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Can meat producers make vegan food?

Ash.J.Williams

greetings vegans.

are vegan products made by meat processing plants as a way of diversifying actually vegan? Even if there is no cross contamination and made separately?
can you mass kill animals and produce vegan food under the same name?

i think the answer is no, what do you think?

Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."

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NcdJd

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

No one is posting about evil farmers. Farmers come and start posting on every vegan thread.

That was not directed at you personally Thelonious, it's just the vibe I get constantly when reading articles in the mainstream media and social media.

Mimon

Would vegans generally eat organic also? It obviously is a lot less harmful to the environment and biodiversity so would make sense.

yellowlabrador

In the m id 80's, I went on a group camping trip. We had decided on a vegetarian diet to accommodate everyone. 2 were vegan, 14 in the main group. The vegans took half the pots and pans because they were afraid on contamination of their food from dairy products and eggs. Even washing a pan was not acceptable to them. It was a stressful trip and there were a lot of rows. I'd now avoid trips with vegans.

Probes

NcdJd wrote: »

Sorry but that is incorrect. Apart from organically produced vegetables, vegetables production has one of the highest footprints in terms of use of pesticides and fungicides. Also factor in soil degradation due to ploughing and cultivation, irrigation and in a lot of cases crop protection mesh. All agriculture is damaging to the environment, but we have to produce food. The claims made by vegans that a plant based diet is any better for the planet to me is just misinformation. Veganism to me is about stopping the farming of animals full stop. Everything else around it, such as being more friendly to biodiversity and the environment is just spin.

Edit, thats my view, not trying to upset anyone by the way. I was involved in commercial vegetable farming.

Come on now, a vegan diet is less problematic in terms of environmental consequences, this is a given. And as you rightly say by eating organic you can negate much of your own argument.

My point stands, "do what you can". Many people I speak with say they are having a couple of days a week meat free which I think is great. I honestly believe that in 50 years time people will look back and think "Wow, I can't believe they all ate meat!".

Ash.J.Williams

Mimon wrote: »

Why are you referring to yourself as the OP? Wrong login:D?

Yourself as the OP said only vegans to reply. Good way to rub people up the wrong way on an open forum.

I am guilty of wanting to know what vegans thought of vegan products made by meat factories

Funsterdelux

yellowlabrador wrote: »

In the m id 80's, I went on a group camping trip. We had decided on a vegetarian diet to accommodate everyone. 2 were vegan, 14 in the main group. The vegans took half the pots and pans because they were afraid on contamination of their food from dairy products and eggs. Even washing a pan was not acceptable to them. It was a stressful trip and there were a lot of rows. I'd now avoid trips with vegans.

Perhaps they had a dairy allergy?

On the main topic.

Giving the denny sausages as an example, a tasty one at that. Are they marketed as vegan or just meatless?

Denny meatfree range

No word of being vegan. Which would be a good place to start.

Thelonious Monk

Mimon wrote: »

Would vegans generally eat organic also? It obviously is a lot less harmful to the environment and biodiversity so would make sense.

Not sure on this, intensive veg farming producing the most yield may have less affect on biodiversity than organic.
I remember seeing a thing on Horizon on BBC and they came to the conclusion that chicken from battery hens does the least damage to the environment, when it comes to meat, as horrific as the industry is.

We could probably all eat only organic meat if we ate it only once or twice a week.

Ash.J.Williams

Mimon wrote: »

Why are you referring to yourself as the OP? Wrong login:D?

Yourself as the OP said only vegans to reply. Good way to rub people up the wrong way on an open forum.

What?

Probes

yellowlabrador wrote: »

In the m id 80's, I went on a group camping trip. We had decided on a vegetarian diet to accommodate everyone. 2 were vegan, 14 in the main group. The vegans took half the pots and pans because they were afraid on contamination of their food from dairy products and eggs. Even washing a pan was not acceptable to them. It was a stressful trip and there were a lot of rows. I'd now avoid trips with vegans.

2 vegans are not representative of all vegans!

Ash.J.Williams

yellowlabrador wrote: »

In the m id 80's, I went on a group camping trip. We had decided on a vegetarian diet to accommodate everyone. 2 were vegan, 14 in the main group. The vegans took half the pots and pans because they were afraid on contamination of their food from dairy products and eggs. Even washing a pan was not acceptable to them. It was a stressful trip and there were a lot of rows. I'd now avoid trips with vegans.

This is getting close to answering the question, I’m sure at the very least vegans would expect no cross contamination in the factory, or even a separate factory, but I’d still like to hear from vegans on vegan products made by meat producers ?

yellowlabrador

Probes wrote: »

2 vegans are not representative of all vegans!

Veganism was hard work then. I remember them being very underweight and very pale. They were just miserable and very entrenched in their views. It put me off people with extreme views. It had nothing to do with food intolerances, but everything to do with thought intolerances.

Zookey123

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

This is getting close to answering the question, I’m sure at the very least vegans would expect no cross contamination in the factory, or even a separate factory, but I’d still like to hear from vegans on vegan products made by meat producers ?

As stated before not all vegans have the same thought process. There is no vegan bible that every vegan reads to form an opinion on topics such as these. You will get a varied response. I personally think anything that makes a vegan diet easier to manage is a good thing in the long run. I do believe the majority hold this view but can't speak on behalf of all vegans.

Probes

yellowlabrador wrote: »

Veganism was hard work then. I remember them being very underweight and very pale. They were just miserable and very entrenched in their views. It put me off people with extreme views. It had nothing to do with food intolerances, but everything to do with thought intolerances.

But you could have just described all Scottish people.

NcdJd

Probes wrote: »

Come on now, a vegan diet is less problematic in terms of environmental consequences, this is a given.

It's not as simple as that Probes. Both types of production done intensively are just as bad as the other. Anyway I've said my piece so I'll leave it at that. My advice is to try and source local produce, whether its meat, fruit or vegetables and you will be making a big difference. Also try and do something practical to improve biodiversity in your local community.

El Tarangu

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

This is getting close to answering the question, I’m sure at the very least vegans would expect no cross contamination in the factory, or even a separate factory, but I’d still like to hear from vegans on vegan products made by meat producers ?

Why do you think this? This logic would mean that vegans could not eat in any but a tiny number of restaurants, or even have coffee in a friend's house (if the friend had meat in the fridge, or even chocolate in the press).

Feisar

El Tarangu wrote: »

Why do you think this? This logic would mean that vegans could not eat in any but a tiny number of restaurants, or even have coffee in a friend's house (if the friend had meat in the fridge, or even chocolate in the press).

Is fear of cross use a thing?

eviltwin

I eat the Denny sausages and mince, the elmlea cream, vegan mayo etc. All made by producers who make non vegan versions of the same thing. It makes sense that they expand their customer base - if it wasn’t commercially viable they wouldn’t do it. I hope that if they see a lot of sales it will encourage them to expand their ranges - Hellman’s have done so recently with flavoured vegan mayonnaise. Choice is good. Not everyone who buys meat or dairy free is vegan.

Ash.J.Williams

El Tarangu wrote: »

Why do you think this? This logic would mean that vegans could not eat in any but a tiny number of restaurants, or even have coffee in a friend's house (if the friend had meat in the fridge, or even chocolate in the press).

My question was referring to companies selling vegan friendly food and mass slaughtering animals, but the discussion has opened up to eating in the same county as a chap who once stood on a wasp etc

Probes

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

My question was referring to companies selling vegan friendly food and mass slaughtering animals, but the discussion has opened up to eating in the same county as a chap who once stood on a wasp etc

Yeah but the fundamental point is, where do you draw the line? It's personal choice where. You can draw it as crudely as you want if the desire is to determine that no-one is truly vegan.

Ash.J.Williams

Probes wrote: »

Yeah but the fundamental point is, where do you draw the line? It's personal choice where. You can draw it as crudely as you want if the desire is to determine that no-one is truly vegan.

So far the line is whatever works best for the individual

Probes

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

So far the line is whatever works best for the individual

Sounds about right to me.

Can I ask why you're concerned about this? It's just a label, a name. I never think of myself as vegan or vegetarian or anything, I only mention it in certain situations for the benefit of others or for quick explanations. I could go down a long road of explaining my preferences and ideals otherwise. The point is that it's all personal choice.

Ash.J.Williams

Probes wrote: »

Sounds about right to me.

Can I ask why you're concerned about this? It's just a label, a name. I never think of myself as vegan or vegetarian or anything, I only mention it in certain situations for the benefit of others or for quick explanations. I could go down a long road of explaining my preferences and ideals otherwise. The point is that it's all personal choice.

i saw a comment elsewhere about how nice a (known meat brand ) vegan black pudding was, and as someone who spent youth in meat factories i simply wondered can they be vegan from a ethical viewpoint.

weisses

There would be a cohort of vegans who would oppose to lining the pockets of companies who are slaughtering animals and producing vegan alternatives at the same time. And why not.. plenty of options re vegan food

Tar.Aldarion

It is a good thing, you have to have A) A Goal

A path to get there.
In this case it is that a company is completely vegan. The path there is by them first creating one vegan product, seeing demand, and creating more. This has a knock on affect of making things more easily available to people and creating more vegans, and so the process repeats itself. Not to mention companies like B&J, Denny have a lot of experience, scale, brand recognition, influence, money. They are flinging money at veganism, meat companies, dairy companies. They also only have a certain amount of shelf space in shops, some of their other product is being replaced with the vegan version.

There are a lot more people going vegan now, a lot of it is due to these products, it being easy, convenience. not too long ago a nearly 100 year old massive dairy company went completely vegan, this is how these things happen, for most companies it is more incremental.

Nekarsulm

One problem I see is that the vegan products available in multinational chains is produced by multinational companies, and usually very highly processed.
While there is undoubtedly the benefits of adhering to your principals, it may not be very healthy, or sustainable.
So much of the fruit and veg. sold here have horrendous air miles attached and sometimes very questionable effects on the area its grown in.

I worked in a small local veg. distribution business, and was amazed at the sources of stuff.
Onions from New Zealand, Holland and Spain.
Apples from New Zealand, Chile, Argentina, South Africa, France and Spain.
Mange Tout and mini sweet corn air lifted in from Central Africa twice a week.
Broccoli was closer, usually eastern counties of the UK.
Cabbage and Carrots from Dublin.
There is an incredible need for more locally grown stuff, and of course for the supermarkets and consumers to move towards more seasonal produce.
What is the view about consuming fruit and veg from local farmers in the future, very many of which will also be livestock producers?
Is this acceptable to vegans, or tainted by association?

PS, some of the nicest veg I've had lately came from a local farmers yard, he got a lorry load tipped of mixed fruit and veg, bought cheaply to process through a mixer wagon to feed to beef cattle....

Unearthly

Nekarsulm wrote: »

One problem I see is that the vegan products available in multinational chains is produced by multinational companies, and usually very highly processed.
While there is undoubtedly the benefits of adhering to your principals, it may not be very healthy, or sustainable.
So much of the fruit and veg. sold here have horrendous air miles attached and sometimes very questionable effects on the area its grown in.

I worked in a small local veg. distribution business, and was amazed at the sources of stuff.
Onions from New Zealand, Holland and Spain.
Apples from New Zealand, Chile, Argentina, South Africa, France and Spain.
Mange Tout and mini sweet corn air lifted in from Central Africa twice a week.
Broccoli was closer, usually eastern counties of the UK.
Cabbage and Carrots from Dublin.
There is an incredible need for more locally grown stuff, and of course for the supermarkets and consumers to move towards more seasonal produce.
What is the view about consuming fruit and veg from local farmers in the future, very many of which will also be livestock producers?
Is this acceptable to vegans, or tainted by association?

PS, some of the nicest veg I've had lately came from a local farmers yard, he got a lorry load tipped of mixed fruit and veg, bought cheaply to process through a mixer wagon to feed to beef cattle....

If you were magically able to produce all my plant food I'd happily hand over my money to you.

Time to get working Nekarsulm

Thelonious Monk

Nekarsulm wrote: »

I worked in a small local veg. distribution business, and was amazed at the sources of stuff.
Onions from New Zealand, Holland and Spain.
Apples from New Zealand, Chile, Argentina, South Africa, France and Spain.
Mange Tout and mini sweet corn air lifted in from Central Africa twice a week.
Broccoli was closer, usually eastern counties of the UK.
Cabbage and Carrots from Dublin.

I always check where my fresh veg comes from, never seen anything from NZ.
I don't mind buying from Spain and Holland, they're part of the EU and if we want peppers and tomatoes etc year round we need to import from these countries.
99% of the imported fruit and veg is eaten by meat eaters anyway.
Most of the fruit and veg in Ireland is grown in Dublin, so that's handy, I live just down the road from Fingal.

I do find it a bit silly when the boards farmers go on about this, given pretty much all of their beef and dairy is produced for export and goes all over the world.

Nekarsulm

Unearthly wrote: »

If you were magically able to produce all my plant food I'd happily hand over my money to you.

Time to get working Nekarsulm

Magic would be needed, I'm afraid...
Heavy Cavan land, boulder clay and marl are not conductive for either fruit nor veg....
Sure, you'll grow enough for your own house, but if you actually cost the time and effort involved you'd be ten times better off with a part time job and buy in Lidl..
Perhaps in retirement (no interest in Golf

)

Nekarsulm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I always check where my fresh veg comes from, never seen anything from NZ.
I don't mind buying from Spain and Holland, they're part of the EU and if we want peppers and tomatoes etc year round we need to import from these countries.
Most of the fruit and veg in Ireland is grown in Dublin, so that's handy, I live just down the road from Fingal.

I do find it a bit silly when the boards farmers go on about this, given pretty much alll of their beef and dairy is produced for export and goes all over the world.

Yep, most from Co. Dublin due to slightly better climate and some superb soils. ( also up around Comber and the 'Ards peninsula).
Large swathes of the rest of the country much better suited to grass production, and the resultant output from this gets exported.

PS, watch out for NZ apples , usually from Taylor's, a huge fruit growing concern in NZ. Pink Ladys, Braeburn, Gala and sometimes NZ Queens are the main varieties.
Hardly worth mentioning Kiwi fruits, or the large amount of grapes ( in processed form!).

Thelonious Monk

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Yep, most from Co. Dublin due to slightly better climate and some superb soils. ( also up around Comber and the 'Ards peninsula).
Large swathes of the rest of the country much better suited to grass production, and the resultant output from this gets exported.

PS, watch out for NZ apples , usually from Taylor's, a huge fruit growing concern in NZ. Pink Ladys, Braeburn, Gala and sometimes NZ Queens are the main varieties.
Hardly worth mentioning Kiwi fruits, or the large amount of grapes ( in processed form!).

Surely Louth, Kildare, Wexford can't be that different soil/climate wise?