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Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

[Deleted User]

Is there another way of looking at it?
It’s still very, very divided, and actually seems to be getting more polarized over the last five years. It’s economy is woeful, very heavily dependent on the public sector.
Unionists are making plans to celebrate its centenary, but there seems to be very little to be happy with, certainly far less than the Republic or the rest of the UK.
No point in arguing about a border poll on this thread, but is there any possible way of looking at NI as a social, political and economic failure?

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BonnieSituation

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Man are you in for some shocks. Here is the exact wording of the 'Protocol' agreed and signed of on by people you would rather trust than your fellow islander/citizens/neighbours:

It is ALSO why thousands of your community have decided to become Irish citizens. an identity they are fully entitled to have because they were born on the island of Ireland.

Point of order, they were always citizens, now they're just asserting it.

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Point of order, they were always citizens, now they're just asserting it.

'Citizen' is a legal construct, so yes, doing the legals on it. They were always Irish and will always be, so long as the island is called Ireland.

BonnieSituation

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Citizen' is a legal construct, so yes, doing the legals on it. They were always Irish and will always be, so long as the island is called Ireland.

Don't be giving themmuns any ideas!

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Don't be giving themmuns any ideas!

Aye...there's a few around here would rather call it the British Isles.

ittakestwo

The GFA means anyone born in NI will be entitled to Irish and British citizenship whether it is part of the UK or a UI.

So in the case of a UI anyone born in the 6 counties of NI before or after a UI will still be able to claim British citizenship.

BonnieSituation

ittakestwo wrote: »

The GFA means anyone born in NI will be entitled to Irish and British citizenship whether it is part of the UK or a UI.

So in the case of a UI anyone born in the 6 counties of NI before or after a UI will still be able to claim British citizenship.

Well, as I've said many times before, we don't know that for fact.

After a UI, the granting of citizenship by the UK government to Irishmen and women is purely within their gift.

I'm sure it will form part of the negotiations of unification. I would wager the situation that existed here until 1949 will apply.

A UI WILL NOT remove British citizenship retrospectively however, just to clear that up for ya.

ittakestwo

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Well, as I've said many times before, we don't know that for fact.

After a UI, the granting of citizenship by the UK government to Irishmen and women is purely within their gift.

I'm sure it will form part of the negotiations of unification. I would wager the situation that existed here until 1949 will apply.

A UI WILL NOT remove British citizenship retrospectively however, just to clear that up for ya.

Was the GFA not signed by both the UK government and Irish. Will they not be bound by the terms of the GFA.

Fionn1952

ittakestwo wrote: »

Was the GFA not signed by both the UK government and Irish. Will they not be bound by the terms of the GFA.

The terms of the GFA don't detail things beyond the time of a successful vote on unification. Should a vote on Unification pass, the GFA would no longer apply.

I would expect the British government would make some sort of offer of citizenship, but nothing in the GFA obliges them to.

FrancieBrady

Fionn1952 wrote: »

The terms of the GFA don't detail things beyond the time of a successful vote on unification. Should a vote on Unification pass, the GFA would no longer apply.

I would expect the British government would make some sort of offer of citizenship, but nothing in the GFA obliges them to.

After a successful vote it will be the UK and Irish government negotiating rights for various affected parties/citizens etc.
The British government then ensures any Unification agreement passes through UK parliament and that ends their commitment to the GFA and presumably the GFA itself.

ittakestwo

Fionn1952 wrote: »

The terms of the GFA don't detail things beyond the time of a successful vote on unification. Should a vote on Unification pass, the GFA would no longer apply.

I would expect the British government would make some sort of offer of citizenship, but nothing in the GFA obliges them to.

According to GFA

Irrespective of Northern Ireland's constitutional status within the United Kingdom, or part of a united Ireland, the right of "the people of Northern Ireland" to "identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both" (as well as their right to hold British or Irish citizenship or both) was recognised. By the words "people of Northern Ireland" the Agreement meant "all persons born in Northern Ireland and having, at the time of their birth, at least one parent who is a British citizen, an Irish citizen or is otherwise entitled to reside in Northern Ireland without any restriction on their period of residence"

What suggests the GFA ends in the case of a UI. The above would suggest the UK will be bound to offer and accept British citizenship to anyone born in the six counties of NI even after a UI

Beltby

I don't see anyone having an issue with that. Concessions would have to be made, and that would be a pretty fair concession to make.

Fionn1952

ittakestwo wrote: »

According to GFA

Irrespective of Northern Ireland's constitutional status within the United Kingdom, or part of a united Ireland, the right of "the people of Northern Ireland" to "identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both" (as well as their right to hold British or Irish citizenship or both) was recognised. By the words "people of Northern Ireland" the Agreement meant "all persons born in Northern Ireland and having, at the time of their birth, at least one parent who is a British citizen, an Irish citizen or is otherwise entitled to reside in Northern Ireland without any restriction on their period of residence"

What suggests the GFA ends in the case of a UI. The above would suggest the UK will be bound to offer and accept British citizenship to anyone born in the six counties of NI even after a UI

The bit where the GFA concerns Northern Ireland, which would no longer exist in the event of unification.

I would expect that the British government will extend an offer of citizenship to anyone born in NI for a significant period of time post unification, but I don't see any legal obligation they have to do so.

downcow

As you guys know I always own up load and clear when I am wrong - which is not often ðŸ˜€ I see from Hansard that UK gov appears to agree with you guys. Another embarrassing one for the dup.

But still get the popcorn as this is Eu saying gfa is sacrosanct and then ignoring it.
I still feel it will be challenged

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

As you guys know I always own up load and clear when I am wrong - which is not often &#55357;&#56832; I see from Hansard that UK gov appears to agree with you guys. Another embarrassing one for the dup.

But still get the popcorn as this is Eu saying gfa is sacrosanct and then ignoring it.
I still feel it will be challenged

On what grounds?

You sound like Sammy 'go to the chipper' Wilson today, whinging because what he too was warned about, came true.

ittakestwo

ittakestwo wrote: »

According to GFA

Irrespective of Northern Ireland's constitutional status within the United Kingdom, or part of a united Ireland, the right of "the people of Northern Ireland" to "identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both" (as well as their right to hold British or Irish citizenship or both) was recognised. By the words "people of Northern Ireland" the Agreement meant "all persons born in Northern Ireland and having, at the time of their birth, at least one parent who is a British citizen, an Irish citizen or is otherwise entitled to reside in Northern Ireland without any restriction on their period of residence"

What suggests the GFA ends in the case of a UI. The above would suggest the UK will be bound to offer and accept British citizenship to anyone born in the six counties of NI even after a UI

Fionn1952 wrote: »

The bit where the GFA concerns Northern Ireland, which would no longer exist in the event of unification.

I would expect that the British government will extend an offer of citizenship to anyone born in NI for a significant period of time post unification, but I don't see any legal obligation they have to do so.

Where does it say the GFA ends if there is a UI? Both Ireland and the UK can pull out of the GFA. But they will be pulling out of an international peace agreement and will probably suffer repercussions.

If the UK dont offer citizenship to people born in NI after a UI, would they not be seen as breaking the GFA.

Fionn1952

ittakestwo wrote: »

Where does it say the GFA ends if there is a UI? Both Ireland and the UK can pull out of the GFA. But they will be pulling out of an international peace agreement and will probably suffer repercussions.

If the UK dont offer citizenship to people born in NI after a UI, would they not be seen as breaking the GFA.

As said in my previous post, the GFA concerns Northern Ireland. In the event of a UI, Northern Ireland no longer exists. How can legislation which concerns a place that no longer exists be upheld?

I'd imagine that previously agreed treaties in place with Yugoslavia aren't still binding for example.

ittakestwo

Fionn1952 wrote: »

As said in my previous post, the GFA concerns Northern Ireland. In the event of a UI, Northern Ireland no longer exists. How can legislation which concerns a place that no longer exists be upheld?

I'd imagine that previously agreed treaties in place with Yugoslavia aren't still binding for example.

"Irrespective of Northern Ireland's constitutional status within the United Kingdom, or part of a united Ireland"

The above sentance from the GFA can only be inferred that NI will exist as an entity even after a UI and that people born there even after a UI have the right to British citizenship.

FrancieBrady

ittakestwo wrote: »

"Irrespective of Northern Ireland's constitutional status within the United Kingdom, or part of a united Ireland"

The above sentance from the GFA can only be inferred that NI will exist as an entity even after a UI and that people born there even after a UI have the right to British citizenship.

That sentence isn't in the GFA.

ittakestwo

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That sentence isn't in the GFA.

From the GFA:

''recognise the birthright of all people of Northan Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British or both as they may do choose and accordingly confirm their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both governments and would not be affected by any future changes to the status of Northan Ireland''

https://www.dfa.ie/our-role-policies/northern-ireland/the-good-friday-agreement-and-today/

FrancieBrady

ittakestwo wrote: »

From the GFA:

''recognise the birthright of all people of Northan Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British or both as they may do choose and according confirm their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both governments and would not be affected by any future changes to the status of Northan Ireland''

https://www.dfa.ie/our-role-policies/northern-ireland/the-good-friday-agreement-and-today/

Which is a long way short of NI surviving as an entity. It's status will change.

They will be allowed to identify as British and hold British citizenship when that happens, is all that says.
Presents no issues whatsoever.

Fionn1952

ittakestwo wrote: »

From the GFA:

''recognise the birthright of all people of Northan Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British or both as they may do choose and according confirm their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both governments and would not be affected by any future changes to the status of Northan Ireland''

https://www.dfa.ie/our-role-policies/northern-ireland/the-good-friday-agreement-and-today/

Yes, that would apply to all people born while Northern Ireland exists. The British government would be bound to not try to revoke Downcow's British citizenship in the event of unification (I.e. his British citizenship would not be affected by any future changes to the status of Northern Ireland)

Should unification occur, Northern Ireland would no longer exist, so an agreement concerning Northern Ireland would no longer be binding one would presume? Future generations born in say my home county of Fermanagh would not be born in Northern Ireland. One would expect the British government to extend the right to British citizenship to at least a few future generations born in those six counties, but that would be down to them, the Irish state would have nothing to do with this.

ittakestwo

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Which is a long way short of NI surviving as an entity. It's status will change.

They will be allowed to identify as British and hold British citizenship when that happens, is all that says.
Presents no issues whatsoever.

It will be an entity in terms of the GFA even after a UI. But it settles the question what happens to people born in NI in case of a UI. If the UK does not offer citizenship to people born in NI even after a UI then they will be reneging on the GFA

FrancieBrady

ittakestwo wrote: »

It will be an entity in terms of the GFA even after a UI. But it settles the question what happens to people born in NI in case of a UI. If the UK does not offer citizenship to people born in NI even after a UI then they will be reneging on the GFA

I doubt the British will agree to a deal in perpetuity. The Unionists will have to negociate as best they can on that one.

NI will no longer have any separate constitutional status though. What that would be is a UIINO (United Ireland In Name Only)

ittakestwo

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I doubt the British will agree to a deal in perpetuity.

It seems they already have tho.

FrancieBrady

ittakestwo wrote: »

It seems they already have tho.

No, they haven't. They have recognised rights (as Fionn says) as long as NI exists.

Think it through...a UI where Unionists have a veto would be unworkable. Citizens of Ireland qualifying for British citizenship into perpetuity??? Seriously? Not a chance I would say. It will be finite in some way.

ittakestwo

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, they haven't. They have recognised rights (as Fionn says) as long as NI exists.

Think it through...a UI where Unionists have a veto would be unworkable. Citizens of Ireland qualifying for British citizenship into perpetuity??? Seriously? Not a chance I would say. It will be finite in some way.

recognise the birthright of all people of Northan Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British or both as they may do choose and accordingly confirm their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both governments and would not be affected by any future changes to the status of Northan Ireland

Guys how can you not infir from the above in bold that people born in what is/was know as NI wont be entitled to British citizenship even after a UI. I think it is clear they will be.

FrancieBrady

ittakestwo wrote: »

recognise the birthright of all people of Northan Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British or both as they may do choose and accordingly confirm their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both governments and would not be affected by any future changes to the status of Northan Ireland

Guys how can you not infir from the above in bold that people born in what is/was know as NI wont be entitled to British citizenship even after a UI. I think it is clear they will be.

'Current citizens' will live their lives out as British citizens if that is what they want and this would not be affected by any future changes to the status of Northan Ireland

Junkyard Tom

I think the best that Unionists could seek from London/Dublin in a UI would be something like a 100 year guarantee on the Common Travel Area with its accompanying rights.

ittakestwo

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Current citizens' will live their lives out as British citizens if that is what they want and this would not be affected by any future changes to the status of Northan Ireland

Is that in the GFA? It seems very much at odds with the text I have quoted which mentions "birthright" and "would not be affected by any future changes to status of Northan Ireland"

FrancieBrady

ittakestwo wrote: »

Is that in the GFA? It seems very much at odds with the text I have quoted which mentions "birthright" and "would not be affected by any future changes to status of Northan Ireland"

The Irish in NI only secured a 'birthright' in 1998'

I.E. it's in the gift of the British to bestow that to NI citizens and there is no onus on them to bestow it if NI no longer exists.