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Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

[Deleted User]

Is there another way of looking at it?
It’s still very, very divided, and actually seems to be getting more polarized over the last five years. It’s economy is woeful, very heavily dependent on the public sector.
Unionists are making plans to celebrate its centenary, but there seems to be very little to be happy with, certainly far less than the Republic or the rest of the UK.
No point in arguing about a border poll on this thread, but is there any possible way of looking at NI as a social, political and economic failure?

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BonnieSituation

jh79 wrote: »

It's a joke! Lighten up.

Har Dee har har

ELM327

jh79 wrote: »

So it's a UK variation on the Full Irish:D?

Ulster fry is not found elsewhere outside of ulster. Take your thatcherite breakfast comparisons elsewhere

:D

(ps I was aware of the difference between farls and soda bread, it was a joke apparently only in our extended family. I assumed it was a similar thing to the old toaster in the press/on display concept)

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I do love a farl. Has me now craving something my brutal news agent doesn't stock. Thanks.

Young fella is away to the shop for flour!!!

[Deleted User]

ELM327 wrote: »

Ulster fry is not found elsewhere outside of ulster. Take your thatcherite breakfast comparisons elsewhere :D

(ps I was aware of the difference between farls and soda bread, it was a joke apparently only in our extended family. I assumed it was a similar thing to the old toaster in the press/on display concept)

If it wasn't for Derry Girls I would of had no idea the toaster in the press was a thing. Still don't understand it.

BonnieSituation

ELM327 wrote: »

Ulster fry is not found elsewhere outside of ulster. Take your thatcherite breakfast comparisons elsewhere :D

(ps I was aware of the difference between farls and soda bread, it was a joke apparently only in our extended family. I assumed it was a similar thing to the old toaster in the press/on display concept)

Having it out on the counter is such a weird experience since I moved in with herself. ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

BonnieSituation

jh79 wrote: »

If it wasn't for Derry Girls I would of had no idea the toaster in the press was a thing. Still don't understand it.

Again this genuinely points to your lack of any standing, for want of a better phrase, when talking about ending partition.

I wasn't joking when I brought up the lack of soda in your diet.

You genuinely see things with such a Partitionist bent that it's as useless trying to discuss things with you as it is with DC.

[Deleted User]

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Again this genuinely points to your lack of any standing, for want of a better phrase, when talking about ending partition.

I wasn't joking when I brought up the lack of soda in your diet.

You genuinely see things with such a Partitionist bent that it's as useless trying to discuss things with you as it is with DC.

Well my vote counts the same as yours in a border poll. As a PAYE worker it'll be my taxes funding it.

Given the opinion polls, every vote is needed.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Well my vote counts the same as yours in a border poll. As a PAYE worker it'll be my taxes funding it.

Given the opinion polls, every vote is needed.

As well as not understanding life here, I don't think you understand that for many many many people it won't come down to money.

A once in a generation chance to end partition will ask questions of everyone's sense of Irishness and I don't think there will be any question about what the answer will be.

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

As well as not understanding life here, I don't think you understand that for many many many people it won't come down to money.

A once in a generation chance to end partition will ask questions of everyone's sense of Irishness and I don't think there will be any question about what the answer will be.

Not gonna endear yourself to those you're hoping to convince with that little englander esque approach.

I don't know how you are so optimistic given the opinion polls.

Someone posted up 2 opinion polls on a UI within 5 years and only 51% and 57% were in favour. "Irishness" doesn't seem to be very strong these days.

And of course the infamous B&A poll with only 30+% support.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Not gonna endear yourself to those you're hoping to convince with that little englander esque approach.

I don't know how you are so optimistic given the opinion polls.

Someone posted up 2 opinion polls on a UI within 5 years and only 51% and 57% were in favour. "Irishness" doesn't seem to be very strong these days.

And of course the infamous B&A poll with only 30+% support.

There are a myriad of opinion polls that show this and that depending what side you are on.

Yes the B&A one is 'infamous'. It asked 'would you like to pay more tax'...a question that would elicit a high no answer where ever it was asked.

I look at practical things...the pride on view during the decade of centenaries for instance.

Do I think the Irish people will reject a chance to put the wrongs of partition to right...NOT a chance in hell of that IMO.

P.S. That is why Unionists will never advocate for a border poll...they know this too. They know, even though they taunt and cajole otherwise, that it is far too close to call in the North and that it would be an overwhelming Yes in the south. They won't voluntarily touch a BP with a barge pole.

BonnieSituation

jh79 wrote: »

Not gonna endear yourself to those you're hoping to convince with that little englander esque approach.

I don't know how you are so optimistic given the opinion polls.

Someone posted up 2 opinion polls on a UI within 5 years and only 51% and 57% were in favour. "Irishness" doesn't seem to be very strong these days.

And of course the infamous B&A poll with only 30+% support.

You're never gonna be swayed though. You have your mind made up and that's that. For every solution we'd come up with you'd move your complaint on to something else.

Like belligerent unionists, you're a lost cause and a complete waste of resources.

Your only role is to vote no in the referendum. That's all.

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There are a myriad of opinion polls that show this and that depending what side you are on.

Yes the B&A one is 'infamous'. It asked 'would you like to pay more tax'...a question that would elicit a high no answer where ever it was asked.

I look at practical things...the pride on view during the decade of centenaries for instance.

Do I think the Irish people will reject a chance to put the wrongs of partition to right...NOT a chance in hell of that IMO.

P.S. That is why Unionists will never advocate for a border poll...they know this too. They know, even though they taunt and cajole otherwise, that it is far too close to call in the North and that it would be an overwhelming Yes in the south. They won't voluntarily touch a BP with a barge pole.

Based on the opinion polls it could poll higher in NI!

I don't really understand your optimism. Why would someone lie about it in the opinion polls? 51 & 57% isn't impressive for a border poll within 5 years.

Its not a tax but a unification contribution isn't gonna fool enough to reverse 30%.

[Deleted User]

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You're never gonna be swayed though. You have your mind made up and that's that. For every solution we'd come up with you'd move your complaint on to something else.

Like belligerent unionists, you're a lost cause and a complete waste of resources.

Your only role is to vote no in the referendum. That's all.

I'll vote for it if the financial side is reasonable.

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You're never gonna be swayed though. You have your mind made up and that's that. For every solution we'd come up with you'd move your complaint on to something else.

Like belligerent unionists, you're a lost cause and a complete waste of resources.

Your only role is to vote no in the referendum. That's all.

It's like the desperate attempt to redefine what a 'majority' is. Completely pathetic not to mention dangerous.

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It's like the desperate attempt to redefine what a 'majority' is. Completely pathetic not to mention dangerous.

Where have I redefined what a majority is?

You claim the vast majority will vote yes. Is 51 / 57% a vast majority? 30% isn't even close to passing.

Where is the optimism coming from? There is no reason why a person wouldn't be truthful in an opinion poll.

ELM327

jh79 wrote: »

Where have I redefined what a majority is?

You claim the vast majority will vote yes. Is 51 / 57% a vast majority? 30% isn't even close to passing.

Where is the optimism coming from? There is no reason why a person wouldn't be truthful in an opinion poll.

A majority is 50% +1 vote.
Same as brexit or any referendum

[Deleted User]

ELM327 wrote: »

A majority is 50% +1 vote.
Same as brexit or any referendum

The context here is Francie optimism in spite of its poor showing in opinion polls.

If the vast majority want an UI why did only 51% say they would like a border poll within 5 years?

If the vast majority want an UI why did only 30 odd % say they would be willing to pay via taxation for an UI?

ELM327

jh79 wrote: »

The context here is Francie optimism in spite of its poor showing in opinion polls.

If the vast majority want an UI why did only 51% say they would like a border poll within 5 years?

If the vast majority want an UI why did only 30 odd % say they would be willing to pay via taxation for an UI?

Have you ever heard of loaded questions?
The polling would need to be done by an unbiased source, not someone asking people on the streets of Belfast/Dublin "hey would you like to pay more taxes"

[Deleted User]

ELM327 wrote: »

Have you ever heard of loaded questions?
The polling would need to be done by an unbiased source, not someone asking people on the streets of Belfast/Dublin "hey would you like to pay more taxes"

A border poll within 5 years is a pretty benign question yet only got 51%.

Are you following Francie's lead with it's not a tax it's an unification contribution? Realistically that little piece of wordplay is hardly gonna trick enough to bring 30% up to 51%.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

The context here is Francie optimism in spite of its poor showing in opinion polls.

If the vast majority want an UI why did only 51% say they would like a border poll within 5 years?

If the vast majority want an UI why did only 30 odd % say they would be willing to pay via taxation for an UI?

Here's a poll which, for me, explains why Unionists are never going to willingly ask for a BP despite theirs and yours and others bravado about it failing.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/northern-ireland-poll-shows-454-back-irish-unity-and-468-support-union-with-uk-38989093.html

Polls are a snapshot in time...nothing more.

ELM327

jh79 wrote: »

A border poll within 5 years is a pretty benign question yet only got 51%.

Are you following Francie's lead with it's not a tax it's an unification contribution? Realistically that little piece of wordplay is hardly gonna trick enough to bring 30% up to 51%.

Not as if there's any **cough DDR ** precedent for that or anything

PS: We're not about "tricking" anyone. We didnt plant people or gerrymander borders to suit ourselves.

BonnieSituation

jh79 wrote: »

I'll vote for it if the financial side is reasonable.

Cool. Honestly, you're not special and not worth wooing. You'd be best off putting your energy elsewhere.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It's like the desperate attempt to redefine what a 'majority' is. Completely pathetic not to mention dangerous.

What? Partitionists and Unionists move the goalposts as it suits them?

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Here's a poll which, for me, explains why Unionists are never going to willingly ask for a BP despite theirs and yours and others bravado about it failing.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/northern-ireland-poll-shows-454-back-irish-unity-and-468-support-union-with-uk-38989093.html

Polls are a snapshot in time...nothing more.

The low numbers in NI are to be expected but what excuse is there in the Republic? 30% is shocking really. Considering it is meant to be something we as a nation aspire to.

Recently MLD followed Martins lead with a bit of bluster about a border poll claiming it would happen within 5 years yet only 51% agree with her

BonnieSituation

jh79 wrote: »

The low numbers in NI are to be expected but what excuse is there in the Republic? 30% is shocking really. Considering it is meant to be something we as a nation aspire to.

Recently MLD followed Martins lead with a bit of bluster about a border poll claiming it would happen within 5 years yet only 51% agree with her

So then you've nothing to be worried about then. Why are you getting your knickers in a twist?

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

The low numbers in NI are to be expected but what excuse is there in the Republic? 30% is shocking really. Considering it is meant to be something we as a nation aspire to.

Recently MLD followed Martins lead with a bit of bluster about a border poll claiming it would happen within 5 years yet only 51% agree with her

Your poll was carried out before mine...mine says

73.1% of respondents said they would vote for Northern Ireland to be part of a united Ireland,

It is complete arrogance to suggest that they are saying that without realising there may be a cost to that.

P.S. Micheál Martin said that he'd NEVER go into coalition with FG...guess who's prediction I'm going with.

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Your poll was carried out before mine...mine says

It is complete arrogance to suggest that they are saying that without realising there may be a cost to that.

P.S. Micheál Martin said that he'd NEVER go into coalition with FG...guess who's prediction I'm going with.

Funnily enough, the B&A poll reported a similar result for the same question, 79% I think. When paying for it was added, it plummeted to 30%. So not arrogance just based on evidence from a previous poll.

Pity they didn't follow up with a similar question in that one.

Post COVID economy isn't gonna help the cause

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Funnily enough, the B&A poll reported a similar result for the same question, 79% I think. When paying for it was added, it plummeted to 30%. So not arrogance just based on evidence from a previous poll.

Pity they didn't follow up with a similar question in that one.

So if a UI is presented as an investment, the cost defrayed and minimised over many years, (as I think it will be) then nobody needs to ask that question, that will always elicit a negative answer.

Plus the fact that the situation is extremely fluid with Brexit, and only the most ardent Unionist believes things are going to get better economically for NI and Ireland if partition persists.

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So if a UI is presented as an investment, the cost defrayed and minimised over many years, (as I think it will be) then nobody needs to ask that question, that will always elicit a negative answer.

Plus the fact that the situation is extremely fluid with Brexit, and only the most ardent Unionist believes things are going to get better economically for NI and Ireland if partition persists.

It will need to be to be successful. Maybe SF should face reality and accept it will be a financial decision for many and come up with a plan.

Before you say what about FF/FG? I don't think they have any interest in an UI until the economy is prosperous again.

BonnieSituation

jh79 wrote: »

Funnily enough, the B&A poll reported a similar result for the same question, 79% I think. When paying for it was added, it plummeted to 30%. So not arrogance just based on evidence from a previous poll.

Pity they didn't follow up with a similar question in that one.

Post COVID economy isn't gonna help the cause

I mean, if we micromanaged the economy to such an extent as to ask the citizenry to pay for various services, then as tightfisted as the Irish are and how they see anyone getting anything as scrounger, then nothing would ever be done.

It's plain nonsense to ask a loaded question like that when the "paying" for it will be barely a ripple to the man on the street if a cost at all long-term.

The question on the referendum will be a simple:

"Should Ireland be reunified?"

That will be it!

BonnieSituation

jh79 wrote: »

It will need to be to be successful. Maybe SF should face reality and accept it will be a financial decision for many and come up with a plan.

Before you say what about FF/FG? I don't think they have any interest in an UI until the economy is prosperous again.

UNTIL?

Always "until something else..." with partitionists.