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Let's all talk about Lewis?

Joeseph Balls

I'm not a Lewis hater, nor a fan.
I dislike the guy out of the car but this shouldn't cloud our judgement.
How close is he to being one of the greats?
Driving ability, he has to be up there?
I still think Alonso is a better driver or is this becoming a cliche?
His car has been an advantage, with Ferrari now very close, is it time we give him credit?
Is he just a very good driver, with a very good car, or are we witnessing an all time great?

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Charlie-Bravo

I think Hamilton is looking to emulate Senna's contact negotiations when with McLaren, but they lost the Honda engine partnership (in 1992?). Senna wanted to move to Williams-Renault team to be on parity with Prost, but Prost had a clause with Williams preventing that particular move for Senna.

So in negotiations with Ron Dennis, Senna drove on a race by race contract in that year after Honda left. I'm sure Hamilton would like to emulate his hero's endeavours. But I don't think Hamilton really wants to move anywhere else!!

Frank Bullitt

Charlie-Bravo wrote: »

I think Hamilton is looking to emulate Senna's contact negotiations when with McLaren, but they lost the Honda engine partnership (in 1992?). Senna wanted to move to Williams-Renault team to be on parity with Prost, but Prost had a clause with Williams preventing that particular move for Senna.

So in negotiations with Ron Dennis, Senna drove on a race by race contract in that year after Honda left. I'm sure Hamilton would like to emulate his hero's endeavours. But I don't think Hamilton really wants to move anywhere else!!

Can't see Merc entertaining that idea. They also have the best car, so why would he want to do that?

Charlie-Bravo

Merc wouldn't entertain that, I know. But we are talking about Hamilton, so I wouldn't be surprised.

Top Dog

Formula World uploaded a video today revealing some of the rumours about Hamiltons demands;
4 year £200 million
10% team winnings
Some limited production Merc
And more

Apparently Daimler have flat out refused his demands, Toto is undecided and Ineos are willing to pay a good portion of his salary.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_3djTi9a6w

gsi300024v

Those 4-year contracts seem a bit silly. Will hamilton try his hardest over the next 4 years. It's a lot of money to ask but you'd almost know you'll be winning the title again next year. Will Merc be in f1 for the next 4 years. With the electrification of so many cars, it seems to be less relevant as the years go by.
Hamilton has to be admired for staying on the top all those years, moving to Merc at the right time. But then some of that was probably lucked also. He's definitely done well. Always in good cars. Just keeping a focus all those years and fit and able, not sidetracked when I'm sure there are so many offering all sorts of distractions to him.
If you look at top athletes many of them will not be smiley nice cuddly types. Johnson the runner, Jordan, Tyson, Patrasis, Senna, Prost, Vettel, Mansell, them drivers were not the most media-friendly either and it seems with smartphones and the internet it's even harder to give all them eyes that are on you the right impression. Oh and that Spanish bloke who's coming back, they said part of the reasons he's got no drive for a bit is he is so hard to get along within a team.
Champs need to be so focused on winning and screw everything else.
There are exceptions of course. One Irish guy in drifting is always happy when his teammate does well or he likes having the best drivers go up against him. In motogp one of the top riders didn't want another top rider in the team, and he sort of had a point, he said he'd helped develop a championship winning bike over a number of years why should he let someone else come in an take advantage of this. And this was Rossi, very well liked, but so focused.
Hamilton also i believe is looking for a roll with f1 outside of driving in the future. The man seems to like to work, us normal humans would be happy to run off with out 200millions and be happy but then he's got a certain level of life style that isn't cheap to maintain so he'll need that income.

gsi300024v

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That’s what you and I would think. But the reality is that all parties still want the best deal possible. Money and work conditions are about buying food and housing and having a few bob left over to have some fun. But Hamilton already has more money than he could spend so the contract is more about status than the actual amount of money.

What would actually constitute a good deal for Hamilton? 3 years and more money then his last deal? The likely recession and cost cap means he won’t get more than his last deal. So it’s hard to measure what’s a good deal and what isn’t (the money involved is like Disney dollars, it’s just a a token)

I’m certain the deal will come. And like the Brexit deal, it’ll be done at the last minute so both sides know they got the most out of it.

He is likely to want to get an amazing deal that is far beyond what anyone less is getting which might stroke his ego some more and let him stand above the rest contractually as well as on the track.

El_Duderino 09

gsi300024v wrote: »

He is likely to want to get an amazing deal that is far beyond what anyone less is getting which might stroke his ego some more and let him stand above the rest contractually as well as on the track.

Precisely. The number of dollars is only measured relative to other drivers and other world champions. Same with the conditions. He fought tooth and nail over the right to own the car after the season ends so he can put it in his own house rather then it being in the Mercedes museum. It’s only about having the best conditions, not the actual conditions themselves.

Frank Bullitt

Top Dog wrote: »

Formula World uploaded a video today revealing some of the rumours about Hamiltons demands;
4 year £200 million
10% team winnings
Some limited production Merc
And more

Apparently Daimler have flat out refused his demands, Toto is undecided and Ineos are willing to pay a good portion of his salary.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_3djTi9a6w

I'd imagine the bigger hold up is the commitment Merc have to F1 as a works team for that long, along with giving away that amount of winnings.

TCP/IP

They should just put Russell in the car and they will win the championship at a canter with him at the wheel anyway for about 85% less cost of keeping lewis.
Will get an easy drivers and constructors win again no one can touch Merc over the season not until at least 2022 anyway.

Charlie-Bravo

Absolutely - Lewis is not in a position to barter to that extent. Maybe there's some merchandising tie-in and Merc might lose some revenue on that end, but Lewis did not make Mercedes F1 what they are today, the team did (and kudos for their hard work on it albeit yielding a boring championship).

El_Duderino 09

TCP/IP wrote: »

They should just put Russell in the car and they will win the championship at a canter with him at the wheel anyway for about 85% less cost of keeping lewis.
Will get an easy drivers and constructors win again no one can touch Merc over the season not until at least 2022 anyway.

The other factor to consider is Hamilton being in a competing car. In these threads he’s not generally liked so he’s treated as an above average driver and the car wins the championships. But in the real world he’s red carded as the best driver (with only max presumes to be at or near his level).

They can either pay him an extortionate fee to drive for them or he would have to settle for a whole lot less to drive against them. Tricky choice

Frank Bullitt

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The other factor to consider is Hamilton being in a competing car. In these threads he’s not generally liked so he’s treated as an above average driver and the car wins the championships. But in the real world he’s red carded as the best driver (with only max presumes to be at or near his level).

They can either pay him an extortionate fee to drive for them or he would have to settle for a whole lot less to drive against them. Tricky choice

Is that really a choice though? IF he and Merc parted (can't see that) where would be go with those kinds of demands? Maybe Aston but I can't see Stroll getting the boot with his Dad as such a big investor. Ferrari have Leclerc for a few more years and Sainz, RB have Max. Any other team is a massive step back for him, such is the advantage Merc have in this hybrid era.

Sounds like he is pricing himself for this team, and this team alone.

Zaph

I wonder is he looking longer term at when he retires and is holding out for an equity stake in the team? As some have said, a lot of it may simply be about having the best contract. In the status stakes, you're not going to do much better than being a part owner of the team you drive for.

gsi300024v

Good point they wouldn't like to see him go to a rival team with all his knowledge and experience of the best team and share it with a rival, or actually drive against Merc. Often, psychologically speaking, it is hard to separate what we think about a person's character from what they've actually achieved. He's not the first driver to get in a car that is so far ahead of the others, Mclaren and Williams both had great runs too, and people still respect their drivers as greats. Races you can argue there are more races in a year to win, but championships, that's not so different from years gone by before is it? Senna and Prost both had spells in very dominant teams so did Schumi. Vettel had the best car for a period too. The best drivers don't always sit in the best cars. But when they do this happens. Will Vettel's team become a powerhouse?

[Deleted User]

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The other factor to consider is Hamilton being in a competing car. In these threads he’s not generally liked so he’s treated as an above average driver and the car wins the championships. But in the real world he’s red carded as the best driver (with only max presumes to be at or near his level).

They can either pay him an extortionate fee to drive for them or he would have to settle for a whole lot less to drive against them. Tricky choice

Which competing car? There's only one team winning the driver's championship this year. Red Bull won't sign him, Ferrari are done under the current engine formula. If a team does get "lucky" in 2022 some of them already have a driver who can take the best car to a title.
Red Bull - Verstappen
McLaren - Riccardo
Williams - Russell
Alpine - Alonso
I'd even argue that Vettel in the best car and starting from the front row consistently would get it done.

Obviously no harm asking, and it'd be pretty stupid to open a negotiation with the least you're willing to accept but IMO it'd be pretty much corporate negligence on Mercedes' part to give that kind of a deal when they have Russell waiting in the wings.

gsi300024v

Russell is not proven, he's definitely more of a gamble than if Lewis drives next year, will Lewis be winning in 3 and 4 years time, equally that is somewhat of a gamble also.
Does it even need discussing next year if Russell or Lewis is the safer bet?
It's definitely though more exciting if Russell got the seat.

El_Duderino 09

Frank Bullitt wrote: »

Is that really a choice though? IF he and Merc parted (can't see that) where would be go with those kinds of demands? Maybe Aston but I can't see Stroll getting the boot with his Dad as such a big investor. Ferrari have Leclerc for a few more years and Sainz, RB have Max. Any other team is a massive step back for him, such is the advantage Merc have in this hybrid era.

Sounds like he is pricing himself for this team, and this team alone.

He’d have his choice of a few teams. Vettel would probably be easy to buy out as it seems he’s on a tiny fraction of his Ferrari wage as a driver (Aston Martin ambassador role might be more expensive). But Red bull would be delighted with him for 2022. Not sure about the others and what contracts they have. Perez is definitely on a one year deal.

He’d settle for more realistic money at another team.

Vettel told Ferrari he didn’t want a significant pay cut from his $30, so they didn’t bother with negotiations. Then he settles for an 80% Pat cut at Aston Martin. That how it would probably go with Hamilton too.

Frank Bullitt

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

He’d have his choice of a few teams. Vettel would probably be easy to buy out as it seems he’s on a tiny fraction of his Ferrari wage as a driver (Aston Martin ambassador role might be more expensive). But Red bull would be delighted with him for 2022. Not sure about the others and what contracts they have. Perez is definitely on a one year deal.

He’d settle for more realistic money at another team.

Vettel told Ferrari he didn’t want a significant pay cut from his $30, so they didn’t bother with negotiations. Then he settles for an 80% Pat cut at Aston Martin. That how it would probably go with Hamilton too.

Don't see that TBH. RB have Max who is probably the best driver outside of the Merc drive, they have traditionally followed a 1st and 2nd driver format (hence signing Perez) and as for costs, they will be likely be making and supplying their own engine soon, so forking out for Hamilton would be an additional cost. Max brings plenty of PR value with that, sales at Spa went up because of him, same in Austria and now the Dutch GP as well.

I can't see Hamilton settling for anything outside of Merc right now, any team is a big step back for him and the car advantage will evaporate in a blink.

Having said that, I can see him signing a 2 year deal with an option to extend.

gsi300024v

Perze should be a good number two for us, screw the team orders, he'll likely not worry about next year and just try putting it up to Max in an equal car.
Who knows though, would you put it past an F1 team to secretly turn down a car's performance to keep a 1st and 2nd driver more clear cut? It should be fun to see how close Max's team mate can get to him. Two good drivers in Redbull putting Merc under more pressure than just max would be good.
Will Stroll's team keep improving?

Santan

If you were on the board, or let's say you are toto as now he is a partner, what would you choose to do. You know you will have huge pr from sky if you keep Hamilton and all the other pr that goes with him, but for that you are going to have to pay huge money, and any other demands he has. Would you be confident enough to put someone like Russell in the car at a fraction of the cost, and end up have 2 driver's fighting each other, as how much do you really know if bottas is quicker or not. If you go with a new driver and for some crazy reason red bull are closer and you don't win the driver's championship, Mercedes will look worse than dreadful, that it was not the car and team that broke all these records, that it was one man and they let him go. Or do you just suck it up continue as is, strike as good a deal as you can with Hamilton and guaranteed some more championships and destroy the records for possibly all time.
If it was me, I would risk it. If I was head of Mercedes I would want to prove to the world that Mercedes have made the best racing machine and the best racing team the F1 world has ever witnessed, that Mercedes can put a Russell or bottas or who ever into their car and it will win. That would be my take on it, huge amount for Mercedes to gain over the next 20 years if it paid off for them, unless there is something I don't see that can be pointed out.

El_Duderino 09

gsi300024v wrote: »

Perze should be a good number two for us, screw the team orders, he'll likely not worry about next year and just try putting it up to Max in an equal car.
Who knows though, would you put it past an F1 team to secretly turn down a car's performance to keep a 1st and 2nd driver more clear cut? It should be fun to see how close Max's team mate can get to him. Two good drivers in Redbull putting Merc under more pressure than just max would be good.
Will Stroll's team keep improving?

Absolutely not. That’s the kind of thing that’s only mentioned when people want to make an excuse for a driver doing poorly. People said it about Vettel last year because he did so poorly but a team wouldn’t do it and certainly not on purpose.

gsi300024v

Teams have asked drivers to fake crashes.
I doubt Redbull would do it, I'd say Max would just get faster if anything.
While 200millions sounds a lot, what is Merc's yearly budget, Bottas is not an expensive driver is he?
And they are sort of guaranteed another championship with lewis, How much does that bring in from F1 peeps in extra winnings money compared to 2nd place. And is value for money important to them or more the certain title in record books for all time. Not saying it can't be beaten. It's interesting Merc have been let win so many, Bernie would sometimes throw in a big rule change to shake it up, and reset people.
I wonder what budget caps would be like if all teams had to have the same budget.

Top Dog

Santan wrote: »

If you were on the board, or let's say you are toto as now he is a partner, what would you choose to do. You know you will have huge pr from sky if you keep Hamilton and all the other pr that goes with him, but for that you are going to have to pay huge money, and any other demands he has. Would you be confident enough to put someone like Russell in the car at a fraction of the cost, and end up have 2 driver's fighting each other, as how much do you really know if bottas is quicker or not. If you go with a new driver and for some crazy reason red bull are closer and you don't win the driver's championship, Mercedes will look worse than dreadful, that it was not the car and team that broke all these records, that it was one man and they let him go. Or do you just suck it up continue as is, strike as good a deal as you can with Hamilton and guaranteed some more championships and destroy the records for possibly all time.
If it was me, I would risk it. If I was head of Mercedes I would want to prove to the world that Mercedes have made the best racing machine and the best racing team the F1 world has ever witnessed, that Mercedes can put a Russell or bottas or who ever into their car and it will win. That would be my take on it, huge amount for Mercedes to gain over the next 20 years if it paid off for them, unless there is something I don't see that can be pointed out.

I'll put it another way - do I think Lewis, and all he brings with him, is worth £50 million a year plus extras? I'd have to say no. No other team will pay him that so let him go.

gsi300024v

How much of Merc's budget is classed as advertising so goes as expenses
and comes off their tax bill.
Be interesting to see, say every 1 euro they spend 60 cent comes of their tax bill. Any accountants in the house?

El_Duderino 09

AMKC wrote: »

I know there is a thread somewhere on Hamilton but can't be arsed to go look now so if a moderator wants to move this they are welcome too,

Hamiltons love life seems to be none exist since Nicole Scherzinger. So who do you think would be a good match for him.

Here is two options I think would be good,

1) Naomi Osaka: but maybe she might be s bit young

2) Katie Taylor: but had on Irish mammy on FB say no just no but no idea why.

So who would make a good pairing with him?

I often thought he wasn't " the marrying type" - but that euphemism doesn't work since the gay marriage referendum. I would have wondered the same about Katie Taylor so what do I know?

With Lewis, I'd say he loves himself enough to be in a perfectly fulfilling relationship, all on his own.

flazio

I always suspected his personal trainer you see hovering around him all the time but she's actually happily married elsewhere so no, no special treatment there. I've enough reasons to like his driving but hate his personality without looking for more.

Gaoth Laidir

If you ask me he's probably not only interested in the ladies. Just has a way about him.

recyclebin

This thread has reached a new low!

Kevski

recyclebin wrote: »

This thread has reached a new low!

Pathetic doesn’t even come close to describing the content of the last few posts.

El_Duderino 09

Kevski wrote: »

Pathetic doesn’t even come close to describing the content of the last few posts.

Gay isn't an insult anymore, it's 2021. People speculate about Hamilton and his character and identity and personality, all the time.

How's it fine to say you think he's a nob, but pathetic to speculate on his serial orientation?