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Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

[Deleted User]

Is there another way of looking at it?
It’s still very, very divided, and actually seems to be getting more polarized over the last five years. It’s economy is woeful, very heavily dependent on the public sector.
Unionists are making plans to celebrate its centenary, but there seems to be very little to be happy with, certainly far less than the Republic or the rest of the UK.
No point in arguing about a border poll on this thread, but is there any possible way of looking at NI as a social, political and economic failure?

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Junkyard Tom

jh79 wrote: »

That's exactly what I'm asking, which sections of the report are extrapolated from the subvention/transfer rather than figures such employment levels in NI versus other regions of the EU?

It's all trivial. We've been at this for hundreds of years and you puke up two opinion pieces on possible problems and think you can derail unification?

You're really not getting this, are you?

[Deleted User]

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It's all trivial. We've been at this for hundreds of years and you puke up two opinion pieces on possible problems and think you can derail unification?

You're really not getting this, are you?

It'll be 100 years more if Republicans like yourself keeping burying your heads in the sand instead of looking for solutions.

downcow

droidman123 wrote: »

This is the most disingenuous post i have read on this thread

I actually think this one is.

downcow

I am just now watching bbc news and there is an article on about the mother and baby homes crisis in Roi. Something like one in seven kids ended up dead.

My mind went to the arrogance of this thread title and some of the posters on it. For somebody living in a state with the many horrific closets that Roi has over last 99 years - to question if your neighbouring state has been a failure over the same 99years is just sheer arrogance and deflection. Quite simply unbelievable.

Ni has had huge challenges and problems over last 99 years but it would be rediculous if the focus of our interests were, considering has our neighbouring country been a failure.

ELM327

downcow wrote: »

I am just now watching bbc news and there is an article on about the mother and baby homes crisis in Roi. Something like one in seven kids ended up dead.

My mind went to the arrogance of this thread title and some of the posters on it. For somebody living in a state with the many horrific closets that Roi has over last 99 years - to question if your neighbouring state has been a failure over the same 99years is just sheer arrogance and deflection. Quite simply unbelievable.

Ni has had huge challenges and problems over last 99 years but it would be rediculous if the focus of our interests were, considering has our neighbouring country been a failure.

I don't think NI can even refer to North Korea as a failure, relatively speaking. Let alone the ROI.

Those in glass houses cannot throw stones, and NI as a region is a fine palace of delicate crystal

grayzer75

downcow wrote: »

I am just now watching bbc news and there is an article on about the mother and baby homes crisis in Roi. Something like one in seven kids ended up dead.

My mind went to the arrogance of this thread title and some of the posters on it. For somebody living in a state with the many horrific closets that Roi has over last 99 years - to question if your neighbouring state has been a failure over the same 99years is just sheer arrogance and deflection. Quite simply unbelievable.

Ni has had huge challenges and problems over last 99 years but it would be rediculous if the focus of our interests were, considering has our neighbouring country been a failure.

The two main parties in government are the same parties that governed through the whole thing and should be held accountable.

ELM327

jh79 wrote: »

It'll be 100 years more if Republicans like yourself keeping burying your heads in the sand instead of looking for solutions.

Theres clearly solutions in place already and we're working towards it. The GFA provides the mechanism and we're nearly at the 50% +1 vote which is all that is needed.

ELM327

grayzer75 wrote: »

The two main parties in government are the same parties that governed through the whole thing and should be held accountable.

This is clearly not relevant to the matter at hand.

Posters on the union side up north cannot seriously be criticising another government for "state allowed killings"

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I am just now watching bbc news and there is an article on about the mother and baby homes crisis in Roi. Something like one in seven kids ended up dead.

My mind went to the arrogance of this thread title and some of the posters on it. For somebody living in a state with the many horrific closets that Roi has over last 99 years - to question if your neighbouring state has been a failure over the same 99years is just sheer arrogance and deflection. Quite simply unbelievable.

Ni has had huge challenges and problems over last 99 years but it would be rediculous if the focus of our interests were, considering has our neighbouring country been a failure.

I'd say considerably more babies died in the UK through abortion. Thats how the UK dealt with it.

[Deleted User]

ELM327 wrote: »

Theres clearly solutions in place already and we're working towards it. The GFA provides the mechanism and we're nearly at the 50% +1 vote which is all that is needed.

According to this about 20 years away.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-nireland-poll/poll-shows-northern-ireland-majority-against-united-ireland-idUSKBN20C0WI

jm08

jh79 wrote: »

According to this about 20 years away.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-nireland-poll/poll-shows-northern-ireland-majority-against-united-ireland-idUSKBN20C0WI

How many times has it to be explained to you that people in NI when asked for how they would vote, won't say what they think. They need the secrecy of the ballot box.

Its doubly true when someone with an English accent asks them the question (as happened in that poll - it was an English polling company).

ELM327

jh79 wrote: »

According to this about 20 years away.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-nireland-poll/poll-shows-northern-ireland-majority-against-united-ireland-idUSKBN20C0WI

Did you believe the polls in the Brexit referendum?
Polls are meaningless for such a hotcake issue.

[Deleted User]

jm08 wrote: »

How many times has it to be explained to you that people in NI when asked for how they would vote, won't say what they think. They need the secrecy of the ballot box.

Its doubly true when someone with an English accent asks them the question (as happened in that poll - it was an English polling company).

Maybe that's true for some people but to have a significant effect seems unlikely to me.

What's your excuse for those in the Republic? We've already had Francie's risible "its not a tax it's a contribution" excuse.

Do you think the average PAYE worker thinks the USC is not a tax?

jm08

jh79 wrote: »

Maybe that's true for some people but to have a significant effect seems unlikely to me.

How much is significant? Anyway, from Irish Times.

Looking at opinion polls can provide more confusion than clarity. For instance, in February this year two polls offered widely different results on the constitutional question.
A poll by Liverpool University and Britain’s Economic and Social Research Council found 29 per cent would vote for a united Ireland “tomorrow” while 52 per cent would vote against. Excluding the “don’t knows”, it had 65 per cent favouring the union, 35 per cent for unity.

Brexit

The same month a LucidTalk poll, commissioned by the investigative website The Detail, examined how Brexit was affecting views on Northern Ireland’s constitutional future. It found 46.8 per cent would vote to maintain the union while 45.4 per cent would vote for a united Ireland.
Those figures were flipped around in a survey by pollster Lord Ashcroft, former Conservative Party treasurer, in September last year. If there were a Border poll tomorrow, that poll had 46 per cent saying they would vote for a united Ireland and 45 per cent voting to stay in the union.
When the “don’t knows” were excluded the result was 51 per cent for unity, 49 per cent for the union.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/northern-ireland-polls-can-provide-more-confusion-than-clarity-1.4344768

What's your excuse for those in the Republic? We've already had Francie's risible "its not a tax it's a contribution" excuse.

Do you think the average PAYE worker thinks the USC is not a tax?

Wasn't there an Exit Poll at the last general election which threw up this:

Question: Do you think there should be referendums north and south in the next five years on Irish unity, or not?

A total of 57% said yes; 40% said no; 3% had no response.
The youngest age group polled showed the most support for a border poll:

18 – 24: 75% said yes
25 – 34: 60% said yes
35 – 49: 62% said yes
50 – 64: 54% said yes
65+: 47% said yes

https://www.thejournal.ie/ge2020-border-poll-4999083-Feb2020/

By the way, I support a Border Poll and I will support whatever that referendum decides. I think before the poll we need full information and facts on what it will cost, and not some half baked theories thrown up by yourself and Blanch etc.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

I am just now watching bbc news and there is an article on about the mother and baby homes crisis in Roi. Something like one in seven kids ended up dead.

Everyone in Ireland is appalled and ashamed of this. Meanwhile, every summer, you lot still celebrate the death, destruction, and disenfranchisement, you've wrought on Ireland for centuries. To this very day Unionists still kick-and-scream over the visibility of the native language.

We won't take lectures from Unionists on such issues.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Maybe that's true for some people but to have a significant effect seems unlikely to me.

What's your excuse for those in the Republic? We've already had Francie's risible "its not a tax it's a contribution" excuse.

Do you think the average PAYE worker thinks the USC is not a tax?

The average PAYE wrker has paid for almost everything this state has done. That is what you are up against here. Had those who took the leap to independence been so selfish as you are, we'd be still a part of the UK.

People, or not all of the people, won't frame it in totally economic terms jh79.

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The average PAYE wrker has paid for almost everything this state has done. That is what you are up against here. Had those who took the leap to independence been so selfish as you are, we'd be still a part of the UK.

People, or not all of the people, won't frame it in totally economic terms jh79.

The opposite is a reckless approach where we borrow and end up with a dysfunctional 32 county republic.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

The opposite is a reckless approach where we borrow and end up with a dysfunctional 32 county republic.

:D From where I am sitting partition has a lot to do with why we are still a dysfunctional society.
Like it or not, those cast aside and ignored by the oh so 'functional' members of our society are going to get a say and it isn't going to be all about finances.

Natterjack from Kerry

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Everyone in Ireland is appalled and ashamed of this. Meanwhile, every summer, you lot still celebrate the death, destruction, and disenfranchisement, you've wrought on Ireland for centuries. To this very day Unionists still kick-and-scream over the visibility of the native language.

We won't take lectures from Unionists on such issues.

There is a lot of obsolete thinking in this post. With the issue of any 32 County country now settled, it is the responsibility of all on the island to work together. There is a great opportunity for all. NI is in a terrific position to develop itself, and th South can both help and benefit from this too. The deal also presents a super opportunity for the South. It can benefit from a booming North, and its close contact enables it to piggyback on many of the advantages NI has now gained.

Talk of unification and border polls etc has no role anymore and is only counter productive to what really matters - the peace, prosperity, and every closer links between both jurisdictions, without getting hung up on petty issues like a single 32 county sovereignty.

Such a discussion was valid speculation during the Brexit process when an entirely different outcome was possible. But no longer. Both Irelands can now move on, leaving its disputes of history as for historians only, and work on the betterment together of the island, with its two jurisdictions, as a whole.

ELM327

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

There is a lot of obsolete thinking in this post. With the issue of any 32 County country now settled, it is the responsibility of all on the island to work together. There is a great opportunity for all. NI is in a terrific position to develop itself, and th South can both help and benefit from this too. The deal also presents a super opportunity for the South. It can benefit from a booming North, and its close contact enables it to piggyback on many of the advantages NI has now gained.

Talk of unification and border polls etc has no role anymore and is only counter productive to what really matters - the peace, prosperity, and every closer links between both jurisdictions, without getting hung up on petty issues like a single 32 county sovereignty.

Such a discussion was valid speculation during the Brexit process when an entirely different outcome was possible. But no longer. Both Irelands can now move on, leaving its disputes of history as for historians only, and work on the betterment together of the island, with its two jurisdictions, as a whole.

Risible.
The temporary partition placed by britain will end soon. Now is as good a time as any

Your description of "petty issues like a single 32 county sovereignty." says all we need to know about you mr new poster

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

:D From where I am sitting partition has a lot to do with why we are still a dysfunctional society.
Like it or not, those cast aside and ignored by the oh so 'functional' members of our society are going to get a say and it isn't going to be all about finances.

Whatever opinion you have of the Republic, the cost of unification will at least in the medium term makes things worse. 3bn a year just to harmonize social welfare payments! Imagine what PS pay and pensions would cost.

Junkyard Tom

Partition allowed the worst elements of each society to dominate without much opposition, the RCC in the south and the Catholic/Irish hating Unionists of the north. I'd say Ireland is half a century behind where we should be had partition not been foisted upon us by threat of Unionist/British terrorism.

Junkyard Tom

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

With the issue of any 32 County country now settled...

FrancieBrady

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

There is a lot of obsolete thinking in this post. With the issue of any 32 County country now settled,

Amost as mind numbling shocking to see that written as it was to read downcow gloating about still having all the benefits and rights of the EU.

Reality checks incoming for some.

ELM327

jm08 wrote: »

I'd say considerably more babies died in the UK through abortion. Thats how the UK dealt with it.

Nothing to do with this thread. 0 "babies died" anyway but there's other threads if you want to discuss that.

Natterjack from Kerry

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Yes! There are many indeed for whom the reality of the implications of the Brexit deal long term, are lost. And they will probably never have the insight, or be able to move themselves from decades of a very rigid mindset and dogma. But the important point is that they will never add to their numbers, and as a factor in northern and southern politics, will dwindle in time, to an insignificant fringe.

ELM327

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Amost as mind numbling shocking to see that written as it was to read downcow gloating about still having all the benefits and rights of the EU.

Reality checks incoming for some.

The amount of side steps attempted by some sides is funny. From claiming the "petty" issue is settled, to trying to strawman in everything from the tuam babies to abortion.

The reality is you can only bang the drum so many times before it breaks. And I think in terms of reuinification, the levee was broken, ironically, by a brexit vote driven by English nationalists.

FrancieBrady

ELM327 wrote: »

The amount of side steps attempted by some sides is funny. From claiming the "petty" issue is settled, to trying to strawman in everything from the tuam babies to abortion.

The reality is you can only bang the drum so many times before it breaks. And I think in terms of reuinification, the levee was broken, ironically, by a brexit vote driven by English nationalists.

I was thinking of the practicalities of a border poll actually. Huge conundrum for the Unionist side if one is called. How do they 'bang the drum' of Unionism without driving away those who want to stay in the UK for the time being.

I would suggest if Unionism wants to win a border poll that they find some way of locking up the likes of Sammy Wilson and Gregory Campbell as Simon Harris and Eoghan Murphy were during the last GE campaign here (mind you that did no good for the party concerned but then again, it could've been inordinately worse.

Junkyard Tom

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Huge conundrum

And those in the South who'd step forward as being against a United Ireland would be some laugh too.

ittakestwo

jh79 wrote: »

According to this about 20 years away.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-nireland-poll/poll-shows-northern-ireland-majority-against-united-ireland-idUSKBN20C0WI

The Liverpool poll asks what way people would vote tomorrow

After witnessing a rushed Brexit vote, I would not even vote for a UI tomorrow. A UI is not something that can be rushed into untill all details and implications are known.