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Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

[Deleted User]

Is there another way of looking at it?
It’s still very, very divided, and actually seems to be getting more polarized over the last five years. It’s economy is woeful, very heavily dependent on the public sector.
Unionists are making plans to celebrate its centenary, but there seems to be very little to be happy with, certainly far less than the Republic or the rest of the UK.
No point in arguing about a border poll on this thread, but is there any possible way of looking at NI as a social, political and economic failure?

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Junkyard Tom

chrissb8 wrote: »

Basically, I am all for a united Ireland. But not right now or even in a few years, unless the above is considered.

I think that the consideration, planning, and implementation, will take time by its very nature, I haven't heard anyone say that we vote for a UI and the next day the Gardai roll into the Shankill in their Hyundai i30s to take down the UVF flags.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You have the right to identify as British. Nobody has said anything different.
Scottish people, Welsh people and English people have the same rights, as have Jamaicans, and a myriad of other former colonies citizens.

P.S. That's my last word on the subject by the way. You know my position at this stage.

Yes this is an endless circle. Let’s just agree to differ. You can continue believing your fellow posters have been got it right and I’ll go with the UN, the courts, the Irish constitution, and the gfa.

One of us is deluded, but sure there’s no way of knowing who

downcow

maccored wrote: »

you mean the passports that say 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'? ..... which is a UK passport, not a British one.

it says 'Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. Does not say 'Great Britain, which includes Northern Ireland'. You can identify as being from the UK - but not British (which of course you can, but it leads to the same issue as the north isnt actually in Britain).

https://lmgtfy.app/?q=what+is+a+british+passport

ittakestwo

From a geographical piont there are two islands that need to be considered. Ireland and Great Britain. In a geographical context Irish are from Ireland and British from Great Britain.

Over these two islands there is two sovereign states which are political areas rather than geographical areas. The Republc of Ireland which covers the south west of the island of Ireland and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northan Ireland which covers all of the Island of Great Britain and the north east part of the island of Ireland. The citizenship of a person who lives within ROI is an Irish citizen and a person who lives with in the United Kingdom of GB & NI is British citizen.

Within these two islands there are four nations of people. The Irish, English Scottish and Welsh. Over these islands people describe themselves firstly by what nation of people they are from rather than their citizenship.

However due to northan ireland being an extremely segregated place, some people deny they are from the irish nation as these see this as a threat to NI remaining
Within the Uk and will just refer to themselves by their British citizenship despite referring to other people from the islands by their nation of people and other nations of people referring to them as Irish.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Yes this is an endless circle. Let’s just agree to differ. You can continue believing your fellow posters have been got it right and I’ll go with the UN, the courts, the Irish constitution, and the gfa.

One of us is deluded, but sure there’s no way of knowing who

Sorry, have to respond to a wild inaccuracy here:

This is what the Irish constitution says downcow...may be news to you:

It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island. Until then, the laws enacted by the Parliament established by this Constitution shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws enacted by the Parliament[a] that existed immediately before the coming into operation of this Constitution.

It has to be also said that this is a document recognised by the UN and the EU, not to mention the British government too.

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Sorry, have to respond to a wild inaccuracy here:

This is what the Irish constitution says downcow...may be news to you:

It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island. Until then, the laws enacted by the Parliament established by this Constitution shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws enacted by the Parliament[a] that existed immediately before the coming into operation of this Constitution.

It has to be also said that this is a document recognised by the UN and the EU, not to mention the British government too.

Francie, in the above Irish Nation being referred to is the Republic so not sure what point you are trying to make.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Francie, in the above Irish Nation being referred to is the Republic so not sure what point you are trying to make.

That the Irish constitution recognises that we are an island of people of 'different identities' and our aspiration is to 'unite' them all as the Irish Nation.

maccored

downcow wrote: »

https://lmgtfy.app/?q=what+is+a+british+passport

your point?

ittakestwo

jh79 wrote: »

Francie, in the above Irish Nation being referred to is the Republic so not sure what point you are trying to make.

The nation is referring to the irish nation of people whether in ROI or NI to unite into one sovereign country.

[Deleted User]

ittakestwo wrote: »

The nation is referring to the irish nation of people whether in ROI or NI to unite into one sovereign country.

No its not. It was changed to remove any claim from the Republic over NI.

The Irish Nation is the Republic and it's our will to unite the territory of Ireland

[Deleted User]

maccored wrote: »

you mean the passports that say 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'? ..... which is a UK passport, not a British one.

it says 'Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. Does not say 'Great Britain, which includes Northern Ireland'. You can identify as being from the UK - but not British (which of course you can, but it leads to the same issue as the north isnt actually in Britain).

British
/ˈbrɪtɪʃ/
Learn to pronounce
adjective
1.
relating to Great Britain or the United Kingdom, or to its people or language.
2.
of the British Commonwealth or (formerly) the British Empire.

Collins Dictionary
British
(brɪtɪʃ )
1. ADJECTIVE
British means belonging or relating to the United Kingdom, or to its people or culture.
...the British government.
...traditional British cookery.
2. PLURAL NOUN
The British are the people of Great Britain.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

No its not. It was changed to remove any claim from the Republic over NI.

The Irish Nation is the Republic and it's our will to unite the territory of Ireland

Yes, it is now our aspiration.

The 'Republic' is the Republic, the 'Irish Nation' includes those in the north who also wish to unite with the other identities here.

This isn't rocket science jh79.

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes, it is now our aspiration.

The 'Republic' is the Republic, the 'Irish Nation' includes those in the north who also wish to unite with the other identities here.

This isn't rocket science jh79.

Francie, you know well part of the GFA was removing any claim by the Republic over NI. The section you quoted was carefully worded to reflect that. The Irish Nation is the Republic and the Republic only and the aspiration is to unite the territory.

Otherwise it would say reunite the Irish Nation.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

British
/ˈbrɪtɪʃ/
Learn to pronounce
adjective
1.
relating to Great Britain or the United Kingdom, or to its people or language.
2.
of the British Commonwealth or (formerly) the British Empire.

Collins Dictionary
British
(brɪtɪʃ )
1. ADJECTIVE
British means belonging or relating to the United Kingdom, or to its people or culture.
...the British government.
...traditional British cookery.
2. PLURAL NOUN
The British are the people of Great Britain.

WE KNOW THIS...a Jamaican, Falklander etc can assume the British identity, it's a benefit of colonisation, given by the UK ...they are still Jamaicans and Falkalanders by birth though. 'British' is an 'identity'

ittakestwo

jh79 wrote: »

No its not. It was changed to remove any claim from the Republic over NI.

The Irish Nation is the Republic and it's our will to unite the territory of Ireland

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articles_2_and_3_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

"The new wording describes the Irish nation as a community of individuals with a common identity rather than as a territory, and is intended to reassure unionists that a united Ireland will not happen without the consent of a majority of the Northern Ireland electorate"

The "nation" does not equal the ROI

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

WE KNOW THIS...a Jamaican, Falklander etc can assume the British identity, it's a benefit of colonisation, given by the UK ...they are still Jamaicans and Falkalanders by birth though. 'British' is an 'identity'

My issue is you putting an hierarchy on something that is subjective. Google the definition of nationality and you'll see that Downcow is factually correct on his Britishness.

Nationality can be place of Birth (Ireland), country of Birth (Britain) or under international law;

Nationality is a legal identification of a person in international law, establishing the person as a subject, a national, of a sovereign state. It affords the state jurisdiction over the person and affords the person the protection of the state against other states.[1]

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Francie, you know well part of the GFA was removing any claim by the Republic over NI. The section you quoted was carefully worded to reflect that. The Irish Nation is the Republic and the Republic only and the aspiration is to unite the territory.

Otherwise it would say reunite the Irish Nation.

I KNOW we dropped our claim and it is now an aspiration.

The 'Irish Nation' is

• The old Article 2 defined the nation in terms of its geographical territory, i.e. the island of Ireland and its territorial seas. The new Article 2 defines the nation by reference to its people.
• Anyone who was born on the island of Ireland has a birthright and entitlement to be part of the Irish nation * The language of the article is noteworthy — those who were born on this island but do not want to be part of the Irish nation are merely given the opportunity (and not forced) to be part of the nation.
• Those who were not born on the island but who have otherwise acquired citizenship (through a parent, spouse or by naturalisation) are also part of the Irish nation.
5
• The Irish nation expresses an affinity with those of Irish origin living abroad. This does not automatically make such persons part of the Irish nation, however. Membership of
the nation is reserved to those either born on the island or otherwise entitled to citizenship.

Not rocket science jh79 and you really should know this stuff before wading in.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

My issue is you putting an hierarchy on something that is subjective. Google the definition of nationality and you'll see that Downcow is factually correct on his Britishness.

Nationality can be place of Birth (Ireland), country of Birth (Britain) or under international law;

Nationality is a legal identification of a person in international law, establishing the person as a subject, a national, of a sovereign state. It affords the state jurisdiction over the person and affords the person the protection of the state against other states.[1]

What hierarchy?

And where have I denied downcow his right to identify as 'British'?

[Deleted User]

ittakestwo wrote: »

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articles_2_and_3_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

"The new wording describes the Irish nation as a community of individuals with a common identity rather than as a territory, and is intended to reassure unionists that a united Ireland will not happen without the consent of a majority of the Northern Ireland electorate"

The "nation" does not equal the ROI

I stand corrected so.

Does that mean I identify as Irish rather than just being Irish? Francie won't like that:D

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What hierarchy?

And where have I denied downcow his right to identify as 'British'?

Because you say that it is only the British that identify as such, the other side just are.

MON identifies as Irish no different than Downcow and his identity.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Because you say that it is only the British that identify as such, the other side just are.

MON identifies as Irish no different than Downcow and his identity.

And she was born in Ireland, just like me, downcow and you I presume.

What I object to here is the attempt to hollow out our nationhood rather than just accept reality.
In short, appeasing a step too far just because belligerent Unionism cannot accept the concept of Irishness and all it entails, including our common heritage.

As I said previously this is a new manifestation of stubbornness and insulting behaviour of belligerent Unionism and I for one, will not pander to it, while recognising perfectly reasonable rights to identify as you wish.
The generation of Ian Paisley and Trimble had no issue with being defined as 'Irish'.

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And she was born in Ireland, just like me, downcow and you I presume.

Yes, based on one of the definitions of nationality as place of Birth.

Her country of Birth though is Britain / UK so could also be called British but she wishes to identify as Irish.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Yes, based on one of the definitions of nationality as place of Birth.

Her country of Birth though is Britain / UK so could also be called British but she wishes to identify as Irish.

She is Irish jh79...what jurisdictional area she identifies with is a choice she makes (just like everyone else) when she is able too. A 'choice'.

FrancieBrady

Denial of reality by some in Ireland seems to be a running theme at the moment.

We're not Irish - it's not a border etc etc and on it goes.

https://twitter.com/SJAMcBride/status/1346792900252864512

ELM327

jh79 wrote: »

My issue is you putting an hierarchy on something that is subjective. Google the definition of nationality and you'll see that Downcow is factually correct on his Britishness.

Nationality can be place of Birth (Ireland), country of Birth (Britain) or under international law;

Nationality is a legal identification of a person in international law, establishing the person as a subject, a national, of a sovereign state. It affords the state jurisdiction over the person and affords the person the protection of the state against other states.[1]

NI is not Britain though, it is UK but not Britain.

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

She is Irish jh79...what jurisdictional area she identifies with is a choice she makes (just like everyone else) when she is able too. A 'choice'.

She was born on the island of Ireland but in Britain* (UK). She has to chose to identify as one or the other or neither. There is a legal default to Britain but no Irish default. Whatever way you spin her Irishness (sic) is chosen as an identity.

*NI is a region of Britain according to some?

[Deleted User]

ELM327 wrote: »

NI is not Britain though, it is UK but not Britain.

That's has never been formalized. Some say it is a region of Britain other call it a country but that isn't recognized in international law.

The definition of British includes the UK as i posted earlier.

ELM327

jh79 wrote: »

She was born on the island of Ireland but in Britain* (UK). She has to chose to identify as one or the other or neither. There is a legal default to Britain but no Irish default. Whatever way you spin her Irishness (sic) is chosen as an identity.

*Legally NI is a region of Britain?

False.
NI is a region of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
NOT a region of Britain. The regions of Britain are England, Scotland and Wales.

ELM327

jh79 wrote: »

That's has never been formalized. Some say it is a region of Britain other call it a country but that isn't recognized in international law.

The definition of British includes the UK as i posted earlier.

Even the UK does not claim NI as "Britain"

https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/blog/2011/08/whats-the-difference-between-uk-britain-and-british-isles/

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

She was born on the island of Ireland but in Britain* (UK). She has to chose to identify as one or the other or neither. There is a legal default to Britain but no Irish default. Whatever way you spin her Irishness (sic) is chosen as an identity.

*NI is a region of Britain according to some?

What?

That reads like the internet version of the 'head staggers'.