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Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

[Deleted User]

Is there another way of looking at it?
It’s still very, very divided, and actually seems to be getting more polarized over the last five years. It’s economy is woeful, very heavily dependent on the public sector.
Unionists are making plans to celebrate its centenary, but there seems to be very little to be happy with, certainly far less than the Republic or the rest of the UK.
No point in arguing about a border poll on this thread, but is there any possible way of looking at NI as a social, political and economic failure?

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jm08

mfceiling wrote: »

Well according to my mate who lives in forkhill...the free dental care, free health care, free education for his daughter, low tax rate on his car, cheap groceries, no water bills, low alcohol prices, low medicine costs and a range of government subsidies towards his living expenses he seems happy enough!!

None of those things are free - they are paid for. Aside from that, benefits for the unemployed, pensions are about twice what they are in the UK. Does your friend no know that his daughter would have free education in the ROI and as far as I know, much cheaper university fees if she goes there?

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

I agree with most of what you say apart from the last bit i.e. your assumption that Northern Ireland would grow closer to the 26 counties as an ongoing process over the years after any hypothetical united Ireland. This is not impossible but it would buck the trend. I can think of dozens and dozens of regions that have separated and drawn further apart over the last few decades, but I am at a loss to think of any other than Germany who have actually joined and grown closer together - and of course they are very different as they were held apart against the wishes of the vast majority of both parts of Germany. Northern Ireland fits better with all those countries that were separating

The utter self-delusion in your posts is bewildering.

This is Ireland.

FlXEeLZ_Jd_-sL4SJu-d7kSVkDCJ8AAGyHZMKU7zUfW2WAMQ92rZd1_jzX9tcCKzd_9jLWJOKj8BcKiPs_M5vikDDedeK11Ps3fdhyu4JRjc

FlXEeLZ_Jd_-sL4SJu-d7kSVkDCJ8AAGyHZMKU7zUfW2WAMQ92rZd1_jzX9tcCKzd_9jLWJOKj8BcKiPs_M5vikDDedeK11Ps3fdhyu4JRjc

Here is how people identify in the northeast of Ireland.

Independence? That is out.

NI remaining intact in a United Ireland? That is out.

NI Brexiting with Britain? That is out.

Growing up time for Unionists.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I inferred from what you were saying that you want a garuntee of a devolved arrangement.

Is this not the case?

Well you inferred wrong.
A guarantee like that would be impossible because that would require a negotiation pre any poll and that won’t happen. Negotiating a best possible scenario would be a rediculous own goal for unionists. It would be much more advantageous to unionists for people like you to set the agenda ie the worst possible scenario.

Should the hypothetical United ireland ever happen, don’t you be worrying about the needs of the 1 million unionists. We will be well able to look after ourselves and devolution for ni would be an absolute certainty. Any other route would be dire

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You ask or propose this (non-)solution every few weeks and then run away when it's laughed out of the place.

An independent NI isn't an option on the table at present and almost NO-ONE has any interest in having one.

Having said that, if there was ever a United ireland the a very strong ni independence movement will rise the next day

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Whats so great about the Union? Sell it to us. Whats in it for someone from South Armagh?

Blackmarket fortunes, big houses and laundered diesel!

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Well you inferred wrong.
A guarantee like that would be impossible because that would require a negotiation pre any poll and that won’t happen. Negotiating a best possible scenario would be a rediculous own goal for unionists. It would be much more advantageous to unionists for people like you to set the agenda ie the worst possible scenario.

Should the hypothetical United ireland ever happen, don’t you be worrying about the needs of the 1 million unionists. We will be well able to look after ourselves and devolution for ni would be an absolute certainty. Any other route would be dire

Does not compute sadly with actual history. Unless Unionism has a Paulian conversion everything they have done since repudiating Sunningdale has been an absolute ****show of political mismanagement tbh, up to and including Brexit.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Having said that, if there was ever a United ireland the a very strong ni independence movement will rise the next day

Jamie Bryson has the upstairs room in the Queen's Arms booked has he? FREEDOM!!

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Having said that, if there was ever a United ireland the a very strong ni independence movement will rise the next day

Where would you want your independent state, out of interest? Can you show me on the map?

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Having said that, if there was ever a United ireland the a very strong ni independence movement will rise the next day

So it's not a want for Union with Britain it's a dislike of 'themmuns'. Pathetic.

FrancieBrady

You'd nearly feel sorry for Arlene and the roasting she is getting at the minute.

https://twitter.com/DUPleader/status/1349390756327411714

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Well you inferred wrong.
A guarantee like that would be impossible because that would require a negotiation pre any poll and that won’t happen. Negotiating a best possible scenario would be a rediculous own goal for unionists. It would be much more advantageous to unionists for people like you to set the agenda ie the worst possible scenario.

Should the hypothetical United ireland ever happen, don’t you be worrying about the needs of the 1 million unionists. We will be well able to look after ourselves and devolution for ni would be an absolute certainty. Any other route would be dire

How would you envisage devolution working in a UI? Such as would it be the Ulster counties, the present NI, or just majority unionist counties? Would it be powersharing like the present Stormont Assembly? Would unionists participate in the Dail or be absentee TDs like Sinn Fein are now in Westminister? What sort of devolved powers would you want?

RobMc59

jm08 wrote: »

Whats so great about the Union? Sell it to us. Whats in it for someone from South Armagh?

Forgive me if I'm wrong jm but isn't South Armagh known as bandit country?(I'm not trying to be facetious,my great grandfather was from the Crossmaglen area)which could make you think there are a higher proportion of people who generally don't like being part of the UK around there.
I agree that English and Irish people do tend to get on with each other quite well. A couple of my wife's family are staunch republicans with little love for the old UK but we get along very well .Scottish people can have chips on their shoulders and the Welsh can be...strange.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Where would you want your independent state, out of interest? Can you show me on the map?

Where did I say I wanted an independent state. Show me the post fantasy man

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

So it's not a want for Union with Britain it's a dislike of 'themmuns'. Pathetic.

Is this not why you want the brits out?

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

How would you envisage devolution working in a UI? Such as would it be the Ulster counties, the present NI, or just majority unionist counties? Would it be powersharing like the present Stormont Assembly? Would unionists participate in the Dail or be absentee TDs like Sinn Fein are now in Westminister? What sort of devolved powers would you want?

I haven’t gave it any thought as I think it’s hypothetical.
How would you like to see power decentralised in your fantasy Ireland or are you for all the power in Dublin?

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Where did I say I wanted an independent state. Show me the post fantasy man

Originally Posted downcow
if there was ever a United ireland the a very strong ni independence movement will rise the next day

What would the very strong NI independence movement want?

Beltby

downcow wrote: »

Is this not why you want the brits out?

I would like to see British rule out, not British people. The people are welcome. I'm sure many share my view.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

What would the very strong NI independence movement want?

Where did I say I wanted it? I am simply stating a fact.
Just making things up again tom

downcow

Beltby wrote: »

I would like to see British rule out, not British people. The people are welcome. I'm sure many share my view.

I would like to see no R Irish rule in ni. Irish people are welcome I just don’t want them running the place.
So seems we have a lot in common no matter how you paint me

Beltby

downcow wrote: »

I would like to see no R Irish rule in ni Irish people are welcome I just don’t want them running the place.
So seems we have a lot in common no matter how you paint me

I do realise that's your view as a unionist. However in the event of a UI, you wouldn't have a choice. As for a devolved administration, I doubt it. We are an island of 6 or 7 million people. There's more people in Birmingham. We don't need to break the country in regions when it comes to governance.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I would like to see no R Irish rule in ni. Irish people are welcome I just don’t want them running the place.
So seems we have a lot in common no matter how you paint me

The ROI won't be ruling in ni, downcow. The Irish people will determine their own future as a unified island come a successful border poll.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Where did I say I wanted it? I am simply stating a fact.
Just making things up again tom

You're being a tricky customer now.

What would you guess an NI Independence movement would seek?

downcow

Beltby wrote: »

I do realise that's your view as a unionist. However in the event of a UI, you wouldn't have a choice. As for a devolved administration, I doubt it. We are an island of 6 or 7 million people. There's more people in Birmingham. We don't need to break the country in regions when it comes to governance.

I do realise that’s your viewpoint as a republican. However I don’t agree

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The ROI won't be ruling in ni, downcow. The Irish people will determine their own future as a unified island come a successful border poll.

Well at least you have wised up from your position earlier today where you were suggesting the people would have no options to diverge from a united centralised Ireland. That’s progress

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I do realise that’s your viewpoint as a republican. However I don’t agree

So how would devolution work for those who want to be in a UI? How do you sell it as any thing other than 'more partition'?

Genuine question.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

You're being a tricky customer now.

What would you guess an NI Independence movement would seek?

I am not being tricky. I point out a reality and you claim it is a want of mine.
If I said the Ira will intensify their smuggling after brexit, would you say ‘why do you want the ira to smuggle ’.

Either show us the post where I said I wanted an independent ni or just do the right thing and say you were misquoting me

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So how would devolution work for those who want to be in a UI? How do you sell it as any thing other than 'more partition'?

Genuine question.

Well maybe you would answer the question as to whether you oppose decentralisation of power from Dublin?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Well maybe you would answer the question as to whether you oppose decentralisation of power from Dublin?

I oppose devolution for NI.

Can you tell us how you envisage it could work? What do you say to the majority in NI who voted for a UI when they find themselves still partitioned?

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

I am not being tricky.

You are being tricky. What, in your view, would a NI independence movement be seeking?

downcow

Quote: downcow
Well maybe you would answer the question as to whether you oppose decentralisation of power from Dublin?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I oppose devolution for NI.

Can you tell us how you envisage it could work? What do you say to the majority in NI who voted for a UI when they find themselves still partitioned?

try answering the question you were asked rather than the one you would like to be asked