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Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

[Deleted User]

Is there another way of looking at it?
It’s still very, very divided, and actually seems to be getting more polarized over the last five years. It’s economy is woeful, very heavily dependent on the public sector.
Unionists are making plans to celebrate its centenary, but there seems to be very little to be happy with, certainly far less than the Republic or the rest of the UK.
No point in arguing about a border poll on this thread, but is there any possible way of looking at NI as a social, political and economic failure?

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Beltby

downcow wrote: »

What made him a ‘scummy bastard’ your eyes? Help me understand. Was it his nationality, colour, race, the fact he had a gun,
It’s not the phrase comes into my head when I see a member of the Irish army in the south. Or not even when I see someone who is in the ira - sometimes my mind would go into that territory if I knew what an individual was personally responsible for eg Martin magennis or Conor Murphy. Even then I would try to check myself from those immediate thoughts.
It seemed to flow from you with ease.

Have you ever seen a 7 year old member of the IRA?

downcow

Beltby wrote: »

Have you ever seen a 7 year old member of the IRA?

Of course not. Have you ever seen 7 year old member of the British army?
I don't understand the relevance of your question

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Of course not. Have you ever seen 7 year old member of the British army?
I don't understand the relevance of your question

The first thing any of us brought up with guns in the house ( to protect against vermin) were told is that you never, ever point a gun at anyone.
Pointing a gun at a child is not acceptable in any society.

ittakestwo

downcow wrote: »

Why not just admit either your definition was nonsense or this island can never be a nation. You can’t have it both ways

It is not my definition of the word nation. It is the definition of the word nation. There is an Irish nation that covers the whole island. There is people throughout Ireland that share similar culture and identify as Irish. Just like Scotland and England can be classified as nations.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Disingenuous separatism Francie. That would be like me telling you that you should stop trying to make yourselves Irish and different. You are part of the british isles and you artificially separated 100 years ago. You are culturally british, speak English, watch british tv and sport etc etc
Difference is that I respect your difference and embrace diversity and wouldn’t dare say that.

Nothing to do with what I said downow.

You claimed a separateness by claiming their was a uniqueness to your connection to Scotland and Britain.

There is nothing 'unique' about it on this island and vice versa. We share a 'common heritage' I am as much a part of your culture as you are of mine. Ireland is a 'nation' as per the definition. The British colonised that nation and partitioned it.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nothing to do with what I said downow.

You claimed a separateness by claiming their was a uniqueness to your connection to Scotland and Britain.

There is nothing 'unique' about it on this island and vice versa. We share a 'common heritage' I am as much a part of your culture as you are of mine. Ireland is a 'nation' as per the definition. The British colonised that nation and partitioned it.

U you put are claiming I am artificially creating a separate people in the north of this island. You can argue that, but I can argue equally that you separated the british isles by removing part of one of the islands 100 years ago.
They are circular arguments.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

The first thing any of us brought up with guns in the house ( to protect against vermin) were told is that you never, ever point a gun at anyone.
Pointing a gun at a child is not acceptable in any society.

I would not agree with your analogy of controlling vermin. Yes the ira were vermin but I think that analogy of yours goes further and dehumanises them. Though I understand why you make the analogy.

As for the reference to 7 year olds, I have no idea why he talked about 7 year old ira men.

There is also a huge misunderstanding about pointing rifles. I experienced rifles pointed at me often in ni, but they were in the hands of trained soldiers who were trying to protect the community. The rifle sights were used like binoculars thereby meaning the rifle was pointed at whoever the soldier was looking at. I never felt threatened by this action as I understood what they were doing

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

U you put are claiming I am artificially creating a separate people in the north of this island. You can argue that, but I can argue equally that you separated the british isles by removing part of one of the islands 100 years ago.
They are circular arguments.

No downcow...that just makes you sound uninformed and a tad desperate.

The definition of a nation given was: a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.”

That is what we are: common descent, many many of us are of Scottish as well as of other origins - we have a common history - we have a common culture - we have common languages - and we inhabit an island called Ireland.

Sorry for your troubles but you can complain until the cows come home about it, doesn't change the facts, I'm afraid.

pixelburp

Lord, so now we've reached the "well you started it" point of the "discussion"; can't be the only one finding the tit-for-tat blather between Francie and downcow utterly tedious, so I'm peacing out of this once interesting debate. The attempts to get the last word in is quite desperate TBH.

But it takes some ballsy levels of selective historical reading to see the Republic's forming as anything other than a reaction to what could - at BEST - be described as mishandled rule by the British establishment (to the point of causing near-genocidal famine after decades of punitive treatment of the predominant religion on the island). You can debate into the long night the exact levels of responsibility the Free State shares during the Partition of this island, but once done, the primary fault of Northern Ireland's calamitous and tragic history can be put on the shoulders of Westminister and the prime power holders in NI ... ... which is / was Unionism. While their attempts to distance themselves from a shared Irish identity for the non-existence "British" one ultimately self-defeating once power sharing came to pass.

FrancieBrady

pixelburp wrote: »

Lord, so now we've reached the "well you started it" point of the "discussion"; can't be the only one finding the tit-for-tat blather between Francie and downcow utterly tedious, so I'm peacing out of this once interesting debate. The attempts to get the last word in is quite desperate TBH.

But it takes some ballsy levels of selective historical reading to see the Republic's forming as anything other than a reaction to what could - at BEST - be described as mishandled rule by the British establishment (to the point of causing near-genocidal famine after decades of punitive treatment of the predominant religion on the island). You can debate into the long night the exact levels of responsibility the Free State shares during the Partition of this island, but once done, the primary fault of Northern Ireland's calamitous and tragic history can be put on the shoulders of Westminister and the prime power holders in NI ... ... which is / was Unionism. While their attempts to distance themselves from a shared Irish identity for the non-existence "British" one ultimately self-defeating once power sharing came to pass.

I scroll past irrelevant and tedious stuff myself pixel. It's in the eye of the beholder I find.

Sorry to bore you.:)

ittakestwo

downcow wrote: »

U you put are claiming I am artificially creating a separate people in the north of this island. You can argue that, but I can argue equally that you separated the british isles by removing part of one of the islands 100 years ago.
They are circular arguments.

The nation of Ireland still remains even tho it is split between two sovereign countries. A nation does not equal a sovereign country. If that was the case then neither England Scotland or Wales would be nations.

For instance the patron Saint of the nation of Ireland is St Patrick and therefore is The patron saint of ROI and NI as both or within the nation of Ireland. The nation of Ireland is made up of 32 counties and so on.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I would not agree with your analogy of controlling vermin. Yes the ira were vermin but I think that analogy of yours goes further and dehumanises them. Though I understand why you make the analogy.

Down here DC, vermin are pigeons (who attack fields of grain) and foxes and dogs that attack sheep and chickens). Most farmers would have a shot gun to deal with this and they need a licence to do so.

As for the reference to 7 year olds, I have no idea why he talked about 7 year old ira men.

I think you are telling porkies DC!

There is also a huge misunderstanding about pointing rifles. I experienced rifles pointed at me often in ni, but they were in the hands of trained soldiers who were trying to protect the community. The rifle sights were used like binoculars thereby meaning the rifle was pointed at whoever the soldier was looking at. I never felt threatened by this action as I understood what they were doing

Well, you of course were part of the community that they were protecting. The BA have been recruiting 16 year olds who are low achiever school leavers and handing them guns. What happened to these well trained soldiers on Derry Bloody Sunday - were they acting on their shoot to kill orders?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No downcow...that just makes you sound uninformed and a tad desperate.

The definition of a nation given was: a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.”

That is what we are: common descent, many many of us are of Scottish as well as of other origins - we have a common history - we have a common culture - we have common languages - and we inhabit an island called Ireland.

Sorry for your troubles but you can complain until the cows come home about it, doesn't change the facts, I'm afraid.

Haha. Nice one Francie. You just introduced ‘island’ to the definition because you are so infatuated about some islands (but not all) and it is all you have to cling on to.

I never really claimed ni was a nation, but read your definition again and it seems OWC is a nation. I love it.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Haha. Nice one Francie. You just introduced ‘island’ to the definition because you are so infatuated about some islands (but not all) and it is all you have to cling on to.

I never really claimed ni was a nation, but read your definition again and it seems OWC is a nation. I love it.

Unless this island is called something other than 'Ireland' then I have no idea what you have pivoted to now.

omegaodie

This thread is very unconstructive what we need are concrete ideas, like buying wrote off cars in Ireland for cheap, then buying working ones in the UK switching the plates and selling them on minus the import tax/duty/whatever.

Granadino

Brian Hanley's book on the impact of the troubles in the south is worth a read. It does give an interesting outlook as to how we viewed what was going on up north.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Unless this island is called something other than 'Ireland' then I have no idea what you have pivoted to now.

It was simple until you started calling the 26 counties Ireland instead of ROI. now I am not sure what the island is called anymore.

But the point was that the definition referred to territory which the 32 counties definitely is not

ELM327

downcow wrote: »

It was simple until you started calling the 26 counties Ireland instead of ROI. now I am not sure what the island is called anymore.

But the point was that the definition referred to territory which the 32 counties definitely is not

Ireland is the name of the island, and NI/ROI are the current names of the two british created entities established in 1921.

FrancieBrady

ELM327 wrote: »

Ireland is the name of the island, and NI/ROI are the current names of the two british created entities established in 1921.

Partition divided the 'nation' into two different political jurisdictions. Downcow is in denial of this. But then that is the default position of belligerent Unionism.

ittakestwo

Ireland was always a nation. Even when part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland we were a nation. The British never tried to pretend Ireland was not a nation. This denying of the nation of Ireland seems to be invented by some unionists in NI as they see the nation of Ireland as a threat. It is quite sad. I remember a few years back when Ireland needed to win its last 6 nations match to win the title and Arlene Foster tweeted "come on Rory Best and his team" could not even say come on Ireland as to cheer Ireland in one unified way is scandalous. How sad.

ELM327

ittakestwo wrote: »

Ireland was always a nation. Even when part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland we were a nation. The British never tried to pretend Ireland was not a nation. This denying of the nation of Ireland seems to be invented by some unionists in NI as they see the nation of Ireland as a threat. It is quite sad. I remember a few years back when Ireland needed to win its last 6 nations match to win the title and Arlene Foster tweeted "come on Rory Best and his team" could not even say come on Ireland as to cheer Ireland in one unified way is scandalous. How sad.

But yet in the south, Rory with his unionism was welcomed as the captain of our rugby team with open arms.

We were always a nation, until British interference stopped it.
This brexit nonsense (where NI as a region voted against it, along with the scots) will actually bring about a UI a lot faster than before.
There's precedence too, that reunification will allow the new reunified nation reentry to the EU - like Germany in 1990

ittakestwo

ELM327 wrote: »

But yet in the south, Rory with his unionism was welcomed as the captain of our rugby team with open arms.

We were always a nation, until British interference stopped it.
This brexit nonsense (where NI as a region voted against it, along with the scots) will actually bring about a UI a lot faster than before.
There's precedence too, that reunification will allow the new reunified nation reentry to the EU - like Germany in 1990

They did not stop it. It still exists. Has always existed and the Brits always recognised Ireland as a nation. The partion into two jurisdictions did not stop the nation either. Still exists.

[Deleted User]

Did the Wolfe Tones get it wrong with "A Nation Once Again"?:D

jm08

jh79 wrote: »

Did the Wolfe Tones get it wrong with "A Nation Once Again"?:D

You mean did Thomas Davis get it wrong (who wrote it in 1844).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Nation_Once_Again

Note John McCormack, The Clancy Brothers, The Dubliners as well as the Irish Tenors have all recorded that song as well as the Wolfe Tones.

downcow

ELM327 wrote: »

Ireland is the name of the island, and NI/ROI are the current names of the two british created entities established in 1921.

I understood Britain had created the entity of the British Isles. I thought it was the Irish government chose to break away and facilitated the partition of the island with the support of the Stormont government.

I think you're being a little economical with the truth there.

I also think you may be mistaken about the official name of the 26 counties. I know expert on my neighbouring country but I understand it to be called the Republic of Ireland.

Would anybody care to confirm or otherwise what I am saying?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I understood Britain had created the entity of the British Isles. I thought it was the Irish government chose to break away and facilitated the partition of the island with the support of the Stormont government.

I think you're being a little economical with the truth there.

I also think you may be mistaken about the official name of the 26 counties. I know expert on my neighbouring country but I understand it to be called the Republic of Ireland.

Would anybody care to confirm or otherwise what I am saying?

Contrary to Unionist beliefs, history did not start 100 years ago with a political act.
Nobody is talking about political administrations but you downcow.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Partition divided the 'nation' into two different political jurisdictions. Downcow is in denial of this. But then that is the default position of belligerent Unionism.

Francie, as so often you take a fairly hypocritical approach.

If you are suggesting that the island is a nation, and that the majority of people to the north of that nation that themselves to be of a different identity/culture/etc and divided nation; then this is exactly what Ireland did to the British nation which consisted of a series of islands, when they requested independence for a number of the islands

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Contrary to Unionist beliefs, history did not start 100 years ago with a political act.
Nobody is talking about political administrations but you downcow.

Francie, greater numbers does not make you and your mates correct.
Your whole argument about the island is a nation because it is an island, falls down when you do not apply it to all islands on the globe.

As for JM08 he has resorted to quoting a song as having more credibility than the United Nations haha

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie, as so often you take a fairly hypocritical approach.

If you are suggesting that the island is a nation, and that the majority of people to the north of that nation that themselves to be of a different identity/culture/etc and divided nation; then this is exactly what Ireland did to the British nation which consisted of a series of islands, when they requested independence for a number of the islands

People who identified as British have lived all over this 'island' downcow for centuries. They are a part of mine and your culture. We intermixed for milenia, therefore have common heritage. This island has a distinct language and cultural activity.

Sorry to disappoint again.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

People who identified as British have lived all over this 'island' downcow for centuries. They are a part of mine and your culture. We intermixed for milenia, therefore have common heritage. This island has a distinct language and cultural activity.

Sorry to disappoint again.

The Island speaks English, watches Eastenders and follows Man Utd. haha what planet (never mind island) are you on.
Francie is an island