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What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

RyanthePirate

I would like to see a Boards.ie Consensus.

Economists agree that immigration has a net positive on the economy and this immigration is surely a wonderful thing for the county.

Agree/Disagree?

Mod:

I have updated the OP of this thread with a list of threadbanned users, I would advise posters to check on this before posting in the thread again or a forum sanction will be imposed for breaching same.

If you want to discuss your threadban feel free to PM the banning mod (or myself if you can't remember who that is and I'll point you in the right direction).

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Comments

SporadicMan

Multiculturalism in Ireland is great when it's related to European multiculturalism, or East Asian, or Indians.

Not worth it at all when it comes to African. Negatives far outweigh the positives of multiculturalism from that region.

DulchieLaois

Most cultures arrive and adapt to Irish society, nobody hears of any issues with Asians and Eastern Europeans.

The only issue are African Irish; who are making a race an issue ...if they don’t get their way; they use colour as a sidetrack to the real issues....how can anyone treat or have respect for them?

Majority of people have time and respect for anybody irrespective of where they are from but when you keep shouting from the rooftops that they are oppressed etc etc and threatens our gardai, then respect is lost.

Grow up, respect those around you, take responsibility and then life will be easier.

One eyed Jack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We're far off topic with the disabilities aspect, but I think we're in agreement. I'm not replying to everything because I feel we're moving too far from the OP, and the thread content.

The parallels in terms of investment in education and the benefits to society are obvious though in terms of their contribution to society as opposed to being hidden away from actually integrating into society.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Nor did i. I expect we'll have received between 50k - 100k migrants over the next 10 years. And considering the time required to obtain an education, get jobs, etc, they'll need to be provided for during that period.

Agreed, we are repeating the same mistakes... and making a few new ones too. I'm talking about both short, and long term negatives. The cost to the state, the duration that many of these migrants need before gaining any kind of decent employment, the increased strain on wonky systems, the failures of multicultural societies across Europe, etc.

Ireland is not Germany. It's not even the UK. It doesn't have the economy, and revenue to provide the services and supports that they could to migrants... Even they failed. Failed badly in many instances. And you expect Ireland to do better with less resources/revenue. Yup.

Oh.. and I've said repeatedly on this thread that I'm not interested in assimilation, but rather integration.. I actually know the difference.

We’ve been making the same mistakes as the rest of Europe for the last 20 years, same as we were making the same mistakes as every European country which has it’s own history of holing up the “undesirables” in society to keep them out of sight of “civilised” society. They are the people who have been left behind, and they’re still being left behind to protect this notion of keeping foreign multinational jobs for the natives, even though foreign multinationals couldn’t care less about national identity or anything else, being that they operate on a global scale. We absolutely do have the economy if we weren’t pissing it away on making a small number of “the natives” incredibly wealthy at the expense of the rest of Irish society -

In 20 years, Direct Provision has cost Ireland €1.3bn: Is there a better alternative?

You’ve argued the natives are capable of innovation, you know that we’re set to receive increased numbers of immigrants in the next 10 - 20 years, yet you’ve also argued that we don’t have the resources to accommodate them because we need to prioritise our own.

As far as I’m concerned though, there is no “our own”, especially not if you’re arguing that Irish people are in a better position in any case between our level of education, our ability to communicate only in the English language, and at the same time you speak of the “limitations of migrants” who are capable of dozens of languages, but they should be no threat whatsoever to the natives if your arguments are to be believed?

Integrating immigrants means they can contribute and pay for themselves essentially, as opposed to the idea of mass unemployment when the foreign multinationals up sticks - Irish society will be in a position where we are capable of being problem solvers and doers as opposed to being dependent upon foreign investment and loans we can never pay back to maintain the illusion of a prosperous economy to keep the natives docile.

That’s an expectation of assimilation, it’s the complete opposite of the reality which is happening of multi-cultural integration, and to wish it wasn’t happening is indeed going to lead to people starving, regardless of whether they’re natives or immigrants.

[Deleted User]

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The parallels in terms of investment in education and the benefits to society are obvious though in terms of their contribution to society as opposed to being hidden away from actually integrating into society.

If they're not getting access to Ireland, then they're not being hidden away from society.

I have said before that we need to take the existing population of migrants, educate them to a proper standard, ensure that there is employment above minimum wage, and give them the same rights as everyone else, once they've proven their ability to be a benefit to the nation. Those who fail to integrate and provide to the nation should be deported. We should be putting a halt on all immigration, except from those who have skills/education with employment sponsors, EU citizens, and genuine asylum seekers. Beyond that though, no more immigration should be allowed... until we have an established system in place that effectively provides what is needed to stop them from being a drain on society.

We’ve been making the same mistakes as the rest of Europe for the last 20 years, same as we were making the same mistakes as every European country which has it’s own history of holing up the “undesirables” in society to keep them out of sight of “civilised” society.

Keeping them out of sight? Then they've done a piss poor job of that. The mistake is not having an effective system in place to determine the worth of a migrant, evaluate their individual needs, and determining whether the cost to the state is outweighed by the potential returns. The problem is that there's been too much virtue signalling going on, combined with the attitude of throwing money at the problem, but ultimately leaving it for the next generation to fix.

They are the people who have been left behind, and they’re still being left behind to protect this notion of keeping foreign multinational jobs for the natives, even though foreign multinationals couldn’t care less about national identity or anything else, being that they operate on a global scale. We absolutely do have the economy if we weren’t pissing it away on making a small number of “the natives” incredibly wealthy at the expense of the rest of Irish society -

I never worked for a multinational in Ireland. I worked for a variety of large, and medium sized companies here, before I went abroad. The economy is not entirely based on the multinationals, nor are all the good jobs connected to them.

And you point to the wastage of resources, but seem to expect that it's going to stop, and so become available to be used for the migrants. Why would it?

You’ve argued the natives are capable of innovation, you know that we’re set to receive increased numbers of immigrants in the next 10 - 20 years, yet you’ve also argued that we don’t have the resources to accommodate them because we need to prioritise our own.

Nope. We need to deal with our own problems before bringing in more. We need to resolve the undocumented migrants in Ireland. We need to resolve those in DP. We need to resolve the issue of so many people living on or just above the minimum wage. We need to modernize, improve the efficiencies, and expand our services network. We need to prioritize those who are here already, and leave the remainder outside.

As far as I’m concerned though, there is no “our own”, especially not if you’re arguing that Irish people are in a better position in any case between our level of education, our ability to communicate only in the English language, and at the same time you speak of the “limitations of migrants” who are capable of dozens of languages, but they should be no threat whatsoever to the natives if your arguments are to be believed?

As far as I'm concerned, there is definitely our own. It's only when it comes to European nations, that nationalism, and national identity becomes a bad word. In just about every country in the world, citizens are placed ahead of foreigners. Fine. You want Ireland to be different. Grand. I don't. I want Irish people to have a country of their own, just as other nationalities do.

Being able to speak Afrikaans, French, whatever is of absolutely no value if they cannot speak English. Ireland is a predominately English speaking country.

And stop twisting ****. I've let a lot of the previous stuff slide, but enough. A threat to the natives? Perhaps I'm wrong in expecting a more comfortable debate/discussion with you. Am I?

Integrating immigrants means they can contribute and pay for themselves essentially, as opposed to the idea of mass unemployment when the foreign multinationals up sticks - Irish society will be in a position where we are capable of being problem solvers and doers as opposed to being dependent upon foreign investment and loans we can never pay back to maintain the illusion of a prosperous economy to keep the natives docile.

Those migrants need jobs that can provide them with a standard of living comparable with Irish people, and most economic refugees, do not have the educational qualifications to meet the demands for said jobs.

I'm done running in circles on this.

That’s an expectation of assimilation, it’s the complete opposite of the reality which is happening of multi-cultural integration, and to wish it wasn’t happening is indeed going to lead to people starving, regardless of whether they’re natives or immigrants.

Bloody hell. What did I state previously about assimilation versus integration?

I give up.

One eyed Jack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If they're not getting access to Ireland, then they're not being hidden away from society.

I have said before that we need to take the existing population of migrants, educate them to a proper standard, ensure that there is employment above minimum wage, and give them the same rights as everyone else, once they've proven their ability to be a benefit to the nation. Those who fail to integrate and provide to the nation should be deported. We should be putting a halt on all immigration, except from those who have skills/education with employment sponsors, EU citizens, and genuine asylum seekers. Beyond that though, no more immigration should be allowed... until we have an established system in place that effectively provides what is needed to stop them from being a drain on society.

Keeping them out of sight? Then they've done a piss poor job of that. The mistake is not having an effective system in place to determine the worth of a migrant, evaluate their individual needs, and determining whether the cost to the state is outweighed by the potential returns. The problem is that there's been too much virtue signalling going on, combined with the attitude of throwing money at the problem, but ultimately leaving it for the next generation to fix.

Migrants are getting access to Ireland though, precisely because we’re not keeping them out, but what we are doing is keeping them contained in inhumane conditions and making a small number of the natives very wealthy as a result. People are absolutely right to question whether or not the approach we’ve taken is working considering it hasn’t worked so far in Ireland, and it’s not working so well in other European countries either.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I never worked for a multinational in Ireland. I worked for a variety of large, and medium sized companies here, before I went abroad. The economy is not entirely based on the multinationals, nor are all the good jobs connected to them.

Kinda is though -

Ireland's reliance on five huge multinationals is a 'threat' to the economy

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And you point to the wastage of resources, but seem to expect that it's going to stop, and so become available to be used for the migrants. Why would it?

Ohh I’m not so naive that I expect us to stop pissing money down the drain, too many vested interests for that to happen, but what I do expect is that more investment is made in contributing to the economy as a whole, not just for the benefit of migrants, but for the benefit of the Irish economy as a whole.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Nope. We need to deal with our own problems before bringing in more. We need to resolve the undocumented migrants in Ireland. We need to resolve those in DP. We need to resolve the issue of so many people living on or just above the minimum wage. We need to modernize, improve the efficiencies, and expand our services network. We need to prioritize those who are here already, and leave the remainder outside.

We had 40 years to do that though? And we partied hard with the money we got rather than investing in the future of Irish society. I can remember being in school in the 80’s and our national debt being somewhere like €28Bn and our debt to GDP ratio then was somewhere in the region of 130%, completely unsustainable when we should have been operating around 60% to be comfortable. We’re now over €200Bn in debt and our debt to GDP ratio is somewhere around 130% again. It was one hell of a party though for a while there! Haughey would be positively pissing himself at his “living beyond our means” speech now, he hadn’t seen anything yet.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned, there is definitely our own. It's only when it comes to European nations, that nationalism, and national identity becomes a bad word. In just about every country in the world, citizens are placed ahead of foreigners. Fine. You want Ireland to be different. Grand. I don't. I want Irish people to have a country of their own, just as other nationalities do.

Being able to speak Afrikaans, French, whatever is of absolutely no value if they cannot speak English. Ireland is a predominately English speaking country.

And stop twisting ****. I've let a lot of the previous stuff slide, but enough. A threat to the natives? Perhaps I'm wrong in expecting a more comfortable debate/discussion with you. Am I?

I don’t think nationalism is bad, nor did I mean to suggest I thought anything negative of you for being concerned with our own. That’s fine, it’s just a different perspective to my own which is just a further demonstration of our differences in experiences where I’m coming from the point of view of having worked for global multinationals with people from numerous cultural backgrounds and there would have been very little in the way of English spoken, apart from dealing with US customers. Ironically enough at one point I was asked by my then employers was I interested in moving to China and I thought while I’m familiar with Mandarin, I really don’t have enough to get by. I’m interested in their culture, but I wouldn’t want to live there any more than I’d have any interest in living in Canada. It came up again recently when the company I work for now were looking for a consultant to provide support to a Chinese customer and because I wasn’t confident I could communicate with them effectively, I turned down the opportunity. It turned out an Indian chap in the office could competently communicate in Business level Mandarin. I gotta be honest I was a bit perplexed by that one :pac:

I dunno how else I was supposed to interpret pointing out all the negative aspects of immigration on the natives or how to interpret your greater concern for the welfare of the natives as though immigrants present a threat to the welfare of the natives, particularly if resources have to be spent on educating them to the same level as the natives so that everyone graduates from third level education with useless degrees and poor problem solving skills. As for their capacity with regard to their communication skills in English, I’m in no position to point fingers really, but in some cases it’s again, perplexing!

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Those migrants need jobs that can provide them with a standard of living comparable with Irish people, and most economic refugees, do not have the educational qualifications to meet the demands for said jobs.

I'm done running in circles on this.

When you say “a standard of living comparable with Irish people”, comparable with which Irish people exactly? Childcare staff on €10k living in squalor, or Consultants on €170k living in a leafy suburb? Or a salary of €35k?

Average Salary in Ireland 2021

They’re certainly capable of performing in careers at about the €35k level, should they choose to do so instead of becoming self-employed or providing employment by establishing businesses in the local community.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Bloody hell. What did I state previously about assimilation versus integration?

I give up.

You stated that you know the difference? It’s now clear that you don’t want any more immigration until we sort out the mess we’re in first (which while I don’t want to put words in your mouth, you have to know that’s not on the table?), so that’s not addressing what’s actually happening and what is going to happen in the next 10 - 20 years. Our current approach is simply unsustainable, and even if the current circumstances in which we find ourselves hadn’t happened with a global pandemic, Ireland was still well on its way towards another recession and mass unemployment regardless and people would still be looking for people to blame instead of thinking about innovating and creating sustainable economic growth based upon realistic expectations.

CtevenSrowder

Vieira82 wrote: »

Excelente argumentative capacity once again. Well AGAIN, Facts don't care about your feelings and you feeling I'm wrong doesn't mean absolute ****e to me

I'll wait patiently for actual arguments from any of you.

It's up to you back up your claim that the Gardai are racist, or wouldn't have shot you because you are white in said incident the other day. You make the claim, you back it up. Did you learn anything during your history degree? Because on this threads evidence, you clearly didn't learn much history.

Kivaro

DulchieLaois wrote: »

Most cultures arrive and adapt to Irish society, nobody hears of any issues with Asians and Eastern Europeans.

The only issue are African Irish; who are making a race an issue ...if they don’t get their way; they use colour as a sidetrack to the real issues....how can anyone treat or have respect for them?

Majority of people have time and respect for anybody irrespective of where they are from but when you keep shouting from the rooftops that they are oppressed etc etc and threatens our gardai, then respect is lost.

Grow up, respect those around you, take responsibility and then life will be easier.

It does appear that the lives for many of them, based on existing statistics and observation, appear to be fairly easy already. They don't have the same hardship and challenges (mortgage payments, early rising, long work commutes, lack of access to social welfare services and payments, health and GP costs etc. etc.) that others in this country endure.

[Deleted User]

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You stated that you know the difference? It’s now clear that you don’t want any more immigration until we sort out the mess we’re in first (which while I don’t want to put words in your mouth, you have to know that’s not on the table?), so that’s not addressing what’s actually happening and what is going to happen in the next 10 - 20 years. Our current approach is simply unsustainable, and even if the current circumstances in which we find ourselves hadn’t happened with a global pandemic, Ireland was still well on its way towards another recession and mass unemployment regardless and people would still be looking for people to blame instead of thinking about innovating and creating sustainable economic growth based upon realistic expectations.

OEJ, you seem to believe that Ireland should be able to invest in migrants to the extent that you describe, while allowing more people in add to the pile, but the suggestions I make about resolving the current problem, can't get the resources. You don't see the double standard there? I do.

And the plug about assimilation vs integration, (the third time now), that you've thrown it out in spite of my response, really bugs me.

In any case, I'm out of this discussion. I'll be taking a break from boards for a while because I'm finding myself getting too riled up by the posting styles of posters. I've always respected your pov, and usually thought you to be a reasonable poster, but the last two pages has made me feel that you're pushing crap on to me that wasn't expressed by me. It's annoying, and I honestly, can't be bothered with it.

Best of luck to everyone. Happy New Year, and all that Jazz.

Kivaro

Deleted User wrote: »

OEJ, you seem to believe that Ireland should be able to invest in migrants to the extent that you describe, while allowing more people in add to the pile, but the suggestions I make about resolving the current problem, can't get the resources. You don't see the double standard there? I do.

And the plug about assimilation vs integration, (the third time now), that you've thrown it out in spite of my response, really bugs me.

In any case, I'm out of this discussion. I'll be taking a break from boards for a while because I'm finding myself getting too riled up by the posting styles of posters. I've always respected your pov, and usually thought you to be a reasonable poster, but the last two pages has made me feel that you're pushing crap on to me that wasn't expressed by me. It's annoying, and I honestly, can't be bothered with it.

Best of luck to everyone. Happy New Year, and all that Jazz.

Happy New Year Klaz.

biko

Do your local TD know how you feel?
Let them know.

If you are unsure who it is you can find them using www.whoismyTD.com

Dyr

Deleted User wrote: »

In any case, I'm out of this discussion. I'll be taking a break from boards for a while because I'm finding myself getting too riled up by the posting styles of posters. I've always respected your pov, and usually thought you to be a reasonable poster, but the last two pages has made me feel that you're pushing crap on to me that wasn't expressed by me. It's annoying, and I honestly, can't be bothered with it.

Thats what the block feature is for

biko

If we look at Sweden then the ruling party, the Social Democrats, are kept in power only by foreign-born voters.
A majority of their voters are foreign-born. Because they know this they need to keep importing new voters.

The foreign-born population is the group that has increased - and is increasing - the most in Sweden.

https://folkbladet.se/asikter/ledare/artikel/s-har-fler-valjare-bland-invandrare-an-bland-infodda/r5yy16wj

biko

In 200 years the Sweden, and Europe, we know today won't be recognisable anymore.
And it will be parties like the Social Democrat's fault. They use your tax money to invite and pay for people to come and vote for them to stay in power. Without a major immigration the Social Democrats and their ilk would not be in power.

Jinglejangle69

biko wrote: »

In 200 years the Sweden, and Europe, we know today won't be recognisable anymore.
And it will be parties like the Social Democrat's fault. They use your tax money to invite and pay for people to come and vote for them to stay in power. Without a major immigration the Social Democrats and their ilk would not be in power.

All the left parties are culpable.

biko

The left sure as hell wouldn't be promoting immigration if the immigrants voted British National Party

One eyed Jack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

OEJ, you seem to believe that Ireland should be able to invest in migrants to the extent that you describe, while allowing more people in add to the pile, but the suggestions I make about resolving the current problem, can't get the resources. You don't see the double standard there? I do.

Our hand has already been forced is my point, and now we’re having to deal with not just the old problems, but the problems which are coming too. We know that Leo has said we will take in more migrants, we know that questions are being asked as to whether DP is providing value for money and we know politicians are looking at alternatives, because they’re now in a position where they have to, as DP has been a national embarrassment internationally. The money Government won’t be spending on DP can be used to provide resources not just for Irish citizens, but also for migrants.

I know you’re saying we put Irish people first, but I’m making the point that if people regardless of where they are from are given the same opportunities, then it’s a fair and competitive society for everyone, but there will always be people who will claim that the foreigners took their jobs and that foreigners won’t integrate. In my experience I’ve often thought of the people who argue that, why would they think immigrants should want anything to do with them? I don’t want anything to do with them, but I don’t have a choice in the matter as I have to work with them -

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Your boss appears to have already offered definitive clarification - the employer has no definitive policy on the matter. In the case you linked to, there was a definitive policy in place that the employers were able to offer legitimate justification for the policy.

For what it’s worth, from my own experience of working in large MNCs where a complaint was made that other employees were speaking in their native language, it was obvious that the employees making the complaint were more interested in getting one over on their fellow employees than any genuine interest in creating a pleasant work environment for everyone. I informed them that they are welcome to speak Irish as any other employees are welcome to converse in their native language.

Basically there was no legitimate justification for a policy demanding that all employees spoke a common language. I regarded them as adults whom one would imagine were at least capable of working it out amongst themselves without the need to micromanage any particular group to ensure another group didn’t ‘feel excluded’. Their complaints appeared to be rooted in xenophobia as opposed to having any legitimate justification.

biko

How it started

The "perps" response
https://twitter.com/PawelUczciwek/status/886529445888176128?s=20

What happened then
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7894271/Businessman-accused-trying-rip-Muslim-womans-HIJAB-Tube-assault-case-thrown-out.html

Judge called allegation 'a colossal waste of time' and apologised to Mr Uczciwek

And finally

newcavanman

biko wrote: »

In 200 years the Sweden, and Europe, we know today won't be recognisable anymore.
And it will be parties like the Social Democrat's fault. They use your tax money to invite and pay for people to come and vote for them to stay in power. Without a major immigration the Social Democrats and their ilk would not be in power.

If its the Irish Social Democrats, just imaging how many co leaders they will have by then? there will be one for everyone in the audience

McHardcore

Deleted User wrote: »

Should you not want to accept my opinion. Fine. I have little expectation that you would gracefully accept a difference in opinion, based on the manner of your responses so far.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. Given the larger amount of evidence that there is little to no link between immigration and crime in Sweden, you are correct; I would not share your opinion.

Deleted User wrote: »

In any case, I'm not very familiar with Sweden, nor do I keep up to date about their circumstances.

Yes.

Gentlemanne

SporadicMan wrote: »

Not worth it at all when it comes to African. Negatives far outweigh the positives of multiculturalism from that region.

Right wing propaganda and forum nonsense sure rots your brain when you feel confident enough to declare something like this, dismissing an entire continent of over 1.2 billion people.

Doctor Roast

McHardcore wrote: »

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. Given the larger amount of evidence that there is little to no link between immigration and crime in Sweden, you are correct; I would not share your opinion.

Yes.

Grenade attacks are up.... Mostly in the over 50 "go-go" areas...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-europe-50339977

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.eu/article/sweden-bombings-grenade-attacks-violent-reality-undoing-peaceful-self-image-law-and-order/amp/

Mike Murdock

newcavanman wrote: »

If its the Irish Social Democrats, just imaging how many co leaders they will have by then? there will be one for everyone in the audience

Well we have PBP/Solidarity and Continuity PBP/Solidarity (RISE). I'm sure Continuity PBP/Solidarity will split into another group, or groups, sooner or later.

The problem is not the parties per se. It's the "Bart's People" approach to media reporting. Not just an Irish problem, also a problem in the rest of the Western world. Many "journalists" now write more as activists than professionals in pursuit of truth. 4 years of Trumpian politics explicitly highlighted this.

An example is the The Guardian, whose tagline is, as CP Scott said, "Comment is free, but facts are sacred." Neither is true at the moment with that paper as comments are rarely allowed on opinion pieces and it continues to bleed money and is listing adrift of public opinion.

The Washington Post and NYT went to town on the Covington kid and were proved to have misreported the entire situation. Evidently on purpose or certainly by omission.

Political parties are one thing, but when the media overwhelmingly espouses the same views, then we are being force fed **** from one side of the political spectrum.

And that is not giving people a fair and balanced view of arguments.

weldoninhio

Tell me how wrote: »

The very simple answer is the benefits outweigh the negatives.

Give us a pro's and con's lists there. The pro's should massively outweigh the con's going by your statement.

TomTomTim

Gentlemanne wrote: »

Right wing propaganda and forum nonsense sure rots your brain when you feel confident enough to declare something like this, dismissing an entire continent of over 1.2 billion people.

A continent of mostly unskilled people by western standards, who will end up on the lower end of the societal scale, and be more prone to crime because of that. What I've said is completely inline with the left wing "socio economic" narrative, yet you'll probably try deny it now just to save face.

Cordell

Gentlemanne wrote: »

Right wing propaganda and forum nonsense sure rots your brain when you feel confident enough to declare something like this, dismissing an entire continent of over 1.2 billion people.

That's actually a very left wing thing to say - that is your background determines your qualities and your success in life.

Right wingers will ask to evaluate each and every one of them on their individual merits, which is exactly what right leaning people are asking, for a tighter screening of people arriving from there and a higher bar for entry.

Wibbs

McHardcore wrote: »

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. Given the larger amount of evidence that there is little to no link between immigration and crime in Sweden, you are correct; I would not share your opinion.

I had a look at your links(though some are behind a paywall so couldn't in some cases) and it's very much dependant on how one views the stats and many come from the same source repeated(after trump went on one of his usual muppet runs). Take sexual assault:

e78f4401e8488fb4052e5b6edb26a9c4e9836183

e78f4401e8488fb4052e5b6edb26a9c4e9836183

It's steadily gone up since 07, when in most countries in the west it's remained pretty static. Crime overall has gone up and people's fear of crime and not feeling safe in their neighbourhoods has also gone up. That's not up for debate so next we have to ask why.

Is it immigration, or the larger debate of multiculturalism? Well in order to downplay immigration in this we're pointed to socioeconomic forces at work and that's most certainly true. However the reports also show some immigrant demographics are more likely to end up in lower socioeconomic scales. Take Ireland where over half of the African demographic is unemployed as an example. Therefore importing lower skilled and educated immigrants will lead to a rise in numbers among the underclass and a higher occurrence of crime overall because of that. Indeed one report notes "It was more common that a victim was the child of migrants than the child of natural-born Swedes."

So we have a generational underclass going on. Something that is seen throughout the multicultural west. We're importing an underclass on top of the existing ones and an underclass whose problems tend to get worse over time.

The same report also goes on to say: Migrants are over-represented particularly in violent crimes and sexual violence.

"There are many reasons," says Professor Sarnecki. "Lower levels of education, problems with the modern, technological society, maybe even some cultural drawbacks."

Another of your links: Generally, there’s a certain over-representation of people with immigrant background in crime statistics, but that tends to be closely related to high levels of unemployment, poverty, exclusion, low language and other skills, Selin said. "Swedes with these characteristics are also overrepresented in crime statistics,

Again one can't claim non local populations are over-represented in crimes and then say nothing to see here because they're more likely to be an underclass. Again they're importing an underclass on top of their existing one.

He goes on to double down: The biggest criminological problem we have is gang violence in a few particular suburbs to our biggest cities. There was an increase in shootings – we didn't have this gun violence at all a few years ago.

"Our level of blatant violence is still much lower than other countries – the US or even Finland, but still much more than we had. These are people who came here as children or the children of immigrants. This is nothing to do with the influx of new immigrants to this country."

So because they're the next generation of immigrants leading to this new gun crime and not the newly minted migrants from Syria this means immigration isn't the problem, that multiculturalism works? If their parents hadn't been let into Sweden in the first place then Sweden would have fewer gun crimes(and sexual assaults) and a smaller underclass.

What happens with the kids of the new immigrants? More of the same going by the same stats he points to. Similar was seen in the UK. The first generation from places like Pakistan and the Caribbean tended to not show up in crime stats, but the following generations did. Well the first generation tends to be more hopeful, it's the second that realises they've been sold a pup in the form of "multicultural melting pots".

Then we get to discussions on tensions in Malmo where again they've imported an underclass that is becoming more segregated by the year. With a rise in antisemitism(I wonder where that's coming from...As a Jewish writer she has a particular perspective: her children have been the victims of anti-Semitic attacks at school from Muslim students.)

Then Integrating non-Western immigrants is a massive challenge and compared to, for example, France or Britain, the country is very early in the process. Well good luck with that. France and Britain are a few generations ahead of you and it's worse it's getting, not better. I suppose when one relies on a faith one prays even in the face of clear evidence your god of multiculturalism is a fake one.

biko

McHardcore wrote: »

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. Given the larger amount of evidence that there is little to no link between immigration and crime in Sweden, you are correct; I would not share your opinion.

That's a commendable collection of sources which kinda flies in the face of what this source is saying.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45269764

About 58% of men convicted in Sweden of rape and attempted rape over the past five years were born abroad, according to data from Swedish national TV.
Public broadcaster SVT said it had counted all court convictions to present a complete picture in Sweden.
But Sweden had thousands more reported rapes, and there is no ethnic breakdown for those..

If these men had not been invited into Sweden then almost 6 out of 10 rapes would never have happened.

And of course the Norwegian police chief that said that all recorded rapes in Oslo was done by men born abroad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7t5ZffkA0A

Wibbs

Gentlemanne wrote: »

Right wing propaganda and forum nonsense sure rots your brain when you feel confident enough to declare something like this, dismissing an entire continent of over 1.2 billion people.

I would agree. There are many qualified men and women from that continent, but they're not the ones coming here on boats across the Med, nor were landing in Ireland and becoming remarkably fecund in short order back in the early noughties. Those well educated African folks don't have to, they can just apply to move here to fill job vacancies. As quite a few have. Same for ME and Asian folks.

weldoninhio wrote: »

Give us a pro's and con's lists there. The pro's should massively outweigh the con's going by your statement.

He tried a while back. Basically pretty much all his pros were the usual exoticism and charity. Though I have found throughout and as a general thing with those in favour of exoticism pale of skin migrants from Europe don't have nearly enough of it.

Mike Murdock

Wibbs wrote: »

He tried a while back. Basically pretty much all his pros were the usual exoticism and charity. Though I have found throughout and as a general thing with those in favour of exoticism pale of skin migrants from Europe don't have nearly enough of it.

At least no "paying for our pensions" nonsense.

biko

It's usually the top part that gets mentioned because the rest is harder to define and not immediately apparent.