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Is Ulster Scots a language?

Kermit.de.frog

Now, I don't know about anyone else and maybe I'm seeing things but look at that. I mean at least Irish has the characteristics of a distinct language. The Ulster Scots part looks like a distortion of English?

I'm open to persuasion.

Is it a distinct "language" worthy of the investment or an odd attempt to engineer differences from "the natives" by some unionists?

It looks, at best, like a dialect.

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[Deleted User]

More an accent than a language.

ted1

It’s like drunk English

Leg End Reject

[quote="bocaman;115692868
Suddenly Unionism had a culture which wasn't replica English.[/quote]

Is this a new language?

Snickers Man

The Snickers Man test for whether a mode of speech is a language or not: it's all down to the reaction a non-native speaker will encounter if they try to use it.

Example:
Take your average 21st century Dubliner, complete with a standard accent, somewhere between "Ag gerrup the yaard, ya bowsie" and "Gaying dane tane on the Dort". Of reasonable intelligence, he went to a decent public school and learned French until the Leaving.

On holiday in France, he wants to send some post cards home (because his aged parents don't do social media) and is looking for a post office. So he stops a local in the street and says: "Excusez-moi, Monsieur. Je cherche un Bureau de Poste. Savez-vous est-ce qu'il y'en a un pres d'ici?"

The Frenchman will immediately know that this guy is not a native speaker but assuming that he possesses a modicum of basic courtesy (not a given for a Frenchman, right enough) one might expect that he would reply: "Bien sur! Suivez ce-route ci et prenez le deuxieme tournee a gauche."
"Merci beaucoup, Monsieur"
"Ce n'est rien"

Now that's example of a separate language.

Now try the same experiment with the same Dub in Ballymena. He stops a local in the street and says "What about ye, hi? Ah'm fer the Post Office so y'am, but I dinnae ken the road. G'on show us, hi"

What do you reckon the reaction would be?
(Hint: don't try it)

That's an example of a pretentious "code switch". Separate language, my arse!

Peregrinus

trashcan wrote: »

That sums up th difference between the two quite succinctly I think. A native English speaker would have no trouble getting the general gist of the Ulster Scots notice, whereas the Irish one, you genuinely would not have a clue.

Yeah, but Irish and English are not just two distinct languages; they are from two wholly distinct language families. Two languages can be much closer to one another than Irish and English are, and still be two distinct languages. Two related languages being mutually intelligible is common; nobody suggests that this means that they can't be considered as two languages.

So "is it mutually intelligible with English?" is not a usefel test to determine whether something is a distinct language from English or not. Scots is (with a bit of effort) mutually intelligible with English, but has long been regarded as a distinct language.

To my mind, the more challenging question is not "is Ulster Scots a separate lanaguage from English?" but "is Ulster Scots a separate language from Scots?"

un5byh7sqpd2x0

Peregrinus wrote: »

Yeah, but Irish and English are not just two distinct languages; they are from two wholly distinct language families. Two languages can be much closer to one another than Irish and English are, and still be two distinct languages. Two related languages being mutually intelligible is common; nobody suggests that this means that they can't be considered as two languages.

So "is it mutually intelligible with English?" is not a usefel test to determine whether something is a distinct language from English or not. Scots is (with a bit of effort) mutually intelligible with English, but has long been regarded as a distinct language.

To my mind, the more challenging question is not "is Ulster Scots a separate lanaguage from English?" but "is Ulster Scots a separate language from Scots?"

Indeed, I’ve personally witnessed an Italian person speaking Italian to a Spanish person speaking Spanish - admittedly slower than normal - and each understanding the other more or less.

StupidLikeAFox

"Get ahauld o yer LMF....."

Can't believe they are claiming this is a different language!

Larbre34

No, its English with a bit of made up nonsense that kids might include in a joke language they make up and use to communicate with some (they think) privacy.

Its been given a very false equivalence with Gaeilge on the basis that 'themmuns shouldn't have anything ussuns don't have', and at the end of the day is being promoted by the tradition of a 'protestant parliament for a protestant people', apartheid loving, gerrymandering b@stards.

Here endeth the definitive lesson on so-called Ulster Scots.

[Deleted User]

Even calling it a dialect is generous.

Canis Lupus

pidgin english

Lucy8080

Peregrinus wrote: »

Yeah, but "is Ulster Scots a separate language from Scots?"

Look, for all our sakes, can we all agree that we can class ourselves as multilingual?

It looks great on a C.V. ! Throw in a "Cupla Focal".

If an interviewer doubts the C.V., (three languages ), we can sue the arse off them!

Mimon

Canis Lupus wrote: »

pidgin english

Nah. It has a separate lineage to English having branched off from modern English's ancestor a long time ago.

Unfortunately the DUP etc have turned it into a political weapon which makes many on here biased against it. Lots of pretty uneducated and ignorant comments in this thread.

fonecrusher1

Male Toilets
Leithris na bhFear
Och aye mens sh!tter's ofer ther pal
Kla'a puchpa''e' (Klingon)

pickarooney

Peregrinus wrote: »

Yeah, but Irish and English are not just two distinct languages; they are from two wholly distinct language families. Two languages can be much closer to one another than Irish and English are, and still be two distinct languages. Two related languages being mutually intelligible is common; nobody suggests that this means that they can't be considered as two languages.

So "is it mutually intelligible with English?" is not a usefel test to determine whether something is a distinct language from English or not. Scots is (with a bit of effort) mutually intelligible with English, but has long been regarded as a distinct language.

To my mind, the more challenging question is not "is Ulster Scots a separate lanaguage from English?" but "is Ulster Scots a separate language from Scots?"

You can't say 'nobody'. There's a lot of debate over whether Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian are different languages. Written Danish and Norwegian are functionally the same language. Urdu and Hindi are considered as one by many. Nobody really considers Dutch and Flemish as distinct yet within Flanders some dialects have limited mutual intelligibility. Even in Irish, Donegal and Munster varieties are dissimilar enough to be at times incomprehensible for a non-native.

There's invariably a political angle in distinguishing between accents, dialects and languages.

Snickers Man

I'm wary about believing every "anecdote" I hear concerning controversies like this, but is it true or can anyone confirm that the official Ulster Scots term for "special needs children" is Wee Dafties?

The J Stands for Jay

Snickers Man wrote: »

I'm wary about believing every "anecdote" I hear concerning controversies like this, but is it true or can anyone confirm that the official Ulster Scots term for "special needs children" is Wee Dafties?

I heard this one years ago, and I have a vague recollection of looking into it and it not being true.

FanadMan

There's an area near where I live here in Donegal. It's mostly Protestant farmers (ancestry from NI). The majority of them seem to speak some sort of version of Ulster Scots - cow is coo, now is noo etc. Hearing them talking among themselves is strange. But when they talk to you, a lot of the US disappears and it's normal English apart from a word or two.

[Deleted User]

Can anybody point to an official document written in Ulster Scots, I assume that the GFA was written in it? Anything else?

The J Stands for Jay

pickarooney wrote: »

Even in Irish, Donegal and Munster varieties are dissimilar enough to be at times incomprehensible for a non-native.

This is an accent thing. The language barrier is still there in English (flashback to acting as translator for a lad from Derry and a lad from Kerry at 5am at a Spanish music festival).

COVID

Mimon wrote: »

Nah. It has a separate lineage to English having branched off from modern English's ancestor a long time ago.

Unfortunately the DUP etc have turned it into a political weapon which makes many on here biased against it. Lots of pretty uneducated and ignorant comments in this thread.

A language being used as a political weapon, eh.
Who would've thunk it?

fonecrusher1

COVID wrote: »

A language being used as a political weapon, eh.
Who would've thunk it?

Even beyond the obvious political agenda its a load of oul rubbish. If Uslter Scots is a separate language / dialect so is Dublinese, Corkonian, Galwegian. With this logic where does the silliness end? :rolleyes:

Peregrinus

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Even beyond the obvious political agenda its a load of oul rubbish. If Uslter Scots is a separate language / dialect so is Dublinese, Corkonian, Galwegian. With this logic where does the silliness end? :rolleyes:

Well, that's not really logic, though, is it? Your thesis is that if any two linguistic variants can be taken to be separate languages, then all linguistic variants can be taken to be separate languages. But it's your thesis that's silly here.

We've got distinct languages (e.g. French and Italian); we've got distinct dialects of a language (e.g. Neapolitan, Venetian, Sicilian, Tuscan) and we've got distinct variants of a language (e.g. US English, British English and Hiberno-English). We have these distinct categories — language, dialect, variant — because they are meaningful and useful; this isn't inconsistent with the fact that the borders between then can be fairly blurry.

You can certainly debatge whether Ulster Scots is a separate language from (a) English or (b) Scots. But the debate isn't settled by pointing out that English as spoken in Dublin is different from English as spoken in Cork, and yet they are not considered separate languages. That isn't really relevant.

Junkyard Tom

COVID wrote: »

A language being used as a political weapon, eh.
Who would've thunk it?

As millions-and-millions of native peoples' historic experience of gun-point colonialism attests.

fonecrusher1

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, that's not really logic, though, is it? Your thesis is that if any two linguistic variants can be taken to be separate languages, then all linguistic variants can be taken to be separate languages. But it's your thesis that's silly here.

We've got distinct languages (e.g. French and Italian); we've got distinct dialects of a language (e.g. Neapolitan, Venetian, Sicilian, Tuscan) and we've got distinct variants of a language (e.g. US English, British English and Hiberno-English). We have these distinct categories — language, dialect, variant — because they are meaningful and useful; this isn't inconsistent with the fact that the borders between then can be fairly blurry.

You can certainly debatge whether Ulster Scots is a separate language from (a) English or (b) Scots. But the debate isn't settled by pointing out that English as spoken in Dublin is different from English as spoken in Cork, and yet they are not considered separate languages. That isn't really relevant.

Lets stick to the point of the thread. So you think Ulster Scots qualifies as a separate language then in the context of NI and is not at all part of a political agenda?

Peregrinus

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Lets stick to the point of the thread. So you think Ulster Scots qualifies as a separate language then in the context of NI and is not at all part of a political agenda?

Both the view that it is a distinct language and the view that it is not can be part of a political agenda. obviously.

My own view: I'd defer to professional academic linguists and the classifications they favour. For what it's worth - which may not be very much - I'm dubious that Ulster Scots can be regarded as a language distinct from Scots. But I'm much more open to the suggestion that it's distinct from English, if only because Scots is widely recognised as a language distinct from English, and Ulster Scots, if not a actually a variant of Scots, is certainly very close to Scots.

feargale

From the BBC today (or yesterday?):

Ulster-Scots poet James Fenton, described as the language's "greatest exponent", has died at the age of 89.

The Hamely Tongue, his record of spoken Ulster-Scots, has come to be regarded as the language's definitive lexicon.

His Ulster-Scots poetry collections, published in the 2000s, went on to receive international acclaim.

Frank Ferguson of Ulster University said Mr Fenton's contribution to the language is one "of towering significance".

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Menfowk / Weeminfowk lavatries...?

I think someone is taking the piss here, OP...

Capt'n Midnight

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Menfowk / Weeminfowk lavatries...?

I think someone is taking the piss here, OP...

You may already be speaking Ulster Scots without even realising it.

Remember Ulster Scots is written phonetically so speak those words out loud in an Ulster Scots accent before you rule out the possibility that you have already been assimilated.

The following list of 67 everyday words shows how English, Ulster-English dialect and Ulster-Scots are different from each other. In particular, note how the first 22 are Scots words used in everyday speech throughout Ulster. The rest identify words used only in Ulster-Scots. These last 45 words can be used as markers of Ulster-Scots speech and literature. If, for example, you often hear (and sometimes use) less than 20 of this entire list, your experience of Ulster-Scots is very limited. If, however, you often hear and sometimes use more than half (33) of the words on this list, you are already part of the Ulster-Scots speaking community.

RobMc59

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Menfowk / Weeminfowk lavatries...?

I think someone is taking the piss here, OP...

I thought Scottish for toilet was cludgy.

jmlad2020

If Ulster Scott's is a language then so should Shakespearian English beith also.

O farewell honeft fouldier, who hath releeved you

Joke language. Up the Gaeilge