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Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

[Deleted User]

Is there another way of looking at it?
It’s still very, very divided, and actually seems to be getting more polarized over the last five years. It’s economy is woeful, very heavily dependent on the public sector.
Unionists are making plans to celebrate its centenary, but there seems to be very little to be happy with, certainly far less than the Republic or the rest of the UK.
No point in arguing about a border poll on this thread, but is there any possible way of looking at NI as a social, political and economic failure?

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ELM327

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What?

That reads like the internet version of the 'head staggers'.

Wilful delusion imo

grayzer75

jh79 wrote: »

That's has never been formalized. Some say it is a region of Britain other call it a country but that isn't recognized in international law.

The definition of British includes the UK as i posted earlier.

It's a statelet which is part of the UK.

Britain is England, Scotland, Wales and then add NI and it defined as the UK.

ROI is the 26 counties, the island of ireland is 32 counites.

Downcow is British as that is how she identifies herself which is 100% correct. My father-in-law was the same until the Brexit sh*tshow but he now identifies as Irish / European.

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What?

That reads like the internet version of the 'head staggers'.

Never heard that term before. Had to google it so am i an "eejit" or trying to insult someone?

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Denial of reality by some in Ireland seems to be a running theme at the moment.

We're not Irish - it's not a border etc etc and on it goes.

https://twitter.com/SJAMcBride/status/1346792900252864512

Surely the Unionist see that the Irish sea border means the Republic can ignore unification for another few decades?

Junkyard Tom

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oavMtUWDBTM

chrissb8

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You want partition to continue thus you are a Partitionist. It's not that difficult to make that determination.

Can you be more vague please?

Right? I thought you didn't want to pay through the nose. What do you mean by fiscal package?

Into what fold?

Oh right, so ending vetoes then? That's a good idea.

Who do you think will be discriminating against who?

Who's saying that's gonna happen? What are you on about?

What issue is that?

How would you propose to appease people who feel "partitioned" after a democratic vote in both jurisdictions?

Do you reckon the pogroms of 1920 will be reimplemented by nationalists? Will there be demonstrations of triumphalism? Perhaps we'll take away the vote. That'll learn em.

Good thing you're here to inform me. Jesus.

What about your 'fiscal package'?

Sure, I have never considered the realities before you came along and showed me. /s

Honestly...

Health care, education, unemployment, investment for job creation and that's just off the top of my head. So yes, a fiscal package would need to be put in place. Anything that was British run would now have to be brought to Irish standards.

A fiscal package to stimulate growth in N.Ireland would be essential. Which as I have said, Ireland could not afford right now or in the near future. As in if there was a vote it would need to be when Ireland is in a relative place to actually handle it.

The protestant community is only 41% of N.Ireland. So yes, even if there was a majority vote there would still be a proportion of people who could/would very much feel they're being pushed aside. Those union jack flags all around aren't just there for show.

I'm sure they could represent themselves through the DUP. But again another wart Ireland has to inherit.

I didn't say I had the answers for appeasement, and nor would I. Decades of tension and violence would take a lot of talking and be a long process. What the end result would be, I don't know. But I'm saying it would be a big issue to consider and would be something you would have to work through.

No one wants the troubles or even a lesser version, and that would be a glaringly obvious thing to avoid.

Discriminating against who??? That answers itself, what is this question thing you're doing.

Present an argument or don't. All you're showing right now is pettiness in a pathetic attempt to derail the conversation. Counter my points.

I iterate again, I don't want partitioning to continue forever. I want it to end in a logical, safe and well thought out way. Wherein the major factors are considered (which I have highlighted throughout my posts before you retort with "What major factors?" or something)

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Never heard that term before. Had to google it so am i an "eejit" or trying to insult someone?

The 'head staggers' are taken when someone ties themselves up in knots as a result of anger or over eagerness. Often comes in the form of incomprehensible contradictory language.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That the Irish constitution recognises that we are an island of people of 'different identities' and our aspiration is to 'unite' them all as the Irish Nation.

Francie you are making my point for me. It is an aspiration to unite ni and Roi in one nation. And that is a reasonable aspiration. That’s what the gfa allows you to do.

It would be highly unusual to aspire to put something in place some that already is in place. Don’t you think?

That was a bit of an own goal.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie you are making my point for me. It is an aspiration to unite ni and Roi in one nation. And that is a reasonable aspiration. That’s what the gfa allows you to do.

It would be highly unusual to aspire to put something in place some that already is in place. Don’t you think?

That was a bit of an own goal.

The people of the north...your neighbours downcow are a 'part' of the Irish Nation as shown in the constitution. It's as plain as day that the reference is to the island.

Please give up the denial. You can object...won't change the fact.

ittakestwo

downcow wrote: »

Francie you are making my point for me. It is an aspiration to unite ni and Roi in one nation. And that is a reasonable aspiration. That’s what the gfa allows you to do.

It would be highly unusual to aspire to put something in place some that already is in place. Don’t you think?

That was a bit of an own goal.

The aspiration is to unite the two current jurisdictions which govern the nation of Irish people into one sovereign jurisdiction. Not hard to get.

ittakestwo

Does the GFA agree what happens to the British Identity in the case of a UI? As the British Identity in Ireland is claimed by citizenship rather than Geography. What happens to the British Identity of people in the north in the event of a UI? They will no longer be living within the UK and are not from or live on Great Britain so can they still identify as British. Is there a reciprocal agreement where they can claim to be part of a British Nation and still get a UK passport?

FrancieBrady

ittakestwo wrote: »

Does the GFA agree what happens to the British Identity in the case of a UI? As the British Identity in Ireland is claimed by citizenship rather than Geography. What happens to the British Identity of people in the north in the event of a UI? They will no longer be living within the UK and are not from or live on Great Britain so can they still identify as British. Is there a reciprocal agreement where they can claim to be part of a British Nation and still get a UK passport?

You are talking to somebody who cannot guarantee his peacefulness if NI disappears as an entity.
NI as an entity is the first thing that will disappear in a UI. It will continue to be northern Ireland and a part of Ulster which it never ceased to be.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What hierarchy?

And where have I denied downcow his right to identify as 'British'?

You said I wasn’t british that I just thought I was british ðŸ˜‚

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You said I wasn’t british that I just thought I was british &#55357;&#56834;

Where did I remove your right to 'identify as British' downcow? A right given to all Irish people in the north of the island in the GFA?

BonnieSituation

ittakestwo wrote: »

Does the GFA agree what happens to the British Identity in the case of a UI? As the British Identity in Ireland is claimed by citizenship rather than Geography. What happens to the British Identity of people in the north in the event of a UI? They will no longer be living within the UK and are not from or live on Great Britain so can they still identify as British. Is there a reciprocal agreement where they can claim to be part of a British Nation and still get a UK passport?

I would imagine a scenario that applied to the Republic from 1921 to 1948 would occur.

It's in the gift of the future Kingdom of Great Britain in that scenario anyway, but I will imagine that negotiations on reunification would include those sorts of discussions about the citizenship of the people of the former Statelet.

It's not a big deal anyway and easily resolvable.

BonnieSituation

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Denial of reality by some in Ireland seems to be a running theme at the moment.

We're not Irish - it's not a border etc etc and on it goes.

https://twitter.com/SJAMcBride/status/1346792900252864512

“Our people may be British but our cows are Irish”- Ian Paisley Sr

maccored

jh79 wrote: »

She was born on the island of Ireland but in Britain* (UK). She has to chose to identify as one or the other or neither. There is a legal default to Britain but no Irish default. Whatever way you spin her Irishness (sic) is chosen as an identity.

*NI is a region of Britain according to some?

no its not. its part of the UK, but not britain

https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/The-UK-Great-Britain-Whats-the-Difference/#:~:text=The%20UK%20%E2%80%93%20a%20sovereign%20state,north%20west%20coast%20of%20Europe.

maccored

jh79 wrote: »

British
/ˈbrɪtɪʃ/
Learn to pronounce
adjective
1.
relating to Great Britain or the United Kingdom, or to its people or language.
2.
of the British Commonwealth or (formerly) the British Empire.

Collins Dictionary
British
(brɪtɪʃ )
1. ADJECTIVE
British means belonging or relating to the United Kingdom, or to its people or culture.
...the British government.
...traditional British cookery.
2. PLURAL NOUN
The British are the people of Great Britain.

if you are trying to say northern ireland is in britain, then you wasted your time

In fact, if you dont known even that basic bit of info - should you be debating about the north in the first place?

[Deleted User]

maccored wrote: »

if you are trying to say northern ireland is in britain, then you wasted your time

In fact, if you dont known even that basic bit of info - should you be debating about the north in the first place?

Not saying it's in Britain but that Dowcow being British is factually correct, definition is in my post.

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

“Our people may be British but our cows are Irish”- Ian Paisley Sr

Haha. I certainly agree with you that the first bit of his statement is correct.
As for the cows, most of mine are Aberdeen Angus and shorthorn. Could we get Francie etc to give us a steer on their nationality.
Clearly their roots are on the mainland, but they were born in the occupied six counties and yet their ear tag has UK in its number. I am convinced they seem in better form and have a spring in their step on the twelfth morning. I have though one cow with IE in its tag and it has a hint of a Monaghan brogue. I think it gets pick on by the others, especially around July.

Tbh I think we are on to something here.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Not saying it's in Britain but that Dowcow being British is factually correct, definition is in my post.

We know downcow has identified as British. He was not born in Britain though, he was born in Ireland. He is just like a Jamaican who identifies as British but was born in Jamaica. All possible in a legal framework.

Other than that, not sure what your point is.

downcow

jh79 wrote: »

Not saying it's in Britain but that Dowcow being British is factually correct, definition is in my post.

You are correct jh79 And setting people aside, Northern Ireland is British in the eyes of UN etc. It’s quite sad that some need to live in fantasy to keep themselves sane. 99 years on and they still can’t accept that a successful ni still exists.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We know downcow has identified as British. He was not born in Britain though, he was born in Ireland. He is just like a Jamaican who identifies as British but was born in Jamaica. All possible in a legal framework.

Other than that, not sure what your point is.

The courts say different Francie. They say everyone born in ni is british. The gfa now allows them to them chose Irish if they prefer but british is the default position. I have no idea if same applies in Jamaica

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

The courts say different Francie. They say everyone born in ni is british. The gfa now allows them to them chose Irish if they prefer but british is the default position. I have no idea if same applies in Jamaica

British courts downcow. You were born in IRELAND. if you want to take me to court on that I guarantee you I will win the case...in Britain, Ireland or at the UN because it is the facts.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

British courts downcow. You were born in IRELAND. if you want to take me to court on that I guarantee you I will win the case...in Britain, Ireland or at the UN because it is the facts.

Francie. You know other people can read this?
I am embarrassed for you ðŸ˜³

ittakestwo

downcow wrote: »

You are correct jh79 And setting people aside, Northern Ireland is British in the eyes of UN etc. It’s quite sad that some need to live in fantasy to keep themselves sane. 99 years on and they still can’t accept that a successful ni still exists.

So you are a British citizen by the fact you live within the sovereign country of the United Kingdom of GB & NI. Is this your only claim to being British? If there is a UI will you still claim to be British and under what grounds?

Do you believe there is a British Nation of people which will be part of Ireland despite a UI. Yesterday you did not seem keen on the analogy of a nation of people but why do I believe you will be buying into this concept if there is a UI. The years of living in the very segrated society of NI can never have you admit your irish will it?

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Haha. I certainly agree with you that the first bit of his statement is correct.
As for the cows, most of mine are Aberdeen Angus and shorthorn. Could we get Francie etc to give us a steer on their nationality.
Clearly their roots are on the mainland, but they were born in the occupied six counties and yet their ear tag has UK in its number. I am convinced they seem in better form and have a spring in their step on the twelfth morning. I have though one cow with IE in its tag and it has a hint of a Monaghan brogue. I think it gets pick on by the others, especially around July.

Tbh I think we are on to something here.

Well lookie here, downcow didn't get the point. Shambles.

Finty Lemon

ittakestwo wrote: »

So you are a British citizen by the fact you live within the sovereign country of the United Kingdom of GB & NI. If there is a UI will you still claim to be British and under what grounds?

Under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement, voted on by the people.

downcow

ittakestwo wrote: »

So you are a British citizen by the fact you live within the sovereign country of the United Kingdom of GB & NI. Is this your only claim to being British? If there is a UI will you still claim to be British and under what grounds?

Do you believe there is a British Nation of people which will be part of Ireland despite a UI. Yesterday you did not seem keen on the analogy of a nation of people but why do I believe you will be buying into this concept if there is a UI. The years of living in the very segrated society of NI can never have you admit your irish will it?

Your staring point is patronising, nasty and incorrect.
Terms like ‘will I admit I am irish’ etc are contemptible
You opening para here is rediculous. You state what is accepted accross the world as making someone british and then ask is that all I am relying on. It time you went and had a cold bath and thought about your approach.

Your description is exactly what makes an English person british and yes it is what makes me british.
One correction though It is not because me and Tony Blair live in uk that we are british, it is because we were born british due mainly to our parents being british and being born in the uk.

You are just being silly now to try to hold together a position that it would be difficult to find support for outside of a few crazy posters on here

downcow

Finty Lemon wrote: »

Under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement, voted on by the people.

Yes exactly.

And I often remind my unionist friends who opposed the gfa that we are very fortunate to have it.
We would be in very shaky ground now without it. I would not trust some side deals to create a United ireland with Roi Eu and uk government.
But we are rock solid and have it all in the hands of OWC due to gfa. All we have to do is ensure a good solid majority of all the people of owc continue to enjoy and appreciate the benifits of living in the U.K. that just about to get even easier when we start to enjoy unfettered export into both the Eu and the uk. Where would you establish your deport if you wanted to supply goods to uk, Roi and even into Europe mainland.

Thank god for the gfa.

Success levels of ni are just about to go through the roof.

You could change the thread title to ‘how have those wee bastards just managed to get even more successful? If they fell in the river they’d come out with a salmon in their pocket ‘

Haha. As they say here. Put the flags out!