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Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

[Deleted User]

Is there another way of looking at it?
It’s still very, very divided, and actually seems to be getting more polarized over the last five years. It’s economy is woeful, very heavily dependent on the public sector.
Unionists are making plans to celebrate its centenary, but there seems to be very little to be happy with, certainly far less than the Republic or the rest of the UK.
No point in arguing about a border poll on this thread, but is there any possible way of looking at NI as a social, political and economic failure?

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Beltby

downcow wrote: »

What made him a ‘scummy bastard’ your eyes? Help me understand. Was it his nationality, colour, race, the fact he had a gun,
It’s not the phrase comes into my head when I see a member of the Irish army in the south. Or not even when I see someone who is in the ira - sometimes my mind would go into that territory if I knew what an individual was personally responsible for eg Martin magennis or Conor Murphy. Even then I would try to check myself from those immediate thoughts.
It seemed to flow from you with ease.

Have you ever seen a 7 year old member of the IRA?

downcow

Beltby wrote: »

Yeah, almost 40 years ago I went up to jonesboro on a shopping trip with my mother, aunt and nanny. It was a miserable morning, and while we were stopped at the border, I noticed something shifting in a ditch beside us. It was only a British soldier with his rifle pointing straight at me, the scummy bastard. I was about 7 at the time.

What made him a ‘scummy bastard’ your eyes? Help me understand. Was it his nationality, colour, race, the fact he had a gun,
It’s not the phrase comes into my head when I see a member of the Irish army in the south. Or not even when I see someone who is in the ira - sometimes my mind would go into that territory if I knew what an individual was personally responsible for eg Martin magennis or Conor Murphy. Even then I would try to check myself from those immediate thoughts.
It seemed to flow from you with ease.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It doesn't...British heritage is ultra common across the island. As I said, my grandfather was British.

It is YOU guys who have unsuccessfully tried desperately to make yourselves a breed apart(the Ulster Scots nonsense)..you aren't really though.

Disingenuous separatism Francie. That would be like me telling you that you should stop trying to make yourselves Irish and different. You are part of the british isles and you artificially separated 100 years ago. You are culturally british, speak English, watch british tv and sport etc etc
Difference is that I respect your difference and embrace diversity and wouldn’t dare say that.

downcow

ittakestwo wrote: »

When looking at Great Britain is it complicated. The whole British nation covers all of the island of GB. But the Scottish, English and welsh nations only cover thoses respective areas. Only difference with Ireland is the British nation just crosses NI while nation of Ireland covers all of the island.

Why not just admit either your definition was nonsense or this island can never be a nation. You can’t have it both ways

Beltby

Granadino wrote: »

Before my time but remember the shopping trips people used to take up north? Was it to avail of cheaper produce or shops we didn’t have down south?
I remember when I started uni in 95, the northern students used to have different labels we couldn’t buy down in Munster. Maybe Dublin had them !

Yeah, almost 40 years ago I went up to jonesboro on a shopping trip with my mother, aunt and nanny. It was a miserable morning, and while we were stopped at the border, I noticed something shifting in a ditch beside us. It was only a British soldier with his rifle pointing straight at me, the scummy bastard. I was about 7 at the time.

Granadino

Before my time but remember the shopping trips people used to take up north? Was it to avail of cheaper produce or shops we didn’t have down south?
I remember when I started uni in 95, the northern students used to have different labels we couldn’t buy down in Munster. Maybe Dublin had them !

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Well that’s ok. I can accept that the Irish and British nations have a complicated existence in ni, but it blows that definition out of the water

It doesn't...British heritage is ultra common across the island. As I said, my grandfather was British.

It is YOU guys who have unsuccessfully tried desperately to make yourselves a breed apart(the Ulster Scots nonsense)..you aren't really though.

ittakestwo

downcow wrote: »

Well that’s ok. I can accept that the Irish and British nations have a complicated existence in ni, but it blows that definition out of the water

When looking at Great Britain is it complicated. The whole British nation covers all of the island of GB. But the Scottish, English and welsh nations only cover thoses respective areas. Only difference with Ireland is the British nation just crosses NI while nation of Ireland covers all of the island.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

One million me arse. There are plenty of Unionists who consider themselves Irish or N. Irish. Unionist rejection of their Irishness came with partition and will wither away and die when it ends. You're welcome to be part of the Irish nation and if you choose not to then it's your loss.

Junkyard Tom with an ultimatum that only an inclusive guy like him could come up with haha

downcow

ittakestwo wrote: »

Ireland is a nation and always has been. People throughout Ireland identify as Irish and share culture which makes it a nation by definition. Btw that does not mean that the british nation does not also cover the north of Ireland. Irish and British nations cross at NI. It is like a Venn diagram. But there is no NI nation.

Well that’s ok. I can accept that the Irish and British nations have a complicated existence in ni, but it blows that definition out of the water

Capt'n Midnight

pixelburp wrote: »

Is there an explanation for the high public service employment in NI? It's often mentioned as being especially high and a potential burden come United Ireland. But how did it happen to be this way, seems curious any state would allow that kind of runaway public sector - especially with a sequence of Tory governments (the current one particularly) and a historical hatred of all things Public.

Not sure if was a way to reduce unemployment or part of the peace dividend.

But there's been very few new people in years. So in a UI numbers would drop as people retire.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

you would have one million people who sit outside your cosy monoculture monoidentity aspiration

One million me arse. There are plenty of Unionists who consider themselves Irish or N. Irish. Unionist rejection of their Irishness came with partition and will wither away and die when it ends. You're welcome to be part of the Irish nation and if you choose not to then it's your loss.

ittakestwo

downcow wrote: »

According to you definition of a nation, you could disregard all the small minorities and make a claim that Roi is a nation, but there is no way your definition fits in a whole island approach. As you say it is many more than one million who don’t fit your criteria.
Your measure, not mine. Lol

Ireland is a nation and always has been. People throughout Ireland identify as Irish and share culture which makes it a nation by definition. Btw that does not mean that the british nation does not also cover the north of Ireland. Irish and British nations cross at NI. It is like a Venn diagram. But there is no NI nation.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Arlene Foster trialing the DUP strategy on Andrew Marr there...if asked 'is there a border between NI and Britain' just deny it. Even when the checks are listed out to you, smile wryly and deny.

Francie I didn’t see it but I agree 100% with you. I think the DUP are in very serious trouble going forward on this. I know loads of DUP voters who are saying loud and clear the will never vote again for them. Indeed many are saying they will never vote again which is concerning for us all

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Very admirable of you Francie to come in behind him on a beaten docket. A martyr.

.......but here is what he said (not me) “The meaning of a nation is.
a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.”

That’s some stretch with a hoard of Ulster Scots in your midst. Hahaha

There are people of Scottish decent all over this island downcow, my mum's dad was a Glaswegian.

You have designated a particular sect and taken that as making you distinct...it really isn't a distinction, it is something you have in common with me.

UDAWINNER

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Arlene Foster trialing the DUP strategy on Andrew Marr there...if asked 'is there a border between NI and Britain' just deny it. Even when the checks are listed out to you, smile wryly and deny.

also says nationists wanted a no deal brexit which is completely false. She and the Conservatives have said in the past that a no deal is better than a bad deal. Typical Unionist, always blame someone else.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You are a part of the culture of this island downcow, whether you like it or not.

The island is called Ireland.
You can elect to be a separatist all you wish, but that won't change the fact for good bad or evil you are as much a part of this culture as I am.

Very admirable of you Francie to come in behind him on a beaten docket. A martyr.

.......but here is what he said (not me) “The meaning of a nation is.
a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.”

That’s some stretch with a hoard of Ulster Scots in your midst. Hahaha

downcow

ittakestwo wrote: »

I didnt write the link. I am quoting the link. Ask the author to their methodology.

You are the one made the claim that 90+% of kids in ni are in segregated education. Surely you don’t believe everything you read on the internet.

You say nothing has changed.
The school I attended has 1000 pupils. In the 70s when I was there there were no more than 10 Catholics attending, today there are about 300 ie 30%. This is replicated in many state schools across ni.
You are making the mistake of thinking The official integrated schools are integrated and that the state schools are not. My nearest officially ‘integrated school’ is 95% catholic while My nearest state school is less than 70% Protestant.

But let’s take your measure again. You see what’s interesting is that about 50% of kids in ni attend denominationally run schools (almost all RC) while in Roi that figure is much much higher. So you, who has probably had no choice in Roi but to attend a segregated school, should know the phrase ‘take the beam out of your own eye before trying to get the speck out of your brothers’.

You see brother, the problem is that people in ROI don’t even recognise they have a problem, and enjoy pointing out the issues in the more diverse ni.

Have a long think before coming out with prejudiced nonsense again

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

According to you definition of a nation, you could disregard all the small minorities and make a claim that Roi is a nation, but there is no way your definition fits in a whole island approach. As you say it is many more than one million who don’t fit your criteria.
Your measure, not mine. Lol

You are a part of the culture of this island downcow, whether you like it or not.

The island is called Ireland.
You can elect to be a separatist all you wish, but that won't change the fact for good bad or evil you are as much a part of this culture as I am.

downcow

ittakestwo wrote: »

Regardless of a UI there is an Irish nation covering all of the island. .

NI is not a nation. Most people there say thier British. Then the next identify is Irish. NI identification is the a minority. NI It is not a nation.

According to you definition of a nation, you could disregard all the small minorities and make a claim that Roi is a nation, but there is no way your definition fits in a whole island approach. As you say it is many more than one million who don’t fit your criteria.
Your measure, not mine. Lol

ittakestwo

downcow wrote: »

So let’s examine your definition of nation

“The meaning of a nation is.

a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.”

Would you agree then that if the island was united then it definitely would not be a nation by your measure, as you would have one million people who sit outside your cosy monoculture monoidentity aspiration, not to mention the endless other minorities. Would you agree???
God save us from nations if that is what they are.

Your simplistic nonsense doesn’t work in a complex diverse society like OWC

Regardless of a UI there is an Irish nation covering all of the island. .

NI is not a nation. Most people there say thier British. Then the next identify is Irish. NI identification is the a minority. NI It is not a nation.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So let’s examine your definition of nation

“The meaning of a nation is.

a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.”

Would you agree then that if the island was united then it definitely would not be a nation by your measure, as you would have one million people who sit outside your cosy monoculture monoidentity aspiration, not to mention the endless other minorities. Would you agree???
God save us from nations if that is what they are.

Your simplistic nonsense doesn’t work in a complex diverse society like OWC

You never did define what was different about your culture downcow?
Plenty of orange or protestant people in the south, plenty descended from Scottish roots too. It isn't the sole preserve of the 'million' you lay claim to as something different.

ittakestwo

downcow wrote: »

Don’t ignore the question. I asked you how you how you were measuring/defining segregated education? Simple question

It was the basis of your post so not unreasonable to ask what you mean

I didnt write the link. I am quoting the link. Ask the author to their methodology.

downcow

ittakestwo wrote: »

So the link above is biased and not factual? You might be used to segregation and see it as normal but people looking from the outside in can see the huge problems in NI. Look even how Covid is turning into a green/orange issue. The North is still a very segrated place. 5.5 meter walls segregating residential areas is not normal.

It is laughable when you refer to NI as a nation. The meaning of a nation is.

a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.

One thing NI is not is a nation. It is a very segrated territory that will cause headaches to ever has to administer it.

So let’s examine your definition of nation

“The meaning of a nation is.

a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.”

Would you agree then that if the island was united then it definitely would not be a nation by your measure, as you would have one million people who sit outside your cosy monoculture monoidentity aspiration, not to mention the endless other minorities. Would you agree???
God save us from nations if that is what they are.

Your simplistic nonsense doesn’t work in a complex diverse society like OWC

downcow

ittakestwo wrote: »

So the link above is biased and not factual? You might be used to segregation and see it as normal but people looking from the outside in can see the huge problems in NI. Look even how Covid is turning into a green/orange issue. The North is still a very segrated place. 5.5 meter walls segregating residential areas is not normal.

It is laughable when you refer to NI as a nation. The meaning of a nation is.

a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.

One thing NI is not is a nation. It is a very segrated territory that will cause headaches to ever has to administer it.

Don’t ignore the question. I asked you how you how you were measuring/defining segregated education? Simple question

It was the basis of your post so not unreasonable to ask what you mean

ittakestwo

downcow wrote: »

What is worrying is how people who hate ni twist stats to try and reassure themselves that that horrible little occupied statelet must be a horrendous place to live
This is more anti-ni nonsense.
Do your research before posting nonsense.
How are you defining segregated education?

So the link above is biased and not factual? You might be used to segregation and see it as normal but people looking from the outside in can see the huge problems in NI. Look even how Covid is turning into a green/orange issue. The North is still a very segrated place. 5.5 meter walls segregating residential areas is not normal.

It is laughable when you refer to NI as a nation. The meaning of a nation is.

a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.

One thing NI is not is a nation. It is a very segrated territory that will cause headaches to ever has to administer it.

downcow

ittakestwo wrote: »

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segregation_in_Northern_Ireland

Above is a link to facts about how "successful" Northan Ireland is.

What is worrying is that the segregation does not seem to be changing despite over 20 yearssince the GFA. 93% of Children still being segrated in 2017, up from 90% in 2006.. How can anyone, sincerely put NI and successful in the same sentence.

What is worrying is how people who hate ni twist stats to try and reassure themselves that that horrible little occupied statelet must be a horrendous place to live
This is more anti-ni nonsense.
Do your research before posting nonsense.
How are you defining segregated education?

pixelburp

Is there an explanation for the high public service employment in NI? It's often mentioned as being especially high and a potential burden come United Ireland. But how did it happen to be this way, seems curious any state would allow that kind of runaway public sector - especially with a sequence of Tory governments (the current one particularly) and a historical hatred of all things Public.

FrancieBrady

Arlene Foster trialing the DUP strategy on Andrew Marr there...if asked 'is there a border between NI and Britain' just deny it. Even when the checks are listed out to you, smile wryly and deny.

ittakestwo

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segregation_in_Northern_Ireland

Above is a link to facts about how "successful" Northan Ireland is.

What is worrying is that the segregation does not seem to be changing despite over 20 yearssince the GFA. 93% of Children still being segrated in 2017, up from 90% in 2006.. How can anyone, sincerely put NI and successful in the same sentence.