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Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

[Deleted User]

Is there another way of looking at it?
It’s still very, very divided, and actually seems to be getting more polarized over the last five years. It’s economy is woeful, very heavily dependent on the public sector.
Unionists are making plans to celebrate its centenary, but there seems to be very little to be happy with, certainly far less than the Republic or the rest of the UK.
No point in arguing about a border poll on this thread, but is there any possible way of looking at NI as a social, political and economic failure?

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FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

The Island speaks English, watches Eastenders and follows Man Utd. haha what planet (never mind island) are you on.
Francie is an island

Some do downcow...part of the culture of the island. What is your point? Are you saying that is all that happens here?

You are out of road here, is the more likely explanation.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Some do downcow...part of the culture of the island. What is your point? Are you saying that is all that happens here?

You are out of road here, is the more likely explanation.

Francie we are getting nowhere here. Your hypocrisy is incredible.
In one breath you tell me that I as a British Ulster-Scot am just one of you and that we are all the same on this Island, but then you try to tell me how different Irish people are from Welsh people and that there is no way they could be in the same nation.

Catch yourself on

I am tired of tis endless hypocritical circle so i likely will leave you in fantasy land on this one

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie we are getting nowhere here. Your hypocrisy is incredible.
In one breath you tell me that I as a British Ulster-Scot am just one of you and that we are all the same on this Island, but then you try to tell me how different Irish people are from Welsh people and that there is no way they could be in the same nation.

Catch yourself on

I am tired of tis endless hypocritical circle so i likely will leave you in fantasy land on this one

I never said anything about Welsh people who have a distinct culture and language.

Just because you deny stuff and invent an improtance for a psuedo language/dialect(circa 1998) doesn't make you separate downcow.

You have differences, no doubt in the same way Kerry people have slightly different cultural practices to Monaghan people. We are all a part of the Irish nation though and a UI will prove it.

James Brown

The Covid crisis painfully points to the failure of the mock-statelet. Health and safety jeopardised because of politics. Easier to gage who comes in or out by sea than intercounty.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

If you are suggesting that the island is a nation, and that the majority of people to the north of that nation that themselves to be of a different identity/culture/etc and divided nation; then this is exactly what Ireland did to the British nation which consisted of a series of islands, when they requested independence for a number of the islands

Can anyone untangle this complete mess that DC has written here?

In the meantime:

When the British Monarch opened Stormont in 1921 he makes no mention of the British nation, 'northern' Irish people, Ulster Scots or any other contemporary construct Unionists use to mask their hatred of Ireland/Irish people:

For all who love Ireland, as I do with all my heart, this is a profoundly moving occasion in Irish history. My memories of the Irish people date back to the time when I spent many happy days in Ireland as a midshipman. My affection for the Irish people has been deepened by the successive visits since that time... I could not have allowed myself to give Ireland by deputy alone ... I have therefore come in person .. to inaugurate this Parliament on Irish soil.

King George's Message to both Houses of the Parliament of Northern Ireland given in person at Belfast on 22 June 1921

ittakestwo

downcow wrote: »

Francie we are getting nowhere here. Your hypocrisy is incredible.
In one breath you tell me that I as a British Ulster-Scot am just one of you and that we are all the same on this Island, but then you try to tell me how different Irish people are from Welsh people and that there is no way they could be in the same nation.

Catch yourself on

I am tired of tis endless hypocritical circle so i likely will leave you in fantasy land on this one

Are you saying that the nations of Ireland, England Scotland and Wales dont exist or is it just the nation of Ireland you are saying does not exist? If British people on the Island of Great Britain can be part of the nations of England Scotland and Wales why cant the British people on Ireland be part of the nation of Ireland?

jelem

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Can anyone untangle this complete mess that DC has written here?

In the meantime:

When the British Monarch opened Stormont in 1921 he makes no mention of the British nation, 'northern' Irish people, Ulster Scots or any other contemporary construct Unionists use to mask their hatred of Ireland/Irish people:

For all who love Ireland, as I do with all my heart, this is a profoundly moving occasion in Irish history. My memories of the Irish people date back to the time when I spent many happy days in Ireland as a midshipman. My affection for the Irish people has been deepened by the successive visits since that time... I could not have allowed myself to give Ireland by deputy alone ... I have therefore come in person .. to inaugurate this Parliament on Irish soil.

King George's Message to both Houses of the Parliament of Northern Ireland given in person at Belfast on 22 June 1921

Asquith lol no point quoting him as just like modern day coveny when speaking on brexit
"the government (british) have to do this and that" -- I remind you that a government of
approx 60 million and a world power ONLY has to do what the laws and the british courts tell
them to do.
politicians play to the crowd and some constantly prove themselves a failure by opening their mouths
on matters they do not know of or lack knowledge on how to behave with media now worldwide his
words gave a laugh to brits across the planet. bit like ant telling anteater should clean feet.

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Can anyone untangle this complete mess that DC has written here?

In the meantime:

When the British Monarch opened Stormont in 1921 he makes no mention of the British nation, 'northern' Irish people, Ulster Scots or any other contemporary construct Unionists use to mask their hatred of Ireland/Irish people:

For all who love Ireland, as I do with all my heart, this is a profoundly moving occasion in Irish history. My memories of the Irish people date back to the time when I spent many happy days in Ireland as a midshipman. My affection for the Irish people has been deepened by the successive visits since that time... I could not have allowed myself to give Ireland by deputy alone ... I have therefore come in person .. to inaugurate this Parliament on Irish soil.

King George's Message to both Houses of the Parliament of Northern Ireland given in person at Belfast on 22 June 1921

A Unionist position, belligerently expressed, undermined by those they seek 'union' with, so to speak. LoL.

Junkyard Tom

jelem wrote: »

I remind you that a government of approx 60 million and a world power ONLY has to do what the laws and the british courts tell them to do.

Coveney was pointing out realities that the British were having difficulty coming to terms with. Britain can no more escape the influence of us in the EU than the Moon can the Earth's gravity.

Now Britain will be following EU rules without having any input into their crafting. In fact, the British should really be nice to Ireland as we might just be the best friend they have left in the EU.

downcow

ittakestwo wrote: »

Are you saying that the nations of Ireland, England Scotland and Wales dont exist or is it just the nation of Ireland you are saying does not exist? If British people on the Island of Great Britain can be part of the nations of England Scotland and Wales why cant the British people on Ireland be part of the nation of Ireland?

And now we have gone full circle. It was you who posted the definition of a nation which flows out of the water any claim of this island to now be a nation. There is certainly an argument that it was a nation at one time, but it most certainly is not a nation now.

What is that aspirational cry? A nation once again! Does that very aspirational cry not accept that it is not currently a nation.

I was not the one that claimed Northern Ireland was a nation. It was your definition

ittakestwo

downcow wrote: »

And now we have gone full circle. It was you who posted the definition of a nation which flows out of the water any claim of this island to now be a nation. There is certainly an argument that it was a nation at one time, but it most certainly is not a nation now.

What is that aspirational cry? A nation once again! Does that very aspirational cry not accept that it is not currently a nation.

I was not the one that claimed Northern Ireland was a nation. It was your definition

You never answered my question, and this comes from a poster who always accuses others of ducking and diving question. If British people on GB can be part of the English Scottish or welsh nation. What nation are British people on Ireland part of? Are British people in Ireland treated differently from the rest of the union as they have one british identify

So you are saying Ireland was a nation but is not now? When did it stop. 1921? A nation does not equal a sovereign country. If this was the case then England Scotland and Wales would not be nations.

If me or you were visiting Great Britain and a local herd us speak. They would say they spoke in an Irish accent. The majority of people in the UK refer to Ireland as a nation of people. Only unionists in NI deny it.

BonnieSituation

Beltby wrote: »

Yeah, almost 40 years ago I went up to jonesboro on a shopping trip with my mother, aunt and nanny. It was a miserable morning, and while we were stopped at the border, I noticed something shifting in a ditch beside us. It was only a British soldier with his rifle pointing straight at me, the scummy bastard. I was about 7 at the time.

downcow wrote: »

What made him a ‘scummy bastard’ your eyes? Help me understand. Was it his nationality, colour, race, the fact he had a gun,
It’s not the phrase comes into my head when I see a member of the Irish army in the south. Or not even when I see someone who is in the ira - sometimes my mind would go into that territory if I knew what an individual was personally responsible for eg Martin magennis or Conor Murphy. Even then I would try to check myself from those immediate thoughts.
It seemed to flow from you with ease.

Beltby wrote: »

Have you ever seen a 7 year old member of the IRA?

jm08 wrote: »

The first thing any of us brought up with guns in the house ( to protect against vermin) were told is that you never, ever point a gun at anyone.
Pointing a gun at a child is not acceptable in any society.

downcow wrote: »

I would not agree with your analogy of controlling vermin. Yes the ira were vermin but I think that analogy of yours goes further and dehumanises them. Though I understand why you make the analogy.

As for the reference to 7 year olds, I have no idea why he talked about 7 year old ira men.

There is also a huge misunderstanding about pointing rifles. I experienced rifles pointed at me often in ni, but they were in the hands of trained soldiers who were trying to protect the community. The rifle sights were used like binoculars thereby meaning the rifle was pointed at whoever the soldier was looking at. I never felt threatened by this action as I understood what they were doing

---

Lads, come on. It's just not possible that someone can be this disingenuous. It's just not possible.

Engagement has bee futile and will continue to be so. If we don't engage it will go away...

James Brown

downcow wrote: »

What made him a ‘scummy bastard’ your eyes? Help me understand. Was it his nationality, colour, race, the fact he had a gun,
It’s not the phrase comes into my head when I see a member of the Irish army in the south. Or not even when I see someone who is in the ira - sometimes my mind would go into that territory if I knew what an individual was personally responsible for eg Martin magennis or Conor Murphy. Even then I would try to check myself from those immediate thoughts.
It seemed to flow from you with ease.

'Scummy bastard' is in the eye of the beholder. If a person of any gender, allegiance, nationality, pointed a gun at a seven year old they are not in any way decent IMO. I know the BA have previous for murdering children but I didn't think it was accepted policy to point guns at them.

[Deleted User]

I was born and bred in dublin,yet according to downcow i live in the "british isles", how can he possibly be taken serious? I know he says it to wind people up but its gone beyond ludicrous at this stage.also by his logic because i watch american movies and tv series like breaking bad etc i am culturally american!

jm08

downcow wrote: »

The Island speaks English, watches Eastenders and follows Man Utd. haha what planet (never mind island) are you on.
Francie is an island

My nephew speaks English, loves US TV (Sopranos, Homeland etc), mad keen on basketball (LeBron James / Lakers). Does that make him a yank?

Or, half of GB watch Mrs Brown's Boys (usually most watchshow for Xmas Day). Are they all Gaels now?

Kermit.de.frog

https://twitter.com/SJAMcBride/status/1346160703678390274

Eq6VNgVXcAAE02p?format=jpg&name=small

Not sure the unionists can have much complaint tbh.

Junkyard Tom

droidman123 wrote: »

I know he says it to wind people up...

I'm not entirely sure it is a wind-up which makes it all the more tragic for Unionism as that bizarre brand of 'Britishness' will never be bought into by those from a Catholic/Nationalist background.

My advice to Unionists like DC would be to vote Alliance, embrace his Irish identity/heritage, and become strong supporters of the European Union, because that might just prolong UK jurisdiction for a little longer.

Chances of Unionists like DC doing the above? Zero. Unionism can't even save itself.

BonnieSituation

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://twitter.com/SJAMcBride/status/1346160703678390274

Not sure the unionists can have much complaint tbh.

Won't stop them complaining though

Beltby

BonnieSituation wrote: »

---

Lads, come on. It's just not possible that someone can be this disingenuous. It's just not possible.

Engagement has bee futile and will continue to be so. If we don't engage it will go away...

I'm finished with that poster. The fact he sees nothing wrong with aiming a rifle straight at a little boy on a coach full of women, tells me all I need to know about him.

chrissb8

Anytime I'm passing through the North I am instantly filled with a sense of waste. Violence, death lines drawn in the sand that became trenches soon enough, and still the same state of affairs.

The UK doesn't care about them and the republic is not too fussed either. A weird world within its own wherein the population seem to be stuck in a conflict that both sides aren't too sure of anymore as more time passes but continue with a cold war-like intensity none the less.

A big failure in my mind and when people say it's better than it was. Well yes, not having to worry about paramilitary/military activity and bombs is certainly an upgrade.

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

---

Lads, come on. It's just not possible that someone can be this disingenuous. It's just not possible.

Engagement has bee futile and will continue to be so. If we don't engage it will go away...

Bonnie spin all you like. I’ll try not to go away as there are very few on here who will challenge the republican revisionist echo chamber which this thread is.
I keep my nose squeaky clean to avoid a ban as I know that would also fit some agendas.
Me and my community get called all sorts of things on here but so be it.

Back to your point - if there is a point in it.

I asked a simple question, why did the poster refer to the young man or woman in uniform as a ‘scummy bastard’.

As for my question on 7 year olds I still don’t see what the reference is to a 7 year old ira man. Is he suggesting that the army should only look through their sights at ira men. Also was this 7yearold driving the vechicle on his own or were their adults in it. The story is a tad far fetched, that the soldier singled out the 7yearold for inspection and ignored the adults

What is disingenuous is this thread.
3,500+ posts of which 3,000+ are just people trying to convince themselves that NI has no right to exist.
Look at the title.
Oh I’d like to say more but it may vere outside of the rules so I will not

[Deleted User]

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I'm not entirely sure it is a wind-up which makes it all the more tragic for Unionism as that bizarre brand of 'Britishness' will never be bought into by those from a Catholic/Nationalist background.

My advice to Unionists like DC would be to vote Alliance, embrace his Irish identity/heritage, and become strong supporters of the European Union, because that might just prolong UK jurisdiction for a little longer.

Chances of Unionists like DC doing the above? Zero. Unionism can't even save itself.

Yep, Unionism is fast tracking the collapse of the Union itself, the irony. This type of hardline Unionism is falling by the wayside, and once the effects of Brexit are fully felt in NI (and they will be) moderate Unionists will most likely favour EU membership in whatever form it's offered over retaining the Union.

I have several friends and extended family members who would be considered Unionist, although that'd be UUP and increasingly Alliance. Many of them come from families that have small businesses or farms and from the outset Brexit was a terrible idea, the idea of a UI and EU membership is becoming more important than being an isolated area, within a political Union which has no desire to retain said Union any longer.

The Scots are angling for an Independence Referendum, and if they get it, it'll pass. Without a doubt. Johnson is absolutely bricking it, just listen to his interview on the Marr show from a few days ago, he was all over the place in trying to play down another Scottish referendum.

As someone from NI I don't think it's a failure. I believe partition and the Union has run it's course, the world has become more globalised and people are much more concerned with schools, healthcare, housing and employment than old political ideologies. The younger generations in NI are increasingly benign to the politics of Green/Orange and any movement towards a UI shouldn't be seen as a rise in Nationalism/Republicanism but as an increase in people simply wanting the best for themselves and their families.

downcow

droidman123 wrote: »

I was born and bred in dublin,yet according to downcow i live in the "british isles", how can he possibly be taken serious? I know he says it to wind people up but its gone beyond ludicrous at this stage.also by his logic because i watch american movies and tv series like breaking bad etc i am culturally american!

Droidman
You either have not read the last few pages or are at your work.

You know right well that I was applying the other posters logic to his own territory that he was apply to mine.
I don’t know you but from what you say, you appear to me as an Irishman of irish nationality living in the Irish republic which I have no problem accepting is a form of the Irish nation. I also have no problem accepting that those scattered around the globe of Irish decent whether it be Liverpool, Londonderry or Los Angeles are also part of the Irish nation.
And i accept you do not live in the british isles, that ceased to exist some time ago.

Where it gets rediculous is where some posters on here try to tell me, a british person living in the uk, that I am Irish and living in the Irish nation. What’s good for the goose and all that

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

My nephew speaks English, loves US TV (Sopranos, Homeland etc), mad keen on basketball (LeBron James / Lakers). Does that make him a yank?

Or, half of GB watch Mrs Brown's Boys (usually most watchshow for Xmas Day). Are they all Gaels now?

This is exactly the point I am trying to make to Francie. Maybe he will understand this better coming from one of his own

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I'm not entirely sure it is a wind-up which makes it all the more tragic for Unionism as that bizarre brand of 'Britishness' will never be bought into by those from a Catholic/Nationalist background.

My advice to Unionists like DC would be to vote Alliance, embrace his Irish identity/heritage, and become strong supporters of the European Union, because that might just prolong UK jurisdiction for a little longer.

Chances of Unionists like DC doing the above? Zero. Unionism can't even save itself.

Haha. It’s all in the title. 99 years on and you can’t ‘break the bastards’ as Gerry said

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Droidman
You either have not read the last few pages or are at your work.

You know right well that I was applying the other posters logic to his own territory that he was apply to mine.
I don’t know you but from what you say, you appear to me as an Irishman of irish nationality living in the Irish republic which I have no problem accepting is a form of the Irish nation. I also have no problem accepting that those scattered around the globe of Irish decent whether it be Liverpool, Londonderry or Los Angeles are also part of the Irish nation.
And i accept you do not live in the british isles, that ceased to exist some time ago.

Where it gets rediculous is where some posters on here try to tell me, a british person living in the uk, that I am Irish and living in the Irish nation. What’s good for the goose and all that

There we have the reason why Boris had to lie through his teeth to certain Unionists while he accepted the reality (as he and May were always going to) that the island of Ireland was never and is not Britain.

Partition failed for us, all of us and for Britain.

downcow

Beltby wrote: »

I'm finished with that poster. The fact he sees nothing wrong with aiming a rifle straight at a little boy on a coach full of women, tells me all I need to know about him.

So now it’s a coach full of women?
Anyhow let me try again with you and if I patronise you then so be it as I am not sure you are getting why this would happen.

I missed the year but I am guessing it was in the troubles.
As for your trip being women; a major tactic of the ira was planting incendiary devices in department stores. Most of these came in in women’s handbags or tucked into prams etc. Many of them came along with shopping trips from the south.
That soldier would have been briefed either that day or very recently with suspects and info from informers about who to look out for. Whilst lying in the ditch he would use his rifle sights to scan the buses and cars looking for known republicans (and yes that could certainly include ira bomber women operating under the cover of a shopping trip).
So it’s completely logical to me that ha would scan along his side of the coach looking for suspects. (I do completely understand that that could appear to a young boy in the coach as threatening)

But remember the outcome of missing these bombers getting through. Babies murdered in prams, unborn children blown up, young girls blown to pieces.

Growing up in my community which was under attack from some of your community I have to say. Yes I understand your problem that day but you need to just get over it. That soldiers same actions, maybe with the next car or bus, may have saved a seven year old in banbridge getting blown to pieces.

Some of you guys need to get real. Have a dig and see how many kids and babies the ira killed. They needed stopped and thank god the were and thank his god the bravery of those young men who protected us

grayzer75

downcow wrote: »

So now it’s a coach full of women?
Anyhow let me try again with you and if I patronise you then so be it as I am not sure you are getting why this would happen.

I missed the year but I am guessing it was in the troubles.
As for your trip being women; a major tactic of the ira was planting incendiary devices in department stores. Most of these came in in women’s handbags or tucked into prams etc. Many of them came along with shopping trips from the south.
That soldier would have been briefed either that day or very recently with suspects and info from informers about who to look out for. Whilst lying in the ditch he would use his rifle sights to scan the buses and cars looking for known republicans (and yes that could certainly include ira bomber women operating under the cover of a shopping trip).
So it’s completely logical to me that ha would scan along his side of the coach looking for suspects. (I do completely understand that that could appear to a young boy in the coach as threatening)

But remember the outcome of missing these bombers getting through. Babies murdered in prams, unborn children blown up, young girls blown to pieces.

Growing up in my community which was under attack from some of your community I have to say. Yes I understand your problem that day but you need to just get over it. That soldiers same actions, maybe with the next car or bus, may have saved a seven year old in banbridge getting blown to pieces.

Some of you guys need to get real. Have a dig and see how many kids and babies the ira killed. They needed stopped and thank god the were and thank his god the bravery of those young men who protected us

The bigger issue I had was soldiers walking right behind me cowering as if I was a human shield for them - happened on a daily basis.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So now it’s a coach full of women?
Anyhow let me try again with you and if I patronise you then so be it as I am not sure you are getting why this would happen.

I missed the year but I am guessing it was in the troubles.
As for your trip being women; a major tactic of the ira was planting incendiary devices in department stores. Most of these came in in women’s handbags or tucked into prams etc. Many of them came along with shopping trips from the south.
That soldier would have been briefed either that day or very recently with suspects and info from informers about who to look out for. Whilst lying in the ditch he would use his rifle sights to scan the buses and cars looking for known republicans (and yes that could certainly include ira bomber women operating under the cover of a shopping trip).
So it’s completely logical to me that ha would scan along his side of the coach looking for suspects. (I do completely understand that that could appear to a young boy in the coach as threatening)

But remember the outcome of missing these bombers getting through. Babies murdered in prams, unborn children blown up, young girls blown to pieces.

Growing up in my community which was under attack from some of your community I have to say. Yes I understand your problem that day but you need to just get over it. That soldiers same actions, maybe with the next car or bus, may have saved a seven year old in banbridge getting blown to pieces.

Some of you guys need to get real. Have a dig and see how many kids and babies the ira killed. They needed stopped and thank god the were and thank his god the bravery of those young men who protected us

The British Army killed 18 children that we know about and not counting what they are alleged to have been colluding in (Dublin/Monaghan/Belturbet etc).

It is utter nonsense to suggest that the routine/daily taunting and intimidation that went on was 'just' regular ops.

ittakestwo

downcow wrote: »

Where it gets rediculous is where some posters on here try to tell me, a british person living in the uk, that I am Irish and living in the Irish nation. What’s good for the goose and all that

No but you are British living in an Irish nation. Again you wont answer why British people living in Great Britain are living within the English Welsh or Scottish nations but British people in Ireland are not living with in the Irish nation. This does not make sence and you have not explained it.

Can unionists with your views follow 6 nations rugby? What team do they support in the 6 nations? or can unionist not follow the 6 nations as they have no representation as they dont see themselves as part of the Irish nation