiting relatives 150+ km away, for more than a few hours, and there was an AC22 within a 5 minute walk from them, then yes, I’d use it if it meant no need for a motorway stop to queue up at a single CCS unit!!).

Black_Knight

Main Street, Stranorlar, Donegal and the hospital car park in letterkenny have been upgraded to the new evolve smart T AC units.

Neither of which are particularly busy units, but sure the 20 million has to go somewhere. At least it's some more reliability for those in Donegal.

Stealthirl

Busman Paddy Lasty wrote: »

^^ I didn't know Cyprus have almost twice our population density!

The EV demographic in Cyprus is basically 0. Very few options and Dublin has more charger's then the whole country.

liamog

Stealthirl wrote: »

The EV demographic in Cyprus is basically 0. Very few options and Dublin has more charger's then the whole country.

It's 168km from one end to the other, can't see them needing that many chargers to be installed.

[Deleted User]

liamog wrote: »

It's 168km from one end to the other, can't see them needing that many chargers to be installed.

What about those who can't have charge points where they live ?

liamog

Deleted User wrote: »

What about those who can't have charge points where they live ?

I do agree with you, but just as the Irish market is a difficult commercial problem, a location like Cyprus is going to be very problematic without state intervention.

Black_Knight

Lifford got a CCS unit (having previously only had CHAdeMO and 2 x 22kW AC). Should be of some use to those traveling through the north.

ELM327

That's a known black hole. Wonder if our Dr Phil has any comment on if it affects him!

zg3409

I know there probably should be a north of Ireland thread as their ESB ecars (ecarni) seem to be installing nothing and fixing very little with dozens of chargers out for months/years. Many 50kW chargers no longer deliver 50kW, often half. See this report:

https://nievo.org/the-state-of-the-network-esb-meeting-q1-2021/

liamog

zg3409 wrote: »

I know there probably should be a north of Ireland thread as their ESB ecars (ecarni) seem to be installing nothing and fixing very little with dozens of chargers out for months/years. Many 50kW chargers no longer deliver 50kW, often half. See this report:

https://nievo.org/the-state-of-the-network-esb-meeting-q1-2021/

The problem with a two state network, that's state funded, is that when one of the two jurisdictions stops funding you really start to see the difference. As much as people like to complain about eCars in the south, we'd see similar without the money from Climate Action Fund.